So now that Georgia and Russia have officially challenged each other to fisticuffs, how do the two match up?
Georgia has roughly 30k troops serving in the Georgian Armed Forces, with 2,000 of their best troops serving in Iraq. Though small, the Georgian Army is respected by their Coalition partners in Iraq as a highly competent fighting force. They’re equipped with relatively modern Russian weapons, to include some 200 tanks, 450 armored fighting vehicles, Su-25 and MiG-25 fighter jets, and a whole mess of artillery, mortars, surface to air missiles, etc etc.
The Russian bear is still, well… a juggernaut. Ivan’s armed forces weigh in at just over 1 million troops. The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation suffered during the harsh post-Soviet breakup defense cuts, but have since flourished under Vladimir Putin. They are technologically advanced, disciplined, and effectively trained. The Russians are familiar and comfortable operating in the Caucasus Mountain region, both from their unification with Georgia under the Soviet Empire and from their fighting in nearby Chechnya.
So yeah, on the surface, it looks like we’ve got a classic David v. Goliath matchup. Not so fast. As mentioned, the Georgians can be mean little bastards. They’ve got a home field advantage, are furiously calling up reserves, and are fighting a Russian enemy that has one (one!!) supply line over the Caucasus into South Ossetia. That logistics line, ironically enough, will be closed in a few short months by Russia’s old tried and true ally — Old Man Winter.
If Georgia can plug that hole, get creative with their air defense assets, kill a whole mess of Russians, and force this thing into a winter overtime — I wouldn’t be surprised if the international community forces a peace favorable to the Georgians.
Of course if they don’t plug that line, I can see Russia’s tanks bringing Georgia back into the family — the old school way.
–John Noonan
{ 81 comments… read them below or add one }
Here’s the important part.
Does Georgia have any nuclear weapons?
Is it willing to use them?
Since Iraq is winding down, this should be good entertainment. So far BBC seems to have the most evenhanded coverage. ie fewer loaded pejoritives about the russians.
Georgians are not Chechens though.
I dunno, I think the Georgians might have a shot at getting a favorable peace if they’re smart. If they could destroy that supply line, like Noonan said, they have a real chance of beating the Russians. They could use their small air force for this task, that is if it hasn’t been destroyed already. I’m a bit biased towards the Georgian’s cause, since I see this as a blatant land grab by Russia.
It’s SO OBVIOUS that we need to send our top of the line 20 year old M1 Abrams tanks & equally old Bradley Fighting Vehicles to counter their newly built 2008 T-90 tanks & BMP-3 Armored Fighting Vehicles(like the kind NATO ally Greece is getting),along with BTR-90 Wheeled Armored Vehicles(like the kind Sci-Fi Channel always uses in their “made in Bulgaria/Romania monster movies hoping we wouldn’t have a clue & notice).But we have our M109A6PIM Paladins that uses the same caliber barrel that they have been using since the 1960′s-1970′s to counter their artillery,that they(Russia) are still building today.
Listen,Russia is cutting off the western air route that NATO uses to Afghanistan.After Georgia is neutralized,they’ll take out Azerbaijan & then we better hope that Mushariff doesn’t get impeached or become a victim of a coup.If that happens,then unless we perfected teleportation,Afghanistan is cut off from resupply through Georgia & Azerbaijan in the west & Pakistan in the east.
Back to the fact that Russia & china are still building heavy armor weapons & we,along with the rest of NATO,are not,what’s the game plan then?
Seriously,it really seems like Russia didn’t get the memo that the days of fighting with heavy armor is over.Russia still has Airborne(Air Assault) assets don’t they? they also still have WMD’s that they can use.How about also that they could approach Georgia through Azerbaijan & Armenia,what’s to stop Russia from going that route?
“I wouldn’t be surprised if the international community forces a peace favorable to the Georgians.”
Name one conflict the “international community” forced a stop to. If Georgia hits back hard, and the Soviets don’t like it, no one is going to ‘force’ nothing. The war will run its course, or engulf the rest of the region.
I have a question for Roy Smith: Do you really think that Ivan is so well equipped & trained that they can wage an all out war in Georgia against a small but well trained & probably better equipped army, when they couldn’t win a firefight against terrorists in Russia.???
Please don’t misunderstand me I am not at all convinced what Georgia is doing is right, or the fact that we & Israel armed & trained them was so smart either.
Didn’t we equip muslum fighters in the past only to have them bite us on the ass anyway.
