The Marine Corps has issued thousands of new body armor vests that are lighter, more comfortable and allow more freedom of movement than the current vest, but offer less ballistic protection than the Corps’ standard-issued armor.
The so-called “scalable plate carrier” uses the same enhanced small arms protective plates and Kevlar ballistic inserts as the Corps’ Interceptor body armor and modular tactical vest, but in a more streamlined, less bulky package than vests issued to most Marines.
So far the Corps has fielded about 5,500 of the plate carriers, made by Eagle Industries of Fenton, Mo., throughout the three Marine Expeditionary Forces, but the vest is primarily intended for Leathernecks deployed to the western Pacific region and parts of Afghanistan, officials with Marine Corps Systems Command said.
In February, Marine Commandant Gen. James Conway fired a shot across SysCom’s bow in an interview with Fox News during his trip to Iraq and other Middle East war zones. Then, he wondered why the office responsible for equipping Marines chose the current MTV — which Leathernecks have nicknamed the “Hesco” after the sand-filled wire-and-burlap barriers that protect remote bases from enemy fire.
He then ordered SysCom to come up with a new design, even though the Corps had already shipped 84,000 MTVs to the war zone.
“We put the last 25,000 [MTVs] on hold, and I asked, ‘How is it that we got to this point? What was our pre-selection survey like and wear test like to the extent that we’ve got this thing now in large volume,’ ” Conway said during an Aug. 18 interview. “Frankly, we’re hard pressed to understand.”
Despite the plate carrier order, nearly six months after the commandant’s request SysCom still hasn’t followed through with a replacement for the MTV.
“We are currently gathering data and information from Marines returning from OIF and OEF,” said SysCom spokeswoman, Capt. Geraldine Carey, in an Aug. 7 email statement to Military.com. “Once all the data is collected and analyzed, we will approach industry for possible new designs and or changes to the current body armor.”
The new plate carriers are essentially a slimmed-down version of the MTV, with larger arm holes, thinner shoulder straps and a shorter chest profile. The reduction in weight and lower silhouette of the plate carriers “would allow greater mobility with reduced thermal stress in high elevations, thick vegetation and tropical environments,” SysCom said.
In 2004, the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit purchased plate carriers for its Marines during a deployment to the scorching deserts of southern Afghanistan. Since then, many troops have favored the uncomplicated plate carriers over their more weighty counterparts, which incorporate ballistic yokes, chin guards, groin protectors and various ballistic add-ons, depending on the mission.
“Now the Marines who are wearing [the MTV] repetitively don’t like it so much,” Conway explained. “It is heavier. It gives a little more protection — that is one of the net positives with it. We still need a lighter vest that gives us the same amount of protection.”
In March 2007, the Corps received an “urgent needs statement” from field commanders requesting the plate carriers for forces in Afghanistan and units deployed to Asia — where hot, jungle environments make wearing the 30-pound MTV impractical. Since then, the Corps made plans to buy nearly 10,000 plate carriers and has made them available to vehicle crewmen as well.
“For the most part, we think the vest has particular application in Afghanistan because, once again, if you’re climbing up and down mountains you want to be protected, but you don’t want to be weighed down so much that you’re just going to be sapped,” Conway said of the SPC vest.
The issue of body armor and the balance between ballistic protection and mobility has been a controversial one, particularly since casualties mounted in Iraq from powerful roadside bombs and armor-piercing sniper rounds. As the blast injuries increased, the services added on new ballistic protection to their vests.
But the boost in protection came at the cost of comfort and weight; some vests topped 35 pounds with various accessories and stronger plates. That prompted some commanders to ask for leeway in how they outfit their troops, given the security environment and the type of terrain units operated in.
“I like the idea of modularization as long as you had some pieces that you could add or subtract” from the carrier, said David Woroner, a body armor expert and president of Survival Consultants International. “Personal protection should be just that, it’s a personal choice at some point.”
In January, the deputy commander for Marines in Iraq, Maj. Gen. John Allen, told Military.com he was on the verge of allowing his troops in Anbar province — which had seen a steep reduction in violence and roadside bomb casualties — to strip down their armor, leaving their chin guards, groin protectors and side plates at the base while on patrol.
That prompted a sharp rebuke from superiors in Baghdad who still believed the risk from IEDs was enough to keep Marines buttoned up behind the MTV’s full ensemble.
But now it seems the restrictions have softened.
“A lot has to be left to the commander. Threats will vary in different locations,” explained Conway, who wore the SPC during a recent trip to the Middle East. “You may have a sniper threat in one place and a shrapnel threat in another. You may have a commander whose force mainly rides to the fight and another one that has to climb up the side of mountains.”
“That we’ve got these various [types of armor vest] is marvelous,” Conway said.
– Christian (with help from contributor Kimberly Johnson)
{ 31 comments… read them below or add one }
“We put the last 25,000 [MTVs] on hold, and I asked, ‘How is it that we got to this point? What was our pre-selection survey like and wear test like to the extent that we’ve got this thing now in large volume,’ ” Conway said during an Aug. 18 interview. “Frankly, we’re hard pressed to understand.”
This is why the USMC rocks…they can face reality and make changes when needed.
Just think if the Army could come to the same realization about its fail ACU battledress…
These smaller vests seem ideal on longer mission with more mountain humping. Great job to the Corps for realizing what they needed and going after it instead of trying to force everybody to use one item like a cure all.
Finally common sense enters the picture, the whole point of the IBA and MTV was to reduce injuries, however at the cost of the Soldier’s mobility.
Plate carriers and lighter vests will allow us to get after the bad guys
These lighter, lower threat vests seem more appropriate for known offensive missions, where the US has the advantage using speed, not the more common patrol, or defend missions, where IED’s and snipers are always waiting for you on every corner; and the more protection you have the better, even at the expense of mobility. It would be great if they could have both, depending on the mission and location, and other known variables. Overall, I think the I-OTV is probably better than the MTV. Weight sucks, but so does taking a bullet in the gut, if you could have prevented it.
What about Pinnacle Armor’s SOV
What about using the ghost dance to make our troops immune to bullets instead of dragonskin? It’s cheaper, the vendor isn’t under indictment for selling armor with faked NIJ labels to the military and it weights a lot less. Even less than our current armor, which dragonskin certainly isn’t. It’s got some minor issues with bullet penetration, but so does dragonskin….
What’s so new about this? First they cry about how they don’t have enough protection (aka, Black Hawk Down, etc.) So they come up with a suit to actually protect our soliders more thoroughly (i.e. the Interceptor) and they complaint about weight or heat? So we’re back to the same old thing a worthless vest with a couple of cermaic plates, and this is what they call “updated body armor”? I can’t believe that they will allow something so old and proven to be so ineffective to be issued to our soliders risking their lives for us every day (aka Ranger Body Armor used as far back as the early 80′s)
This is as genius as the new helmets that do not cover the back of our brave ones’ necks. We’ve lost more soliders from snipers because of head tramas since these have been issued.
The contract with Colt is about up. What’s next? Water guns?
Why they are still using Kevlar? Isnt better fibers already avaible like Zylon and such?
The Army seems to have sticked with the kevlar+ceramic combo like they did to the M-16. Even if there is something better avaible,they say they are waiting for something “revolutionary”. I bet they still dream of synthetic spider web.
Oh, i just checked and zylon has short life-time. But there sitll is dyneema and many others…
There’s never going to be a perfect solution. Too much armor and the troops can’t function. Not enough equals needless deaths and casualties. I think it shows promise that the USMC has some leadership that realises this and is acting accordingly.
Perhaps in the near future there will be a modular system availible. The troops could add or remove sub assemblies depending on their mission role. A soldier on a short range foot patrol in Iraq or as a gunner in a vehicle has different needs than a Marine patrolling the mountains in Afghanistan. The protection is useless if it’s kicking your ass just wearing it.
The same can be said of the helmets. I think I would prefer the newer smaller helmet to my original, giant mongoloid head K-pot. I remember never being able to tilt my head back enough whenever in the prone, I’d rather lose a little protection if it means I can do my job easier.
I think there’s two reasons why we don’t see more advanced fibers being used. The first would be that kevlar has been arouind for a long time now. They know how it reacts to heat, cold, light, age. The second is cost. I think it would be a hard sell to try to get a suit costing tens of thousands approved, even though for each death or maiming it prevented would save hundreds of thousands.
In the end, whatever armor is worn, there is always a way through or around it. But, that doesn’t mean far more can be done.
Face it ppls there is only one solution fore this…….mecha!!!!
or ok powered suits…we even have a great place to test them georgia….no not atlanta tiblisi the russians will turn it into a battleground soon and start raping and looting in the name of humanitarianism.
links..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELhtXtnV3pg&feature=related
theres also the story and video on this site of some armor
yes ok so the video is just kind of…off topic but a point
The reason why they’re sticking with Kevlar+ceramics is partly cost. All the other alternatives are probably better in at least weight, protection, or flexibility, but cost significantly more to manufacture.
As much as its depressing, reality requires solutions to be judged on preformance and cost.
dyneema ? Isn’t that what the new braided fishing lines are made of
We’ve lost more soliders from snipers because of head tramas since these have been issued.
Page, did you actually read your own message? Snipers causing head trauma because of the helmet? Snipers don’t cause head trauma, they cause bullet wounds. The new helmets actually cut down on blunt force head trauma due to the improved padding versus the old PASGT. There is no evidence the higher brim on the ACH has increased casualties.