I think Georgia is doing what Argentina did in the Falklands back in 1982.
I think they may have over stretched their reach.
Diplomacy would have been a smarter route.
If Russia does go thru Armenia & Azerbaijan wouldn’t that constitute a much larger than expected war on their part & could they keep their army supplied???
The gamble Georgia is taking may not be worth the cost in lives if they can’t hurt Ivan bad enough or hard enough.
Please reply if possible as I am quite interested & will only have the use of this laptop for a short time.
Joe Cottone sr
What is it that makes Georgia, of such great Strategic importance (through the Caucasus mountains) that Russia would be willing to go to war?
Anybody think this is a war of encroachment by Russia? Securing the break-away areas for a future conflict?
How much of this is designed to intimidate & prevent Russian neighbors from cooperating with the U.S., Europe, & NATO? (Czechia & Poland ABM support)
Russia *could* defeat its internal militants anytime it wants to but it would rather use them as a convenient bogeyman. Regional and local instability is in Russia’s interest; it’s what they manipulated to bring the Putin regime into power, after all.
By this time next week the SS-21s will start falling on Tblisi, the Georgians are going to realize that all their trip to Iraq bought them was some secondhand body armour and classes on civ-mil relations, and they’re going to give the Ossetians and Abkhaz anything they want and call it square. And you thought the Russians were swinging their dicks around *before*.
I doubt any georgian soldier will break Simo H
ok… so why is the bbc running the same pic as deftech, but with a different caption? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7548715.stm if those are georgian tanks, as deftech captions, then BBC seems anti-russia… also, debka writes “Georgian tanks and infantry, aided by Israeli military advisers, captured the capital…” there is something much larger going on here between the US, Russia, Israel, and Iran, and Georgia seems like a pawn in the game. is this really a good idea? i’m concerned by the US’s rhetorical support of Georgia. do we really want war with russia, or do we really want them to do something asymmetrical to put a stick in our eye vis a vis Iran?
Gentlemen this is all a decepion look where our forces are in afganistan. russia istrying to choke us off, amd if they succeed e are screwed, trapped with no supply route or an escape out of there, this worries me most, we better remember usa canada are brothers in arms and we best strt fightuing like we love to like in ww2. It looks like to me that vlad the impaler sees our victory coming in that area and is trying to stop it from happening. Let’s hope im wrong but never ever trust a hungry bear.
Well, the georgins started it. And withour the most remote decente reason or even excuse for it.
They’ve been spending 9% GDP on mlitary buildup the laste 15 years.
They’ve been training with the americans and israelis, Bush was recently in Georgia promising ‘protection’. The georgian army has been making lots of wargames and maneuvers.
A ‘Georgian’ but american made spyplan was caught in russian territory and shot down time ago.
And now, after nights of moving troops they receive the ‘go ahead’ from somewhere up and start bombarding osetia, send the tanks and in and leave thousands of bodies, not just russian troops in peace mission under authority of the UN, but thousands of civilians, which 90% of them got russian passports. Osetia has been de facto independet for years
(Sorry for the wrong grammar, I’m having problems writing here)
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/did-us-military.html
http://www.colddeadhands.addr.com/tactics/histmod/histmod.htm
Read that. ‘Nuff said.
If little Georgia can hold the line long enough and kill enough Russians to convince Moscow fighting Georgia isn’t worth it, then I believe a favorable peace is certainly possible, since Beijing and Washington will certainly be pressuring both sides to come to terms.
Joe Cottone sr,
This is part of a big picture event.Russia could maneuver through the Central Asian states of Kazakhstan,Uzbekistan,Tajikistan,Kyrgyzstan,& finally Turkmenistan because,with the exception of Turkmenistan,all these nations are part of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization with Russia AND China.Because Iran is becoming very close allies with Russia & the Shanghai Cooperation Organization,they could allow Russia to move her military through the northern part of her nation(also remember that Russia could move throughout the Caspian Sea & the Black Sea) into Armenia & Azerbaijan.Turkey is the wild card here.Because she is very close to becoming a “radical” Islamic state(forget Ataturk & all of that secular crap with Turkey) & pulling out of NATO,she could also allow Russia to move her armies through Turkey.
Excluding China,Russia could easily get the other Central Asian Shanghai Cooperation Organization members to raise military forces to assist her(& they could be the sacrificial lambs just like they always been) along with Armenia,who is strongly allied with Russia,& Belarus.Maybe Moldova & the Ukraine will stay neutral,but it is more important for Russia,along with Iran to control Georgia&[,as far as Iran is concerned,] Azerbaijan.