IBA works very well, but it is so bulky sometimes you have to squeeze into the front seat of a humvee. The Army’s latest IBA design cut down weight by 3 pounds and made it a little more ergonomic. The Corps’ MTV added even more kevlar padding than the IBA.
OFF topic TB The Army had begun issuing a new helmet, dubbed the Advanced Combat Helmet. Made of a new type of Kevlar, the helmet is stronger and lighter than its predecessor.
But the new helmet has a critical flaw, Poffenbarger contends. It is about 8 percent smaller than the old helmet, offering less protection on the back and side of the head.
In past wars, that might not have been a big problem. In infantry-style combat, soldiers typically are struck in the front of the head as they charge toward the enemy.
But in Iraq, the deadliest threat is from remote-detonated roadside bombs, and many soldiers are getting hit on the sides and back of the head, said Poffenbarger. By Greg Jaffe
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL (08/27/08)
I am currently deployed in Iraq on my 3rd tour. I have showed this new body armor to some of my Marines that I work with. All of us had the same reaction. Another bad piece of gear that they are going to make us wear. The shoulder straps look to narrow and are thick this will place a lot of weight on a small area, remember all the ammo and other gear will be hooked on to the body armor as well increasing the weight on those narrow straps. The narrow straps will also make wearing a pack difficult and uncomfortable. The cut of the armor in the front will make shouldering a weapon hard to do. We had the same problem with the interceptor body armor I guess they forgot that lesson. Another thing it shows is the Marines Corps obsession with the color of coyote brown is still in full swing. I guess it costs to much to use camouflage pattern even though the Army seems to be able to do it with out to much of a problem. I think the best comment I got from a Marine that saw this was
Looks much lighter than the MTV, but I am worried that the shoulder straps will put immense weight density on the marines’ shoulders. And look at that massive gaping side profile…if a marine enteres a building he could be hit from the side and the vital organs would be completely exposed.
I like the fact that it is light, however.
The future is in M5 fibers most likely, or carbon nanotubes (the latter being more applicable to vehicle armor, structural cores).
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Dyneema is reported to be 40% tougher than standard kevlar…but I agree that M5 fiber is the future. I remember reading that some low-quality M5 samples performed much better than expected, even with a flawed production method.
Page,
The problem in the Battle of the Black Sea aka “Blackhawk Down” wasn’t so much a failure of the body armor worn by the Rangers and Delta Force as a failure in procedure. The body armor, as far as I know, worked just fine; in the case of one of the Rangers or Deltas that was killed he took the back plate insert out of his body armor in order to save weight figuring that he wouldn’t be running from the enemy so he didn’t need any extra protection in the back. Unfortunately, he was shot in the back, I think by a sniper, but regardless he didn’t have a plate in the back and the chest plate actually stopped the round from completely penetrating all the way through.
Something else to remember, the Ranger body armor in use at the time was a far-cry better than the old PAGST vests that was standard issue for most units at the time. The old PAGST vests had no inserts nor were they designed to accommodate any inserts and was designed only to protect you from shrapnel and pistol & SMG rounds.
Mike,
I have tried on the new plate carrier, and the shoulders are not an issue. They are sufficiently padded. I haven’t tried wearing it around with a sustainment load on my back, but I’ve worn Paraclete body armor with a heavily loaded assault pack and never had an issue with the shoulder straps. As for shouldering your weapon, it will be easier because the stock will actually fit in the pocket of your shoulder and not sit on the body armor itself. That was the reason for incorporating the rifle stop in the MTV. It is a vast improvement on mobility over the MTV, at the expense of some armor coverage. Most infantrymen are happy with that. From what SysCom has told me, the plate carrier has been getting rave reviews from BLT 1/6 in Afghanistan.
Then again, some Marines will bitch no matter how good a piece of gear might be.
I say the government just gets soft armor with plate pouches and then just have a simple plate carrier such as the blackhawk recon commando chest harness to go over it. I have seen a lot of Operators with it and it seems to be a hit, no complaining.
Here is an example of Recon Marine’s on ship training: http://www.aggressor-group.com/misc/agg_original/images/usmc_paca01_r1_c1.jpg
Or, we could go with Dragonskin that can stop more rounds exponentially than our plates can.
I have another idea, instead of the desk jockey’s that take ideas form marines and soldiers that will never leave the wire, how about we have some multi-COMBAT tour vets get together and design a vest/flak/plate carrier/softarmor that works and is right for once. Thats how Blackhawk gear came about. A Navy SEAL who’s gear failed in combat had enough and made his own company. Yes it is expensive, but then again I haven’t heard of any of their gear fail (Even though I’m sure it does from time to time.)