If Pakistan,who is a major ally of China & an observer to the Shanghai Cooperation Organization,just like Iran,impeaches Musharif(am I spelling his name right?) & put Islamic radicals in power(those Deobandis created the Taliban & are just as bad as Wahabbis),then Afghanistan could be completely surrounded & cut off.THAT seems to be the major reason why more NATO forces are not being sent in.The token NATO force in Afghanistan are sacrificial lambs to the slaughter.
Gotta love this…
According to the RIA-Novosti news agency, Yuri Popov, A senior Russian diplomat, claims that the Russian bombing of Georgian towns nowhere near Ossetian as misinformation.
The Red cross stated today that the Russians bombed military and civilian targets in the port city of Poti. Which just happens to ship oil to the west…
Gee, who would I believe the Red cross or Russia?
Ok,let’s get REALLY controversial & let the fur fly.If you were to talk to a Christian today who believes in biblical end time prophesy,they would tell you that this is the beginning of the formation of the “Gog/Magog” military alliance made up of principal partners Russia,Iran,& Turkey,along with the former Soviet Central Asian States,Belarus,Georgia,Armenia,& Azerbaijan.
Comparing this war between Russia & Georgia with the 2006 war between Israel & Hezbollah/Hamas,well one of the biggest mistakes that Israel made was that they never deployed their Merkava tanks WITH the Trophy ADS installed on them & they had many Merkavas knocked out by Russian Kornet anti-tank missiles.
Those tanks pictured above,I believe,are Russian tanks,maybe T-90′s,with the Drozd or Arena ADS,or a variation thereof,installed on them.
The scenario with this present war is free publicity & “advertising” on how well Russian weapons work & how “reliable” they are(like how the U.S. did with their weapons systems in desert Storm).This is because to form “Gog/Magog” the other nations in this alliance have to have complete confidence that the Russian weapons work or else they won’t join this military alliance.I predict that you will not see Russian weapons failing in this conflict,but come across as being as successful as our(the U.S.’s) weapons were during Desert Storm(you know,because the international & U.S. press are controlled & manipulated to feed us propaganda).Pakistan will concentrate on working with China to destabilize India & to put India & the rest of Asia under China’s sphere of influence.The biggest threat to Asia are radical Islam(Pakistan) & Maoist terrorists(China).The Philippines has this double problem.India does also.The “Maoists” already have taken over Nepal(& may prevent “Gurkhas” from further serving in both Indian & British armies).NATO & the U.S. need to seriously think about abandoning Afghanistan & getting out before they are completely cut off from resupply by “Gog/Magog” & Pakistan closing & blockading Afghanistan’s borders to the rest of the world.
Anyone who disagrees with this scenario has their head stuck up their butt like an osteritch has its head in the sand.
I think we should just let the russians do what they are going to do and thats to react to an armed attack. Just like after we left veitnam over one million people were masacred because we left, you people that thought we had to leave vietnam are guilty for the death of over one milion people. maybe this time you should let russia try to control part of its world by itself. they might know a little bit more about it then you do. remember the muslims that killed the 100′s of children in russia..or did you forget about the children already. where the killers from and didnt they do it in the name of a separate state apart from russia. yeah russia doesn.t have any reason to trust or give an inch to any of the breakaway states.
THEY DIDNT START THE KILLING BUT I BET THEY’LL DO SOSME NOW
Yupper, and those who know Biblical prophecy know that when the Russian coalition invades Israel, all the west will do is basically say, “You shouldn’t do that…”
Firstly, the picture in the post is Russian tanks, not Georgian.
Second, the Georgians attacked South Ossetian seperatists who have been independent for about 17 years, and have strong ties with Moscow.
As for the Georgians having a home field advantage, that’s dubious. The South Ossetians are the ones with the home field advantage, they being the ones fighting for their homes, and the Russians are their allies.
This is easily the dumbest war fought by a country since the invasion of Iraq. Georgia’s screwed. They’ve already been thrown out of South Ossetia’s capital. There’s no evidence that the Russians are launching a general invasion offensive into Georgia proper.
Anybody who seriously believes that this whole affair is going to be contained in Georgia or STAY in Georgia is sadly mistaken.Azerbaijan will be the next target & maybe Turkmenistan afterwards & then the Caspian sea will be controlled totally by the Russian/Shanghai Cooperation Organization/Iran coalition,& with the Islamic Extremists taking over Pakistan,Afghanistan is lost.