Yep, Dragonskin is sure great — as long as you make sure to turn and orient yourself so that the round(s) hit(s) directly straight on, and not at an angle (which allows the nasty bullet to slip between the scales. Messy!)
Duh.
I have served in Afghanistan and am currently in Iraq. While in Afghanistan my unit issued us a Black Hawk Plate Carrier. The plate carrier worked great for the mountains. There is no way the MTV could ever work there. Yes it means less armor but being able to close in on your enemy when they wear chest harnesses, pajamas and flip flops is also important.
In Iraq, I am currently wearing the MTV and it is the worst piece of gear I have ever worn. It is extremely heavy, it is very uncomfortable in 115 degree heat and I feel trapped. Yes it might be good if an IED went off, but you know so would a tank. There is only so much you they can ask our backs to handle. I am willing to bet before the MTV officially goes away we will be seeing a lot of back injuries.
Interesting debate. I am a security contractor and I wore the TA 50 with a Eagle Industries pistol/rifleman vest over the top. It worked out pretty good. Then I switched to a Eagle Industries CIRAS(land version–I would recommend the maritime version) with a Tactical Tailor MAV(split front) over the top, and that really worked out well for me. But both of these systems have a lot of nylon, but it is what I prefer because it makes it more modular for me. I can strip down to a vest and a pistol on my belt really easily with this set up.
I think what would be really nice is to try to minimize nylon on a vest, use more breathable materials, have more adjustable plate positioning within the vest, and try to develop vests that put more weight on the hips and less on the shoulders–much like a pack. I have seen some designs that go into that, but they still use way too much nylon to get the job done.
And if we have to put all the weight on the shoulders, then make the shoulder straps wider, not thicker. It gets in the way of a weapon stock or bites into your shoulder when wearing a pack, if you have big thick shoulder straps.
Reduce weight, reduce the bulk, make it easy to build up or strip down the vest system, and make it easy to get in and out of it. Most importantly though, is give the choice to the commanders in the field to make the call about how much guys should be humping around in their respective AO’s. Mobility versus protection is a question that should only be asked and answered by the war fighters out there, and not by some ‘bean counter’ REMF. Semper Fi
I totally agree that there should be different armor for different applications. I think the government should let the soldiers choose for themselves up to a point. they need to have the same protection but can choose the kind that fits them best. Great conversation guys.
I think you guys are totally correct. I also think that soldiers should be given the option of the type and brand they want to use. I understand that their leaders need to tell them what protection level they need based on the type of mission they are on. Great Blog men
As for all you jarheads in Afghanistan with gear issues? CONTACT ME DIRECTLY if you have problems stating your concerns within your chain of command and I will see what I can do as a Marine-Civilian and some senators and congressmen that are PRO-MARINE.
As for the previous poster about the Army v. The Marines? If the Army could be like the Marine Corps? For God sakes man???
There was NOONE IN LINE when I joined the Marines! They were all scrambling into the Army office.
Everyone I had seen lined-up were all soaking up suds with the Army recruiter, talking about BS that wasn’t even possible to begin with and about all the women that they would never get close to…
When I asked many of them as to WHY they didn’t want to join the Marines, they said it was, “Too Tough!”…
Let me also clarify that you can NOT just, “join” the Marines, all you are doing is applying to be transformed into a Marine.
You are not guaranteed that you WILL become a Marine. THEY will either make you a Marine or boot your ass out!
When you are transformed into a Marine, THAT transformation stays with you throughout your entire life, until you die.
Right now there are litterly hundreds of thousands of former active duty Marines sitting quietly on the sidelines, most armed and ready to get back into the fight. All they need is to be asked and they will be on the ground in a heartbeat.
Next time you get a chance to make a lifetime decision, following the herd is NOT the route to take.
Semper Fi!
Throughout the thread, I concur. IOTV is fantastic while motorized. The risk of IED and shrapnel injury outweigh the concern of personal mobility. Direct fire concerns or mobility in the mountains favor the plate carrier. Education of our collective “joes” is the issue, know what to wear and when. We can’t “scale” up after the mission commences.
And yes as a 19 yr vet of the Army, I will break religion and state the USMC is leading the fight in working the plate carrier. I even like the coyote brown kit and armor, imagine the ability to keep the same kit with a uniform change!!! Hopefully the ACU will go the way of the dinosaur, we need a uniform that blends with more than dawn and dusk.
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My MTV fits alright. yeah it's pretty heavy and can chaff the thighs pretty bad. i had to go a size smaller than my old intercepter and synch up the shoulder straps as tight as it will go to make it sit right on me. that actually helped the comfortability quite a bit. I would love to check out the new plate carriers. i thing a plate carrier with some sort of second chance soft body armor would be ideal. the MTV has too much extra fabric. take all that out and it probably wouldn't be so bad.