Seriously,unless we develop teleportation,under this scenario,there is no way in hell we can hold on to Afghanistan & ultimately defeat the Taliban & drive them out of existence.
some of you are over reacting,now just by assuming that musharaff is impeached,which he should,then please understand that there is a ELECTED GOVERMENT IN PAKISTAN BY THE PEOPLE.,and it is a moderate goverment.the religious parties have never won power,and never will.They survive purely because of foreign inteference.I know this because unlike mr smith,i live there.
as for georgia,its yet another usa puppet,now lets see if the americans actually do something,or just move away,as they at other times!!! In a straight war it would not last more than a week,if that.Lets hope All the conflicts stop,and,as song goes “all we are looking for,is love in a peaceful world”..aslaam alakium
“as for georgia,its yet another usa puppet,now lets see if the americans actually do something,or just move away,as they at other times!!!”
Well, here’s another contestant for evil’s cheerleader.
Here is some background, especially needed by the noobs who think Georgia’s attack was unprovoked…
http://www.rferl.org/content/South_Ossetia_Crisis_Could_Be_Russian_Chance_To_Defeat_Siloviki/1189525.html
No-one here even knows about the oil line through the area, which happened to be blown on tuesday?
Here is some background, especially needed by the noobs who think Georgia’s attack was unprovoked…
http://www.rferl.org/content/South_Ossetia_Crisis_Could_Be_Russian_Chance_To_Defeat_Siloviki/1189525.html
No-one here even knows about the oil line through the area, which happened to be blown on tuesday?
Roy, nobody has yet offered to fight Russia on behalf of Georgia. Not in the cards, at least this shuffle.
Yeah Russia may have brand new tanks, but they are no match for the US. We could bring them to their knees at any time. Check this post out:
http://www.mcdonalds.com/corp/values/mcdonald_s_russia.html
Apparently the Russian military is funded by the glorious double quarter pounder with cheese…
All we need to do is stop the shipment of Happy Meals to Moscow and they would surrender in a week.
I am not rooting for anyone, really don’t care what happens, but I do feel kind of bad that Georgia has fought and died for the US’ adventure in Iraq, but when the shit hits the fan in their own country, and the US is like, sucks to be you. Not worth it though.
Georgia started it, and Russia escalated it. Dumb, but that is what politicians do. Start wars, but forget about what comes next.
This is very good news for the Cold warriors, and conventional war advocates. Good old fashioned state on state, mil to mil conflicts. Now we can buy more F22′s DDG, subs, hypersonic bombers..etc. The expansionist Russia fear is back. Looking bleak, since China killed that dream yesterday with the Olympics.
Georgian officials are now claiming that their armed forces have destroyed the Roki Tunnel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_South_Ossetia_(2008)#cite_note-100
http://www.newsgeorgia.ru/geo1/20080809/42301114.html
The second link is in Russian but it includes a picture of what they claim to be the tunnel being blown up.
“Georgia started it, and Russia escalated it.”
Yeah, except for the whole Russia starting it and Georgia finishing it, that’s exactly right.
Does anybody know if the Georgian & Russian Olympic teams have found out yet that they are at war with each other? now that has to be a weird situation in the Olympic Village.
Why are we assuming that this war will be fought by the rules? Russia has other ways to get into Georgia.Iran & Armenia could allow them free passage to travel through their nations & attack Georgia from the south,or Russia could attack Georgia from the Black Sea.I’m sure Russia still has ships,including amphibious ships in the Black Sea.
“Yeah Russia may have brand new tanks, but they are no match for the US. We could bring them to their knees at any time.”
If you think imposing a McDonald’s embargo will bring the Russians to their knees,then you have forgotten that Russia also sells oil & natural gas to Europe.The M1 Abrams is long in the tooth & can only be rebuilt so many times before the frame finally gives out.The same goes for the Leclerc,Challenger 2,& Leopard 2 tanks.Also,the M1 Abrams has no active defense system the the Israeli’s Trophy ADS to protect it from Russian Kornet anti-tank missiles.
I also believe that the Russian T-90 tanks are not like the “monkey models” they sell to foreign nations.The Abrams would have to go head to head with thr Russian T-80 & T-90 tanks to see who would come out ahead,but Russia has also had time to study our battle tactics from both Desert Storm & Iraqi Freedom.
One improvement that we could make on our M1 Abrams,besides an active defense system to protect our tanks from anti-tank missiles,would be if we upgraded our M1 Abrams tank guns to the new Rheinmetall 120mm L/55-caliber tank gun(versus our present 120mm L/44-caliber tank gun).Only the Marines should have the shorter compact 120mm L/44-caliber tank gun because of their amphibious assault mission.Also,we need to put a new longer gun on our M109A6PIM Paladins.The international version has a L/52-caliber gun,but our domestic models still have the short L/39-caliber guns on them.What kind of sense does that make?
“Yeah, except for the whole Russia starting it and Georgia finishing it, that’s exactly right.”
LOL. Yeah, that must be why the Georgians are in full retreat and the Russians have bombed the crap out of targets all over Georgia. They victoriously “liberated” SO, and then ran away. Makes perfect sense.
Well, Georgia’s already throwing up their hands and saying they have had enough.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm
And as soon as they’ve got their positions secure in Abkhazia and S. Ossetia and have finished off the bombing runs of “stuff that’s really expensive for Georgia to fix”, probably later this afternoon or tomorrow AM, Russia will say they are satisfied that the Ossetians and Abkhazians are secure from Georgian aggression, etc. and it’s all over.
Roy
thanks for your comments..Why i say that is because i deal with the people who are the heart and soul of Pakistan,and the vast majority do not want anything other than the basics of life.Clean safe water,food,medical help,and work,and education.Nothing else is important.Just because some one tries to convert you to islam,does not mean he or she is an extremist.In our short exsistance as a country all we have had is power struggles,wars,poverty,being played by various powers.But we are still here,and will always be,yes so many things are wrong in pakistan,but we are sorting it,and inshallah we will.
All world does not know the truth. Please rescue my children. We die for famine in cellars. Go here and learn(find out) the truth about that as the Georgians scoff at us! RESCUE US!!! http://southosetia.wordpress.com
It
The advantage that Russian T-90 tanks have over M1 Abrams tanks today is simply this,the Russians have a tank factory open & churning out tanks.They can potentially churn out as many T-90′s as the Americans churned out Sherman Tanks in WWII.We(th U.S.) have a finite number of tanks because we closed down our factories over a decade ago.The only thing we can do with our finite number of Abrams tanks is rebuild,refurbish,& recycle the same tank frames over & over again,but we’ll still not have any more tanks than we did yesterday.The Russians could potentially build upwards of 40,000 T-90s.
“my poor osetian people, my poor lands
“Georgians scoff at us! RESCUE US!!!”
what are the readers of this blog meant to do? Mobalize and roll out with Optimus Prime at the front of the convoy? Seriously dude most here in the west don’t give a crap about alledged attrocities unless GWB is the villan. Seriously don’t hold your breath for million strong anti war marches in places such as London, New-York, Washington etc, like i say if it ain’t GWB playing the monster you won’t build a fanbase.
Yes, war is horrible and you have to feel for the innocent civilians caught up in this mess.
But there is no doubt that Russia has planned this. The fact that Russia is bombing civilian targets and port cities is a clue that they just want the land and eventually the oil.
I bet the Russians pull what they did in WWII. I bet they refuse to pull out of Ossetia. They will claim that Georgia will never live at peace with Ossetia and that to protect the “Russian” citizens, Russia needs a permanent presence in Ossetia.
Besides if what Inga said is true, someone needs to protect the Ossetia people from having to eat their own mustaches….
It appears that this conflict has given rise to the first Black Sea naval combat in living memory.
Russia will continue to bomb the crap out of Georgia until the World gets cranky and begs them to stop, the same way Israel did in Lebanon. Russia will walk away objectives met, with little or no repercussions.
Georgia was naive to think that the US or Europe would come running to its aid.
The US was more then likely hoping this would happen so they could see what Russia really has available.
Russia has been waiting for an opportunity to let off some steam against a US Ally, they want to get the point across that they wont accept US meddling in its region and on its door step they way the US have, installing missile tracking stations on the lands of Russian neighbours. – Would the US stand for such a move? Maybe installing missiles on Cuban soil?
“
“Besides whopever started it the russians apper to be making complete assholes out of themselves in the eys of the rest of the world now moving into Georgia undisputed territory.”
Yeap. Maybe because its propaganda? Maybe because the NATO controlled press depicts them this way?
The thing is clear, georgia bombed osetia.
Then, later, russia enter to protect osetia.
Georgia retreat a bit but keep bombing osetia.
“The thing is clear, georgia bombed osetia.
Then, later, russia enter to protect osetia.”
This is the problem, you are swallowing, gulping down the story from your sides perspective – Russia without even waiting for any sort of third party to find out what the timeline of events really was. You might be dead sure of the facts but down in georgia they might say (and i think they do) that Ossetian forces were attacking the georgians, now who do i believe, no-one at the moment i shall keep an open mind until more facts emerge as i’m sure the vast majority or non-Russians and non-goergians will, it might hurt that were not rooting for your side but thats tough, its just the way it is. now onto this:
“The russians have captured blacks, yes, black soldiers who were with georgians troops trying to get into osetia so they could continue the killings. Americans of course, as its their body armour, their uniforms, their spyplanes, their intelligence support. But yeah, continue with the title ‘Georgia vs Russia’, instead of NATO and all its puppets plus its media in another campaign of innocent and unnecesary bloodshet for who knows what reason’”
ZOMG they captured a darkie he must be a yankee! Seriously dude your really pumping out the crap what with claiming NATO and the media is supporting Georgia its not even worth answering such stupid and childish assertions
If this is what Russian propaganda has done to you and others like you in Russia i feel sorry for you and deeply worried for the rest of the planet, its like the rantings of a bunch of lunatics.
“But being part of an invasion army in foreign countries is a shame, an insult to the idea of respect, decency and good-faith ”
Lol wut! hold up dude you wrote the above and Russian troops who your rooting for are right now stomping across georgia firing at will!
There are more than 3.000 mercenaries, both american paid and NATO’s forces. They are being questioned right now.
“Seriously dude your really pumping out the crap what with claiming NATO and the media is supporting Georgia its not even worth answering”
You are beyond repair.
“you have no mind, you have order-processing-computer in your head, whatever the boss says goes”
Just to let you know that here in the west free thinking and having opinions that differ from our goverments is not an offence to the state like it is in Mother Russia, my point is we do not have to go with the official version of events, we are free to think what we like therefore your comments about doing whatever the boss says really are fantastical,unfortunatly however in Mother Russia its rather different in that not following the boss can lead to much unpleasantness. I guess its no wonder your peddling the propaganda…
What am I reading in this forum?
Holier-than-thou U.S. Americans criticizing the short Russian incursion in South Ossetia?
U.S. AMERICANS CRITICIZING THE SHORT RUSSIAN INCURSION IN SOUTH OSSETIA ? ? ?
Get the Hell out of Iraq and of Afghanistan before you ever open your dirty mouthes again, you MISERABLE Nazis!!!
What are you talking about? I’m not russian, and please stop using words like freedom of speech, in the loving west its a crime to even investigate the 2
“in the loving west its a crime to even investigate the 2
America refused to get into the 2nd world war until we were attack at Pearl Harbour…The war would have been lost if America had not participated.., but then again America could not have won the war without all the other nations that participated…As for the holocaust..It really happened and it was as bad as history records…worse really when you consider not only were 6 to 8 million Jews murdered but also another 6 to 8 million Christians atheists, and others also murdered..35 million, mostly russians also lost their lives in the military..Anyone who says otherwise is a liar… I remember the war.. and I have films of death campls, etc..It is too bad humanity is such slow learners that we did not learn from that horrendous war… But Sometimes war is necessary to stop madmen
Pearl harbour was a set up.
Roosevet provoked it and knew it was coming.
There is enough evidence to prove it.
He ordered american planes to be painted as chinese and anhilited japanese cities with incidendiary bombs, the japanese discovered it and attacked the american fleet. The american bloques japan, forced the british against their will to betray japan leaving them backstapped and rounded by american and their allies turning on them all because of american intervention.
The concentration camps are real, as the japanese and chinese are, but there was no real plan to anhilite noone. It was made up as the war was going on to give it more legitimacy and justify the dead of so many american in one of the many european wars that the american had nothing to do there. It was deliberately planned, proved by the joke called the nurenmberg ‘trials’ were magic stories and confessions were signed through torture of the loser side, the germans, they confesed whatever the americans told.
The ‘trial’ was, and still is a shame of the legal system, there was no traslator, no lawyers, hell the jury was made of american generals!.
That was all the ‘proof’ about the holocaust.
After that the forbid to investigate it, right now there are political prisioners in europe, lawyers, historians, reporters, all kind of people who dare to question the ‘official truth’ are behind bars.
There is no evidence of either bodies or the infrastructure for such a massive task. Nor is the accounting of civilians, the numbers don’t match. 1 million people may have died, because it was a war, and the prisioners were the first on the list for food and supplies. If thet wanted them dead they could have killed them right there, why bother keeping them for years! It’s a lie, just like the Maine used to go after Spain in the cuban war, just like the tonkin incident, just like everything your lying white house spokesman tell.
I’m not a conspiracist, i do believe the moon landing, I don’t believe in secret groups organizing the goverments, I just care about what the governments do, what their actions are, what their laws are. Yes, the 11S official theory is bullshit, don’t know exactly what happened, but it’s 100% clear that they are hiding something, the comision should be reopened and given full authority. I may even go to the point of admiting that maybe, maybe they have a reason to hide it, maybe one of the buildings was a secret cia headquarters of something like that, maybe the attackers use some advantage that for national security reason must remain classsified, but don’t tell that what the government tells is real. And by the way, I don’t care much, accidents happened, there are crazy people out there outside of mental facilities, some crime may happen from time to time, but the totalitarian laws approved with that excuse, as with the fake anthrax, that concers me, the goverment is very powerfull and should be look upon with caution, power corrupts, and big power as is the excuse of terrorism, is very danger.
Laws don’t cease to exist because we are at war, they are explicitely design for war, it is at these moment when they are needed most, in these times of emotions, hatred, and suffering is when we have to be carefull not to kidnapp or kill innocents. And americans talking about innocent killed during the world war…you know, you launched to nukes on civis, just to prove your point, scare the soviets, or augment your ego, you didn’t have to do that, the japanese fleet and aire force were destroyed, their country under blockade, they weren’t a theat. It was a war crime.
“Hey, cheap Anglo biomass, why don’t you quote your two Fuehrers Bush and Blair a bit for us?”
Daddy let you on the pc again i see, sigh, anyway you do know Blair has long been gone from his previous job as Prime minister. Once again you make yourself the laughing stock of defese tech.
“Pearl harbour was a set up.
Roosevet provoked it and knew it was coming.
There is enough evidence to prove it. (and a whole lot more trash spouted)”
Congratualtions you take the prize of most demented poster on this board, FFB is not a patch on your insanity. (sorry FFB but this guy is leagues more deluded then even you, which is really saying something)
Jimbo, you want books on why Pearl Harbour was a set up?
(If I were american and someone told me one the most important things in our life was a lie I would be intriged and asked for more information so I could verify the claims)
John Toland
“Did it occur to you they were ready for a Georgian surprise attack because a: they had the Georgian command wired for sound or b: it’s a good idea to keep high-readiness units in areas that might become a problem?”
A) Maybe.
B) The Russians don’t HAVE any high-readiness units. Their military is in shambles. That means they had to make extraordinary preparations to get the 58th up and running without clogging the streets with broken-down vehicles.
This is a military board. You should know something about the military before you open your yap. Like logistics, for instance.
Vercingetorix, so, the russians can’t have spies? or intelligence? or any kind of rumours or information or knews of georgians troops moving in? they live in another planet and all the growing military budget of the georgians, their wargames, training, all of that are thins that the russians never heard of, their troops are all stationed in siberia hunting bears, they would never have troops in their frontiers near a historical conflict, or a region where lots of other guys are preparing to move in, they don’t have spyplanes or sats or old-fashion spiess, only the US have them right?
So, you accused of lunatics those who dare question the official 11S story(tm, trademark, like walt disney stories), but suggest that somehow the russian either magically bombed their city from the enemy front or make the georgians attack osetia somehow
“B) The Russians don’t HAVE any high-readiness units. Their military is in shambles. That means they had to make extraordinary preparations to get the 58th up and running without clogging the streets with broken-down vehicles.”
Yeah,the Russians don’t have KBR to supply all their needs like we do. That’s why the U.S. has the strongest & greatest army in the world,because WE have KBR to support us.
It looks like that Russian army in shambles is kicking Georgia’s ass. Damn you American advisers,where are you when Georgia needs you?
Irony…
Russia used military force to prevent Chechnya from separating from Russia.
Russia is using military force to help Abkhazia & South Ossetia to break away from Georgia.
For those who don’t know Georgia is directly south of Chechnya.
http://encarta.msn.com/map_701511685/chechnya.html
I wonder if the “wonderful peacekeeping” Russians (I am being sarcastic) will build a wall in Ossetia to “protect” the Ossetians. Berlin Wall part 2.
I think that this “flexing” of Russian muscle is to make them feel like a real power again. They are trying to prove to the world that they are a mighty military force by invading a puny country right next to them. They are like the high school yard bully. They pick a small country close by and then bomb civilians. Yeah, tough, really tough…
I love when Ukraine threatened to block Russian shipping. That brought an interesting response from russia, “This is most unexpected” they said. Yup just like in real life, stand up to the bully with numbers and he folds.
Yeah, an american talking about bullying… with a dozen carrier groups in front of all the countries you like to ‘ensure’ behave acordingly… so your 800 or more military bases in 70 countries…
If you read what Putin said, it was unexpected because they say they are friends and then suddenly betray them.
He also said that the US hang Sadam for destroying 5 villages, now the Georgians destroyed 11, and what is the US doing?
Question,
Lol, no comment about the Berlin wall? I am an American by birth, and I have German ancestry.
Neither trust Russian “peacekeeping”.
Oh, and by the way, you have no one fooled with the upside down question marks. You are about as Spanish as I am you KGB agent you…
Ptsfp, you know, I consider myself kind of libertarian, I don’t usually like the government or burocrats, I think society works perfect withour a government or a state, of course a transition would need time but i do believe a better world could be possible without taxes and laws governing our morality, it would be more efficient and more free. So, I’m just the opposite of a communist, I want 0% government, and 100% private property, although I prefer it the property was aquired legally and through legitimate means, just property. I’m not against violence or defense, it just that I’m against initating it, if you are attacked, legitimate defense, but initiating the use of force is a crime, a real one, not like those crimeless victims like ‘burning a flag’ or ‘buying a us flag made in china’, so, i hate communists, and the urss, i explained before that i even prefered a europe ruled by hitler than the europe ruled by stalin, the point is, you didn’t, you gave East Europe to the soviets, hell you even start the whole war ‘trying to protect Poland’ and ended with Poland destroyed and ruled by the iron boot of the urss, great rescue! You promised full protection to a bunch of fascist generals in poland who were abusing poor civilian germans who were put under polish ruled by the unjust and vengeancefull treaty of versailles. You basically started what Roosevelt called, with his own words, “The Unnecesary War”, there’s a new book with this exact title. It has a lot of other well proven ‘gems’ of your might leader and all powerfull president. Even after dead, he still continues his dream of bringing more wars and destruction to the world thanks to a carrier in his name.
So the Berlin wall was not a good idea, had I lived during the russian revolution I would have fight against the bolcheviks. But, the berlin wall is not the only one, there is the Koren DMZ, a frontier who still separed families and that the koreans of both sides wanted to end, but your military presence doesn’t help, indeed, just so you can keep troops near china you are stopping the inminent reconciliation, not so good.
And yes, I’m a spaniard, ask whatever proof you want, although I don’t see the relevance.
Go away question, we are bored of you here and you are lowering the standards of the debate with your tin foil crap such as no holocaust and the earth is flat.
http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm
This is ‘Questions’ web site btw people.
Jimbo,
your a nit arn’t you, i don’t respond to your absurd alt-history lessons because they are utter garbage worthy of nothing more then laughter and full scale mocking. Don’t bother responing to me in person as i have no more time for internet-jesters such as you. Have fun learning about the holocaust at your local library, douche.
btw i’m a brit, you douche.
Yeah, learning about how your president Churchill prepared and instigated the Second World War by giving an imposible and ilegimate full protection guarantee to the Polish was not important isn’t?
Learning that Churchill was the first to order the air bombing of civilian cities is not important?
Of course you won the war, you wrote history, but there are still one magic thing called books, where historians dig out through official papers of the time. So, you don’t want to know about your country’s history? You have more importante things to do like, protecting your ego and the version you were given as a child, it would hurt to know most of whay you believe in is a lie. Being lied to like a sheep hurts. I understand, you can go to your important tasks, like warmongering the nuking of iranians.
Jimbo, praise the country full of false truths and empty promises right? I say pity the fool that believes there is. Pearl Harbor was not set up by anyone excluding Yamamoto. You’re an idiot. Don’t bother replying, cause I won’t. Other than this, I will not argue with someone who does nothing to try and change a supposed oppressive government. Granted it won’t work, but it would be funny to see you try.
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guys….. if russians did not bomb Georgia then why was there a frikin bomb blowing out my apartment window shacking everything all the way in rustavi?
by the way rustavis in Georgia….