Lockheed Martin and the greater Dallas-Fort Worth area has been doing an awful lot of hand wringing over the impending doom closure of F-22 assembly lines. Senators John Coryn and James Inafoe, both long time Raptor advocates, have argued that closing the Raptor plants would cause massive “disruptions and layoffs,” and that Congress should green light $531 million for 20 additional F-22s in FY-2009.
Here’s a solution: let the Aussies foot the bill. Australia is so hot for the Raptor, they’d probably trade in New Zealand for a couple of squadrons. And their loyalty can hardly be called into question, Australia has been spilling the same blood in the same mud with us since the first World War.
The real issue is whether or not we can trust them to keep the F-22’s technology under lock and key. Secretary Gates says we can, but Congress hasn’t budged on foreign sales.
If you asked in July, most in the defense community would –in all likelihood– favor keeping the Raptor restricted to the USAF. Then Russia went and invaded Georgia in August and suddenly all those big ticket, Russian-killing weapon systems became cool again.
So with a newly aggressive Russian in mind, let the Aussies keep our production lines open –and perhaps the equally interested Japanese, with an assurance that they don’t use the Raptor to attack Pearl Harbor again– while Congress and the Pentagon figure out just how many jets they want.
Sans the technology security concerns, that’s a win-win solution. We get more superbad Raptors flying for the home team, and the greater number of jets that are pushed through Lockheed’s production lines, the cheaper the F-22 becomes for the USAF to purchase.
Hey, a well-armed ally is a happy ally, y’know?
–John Noonan
Any technology pertaining to the F-22 will be leaked or stolen soon enough. Might as well make a both financially and strategically sound move, and let the Aussies have their Raptors.
Noonan, the article was well written up until this segment,
” –and perhaps the equally interested Japanese, with an assurance that they don’t use the Raptor to attack Pearl Harbor again-“
Even if it’s meant as a joke, that’s pretty juvenile.
Otherwise, interesting window about the topic.
Aussie Raptors why not, hell we were aloud to buy the F-111 when it was cutting edge so why not now, it’s the only (western)fighter out there with enough range too cover our coast line and with the right upgrades it’ll make a damn good strike asset.
Of course the technology will be stolen if we sell overseas, even to our closest so called Allies.
Hell, the top secret tech is probably already in the hands of the Russians, Chinese, and Israelis, so might as well sell to the Aussies, Brits, Israelis, Japanese, Koreans, Canadians. That would at least keep production rolling for a while in case the US decides it needs another Cold War, and wants to buy the original 380 planes.
Since the US Government has lost all sense of fiscal responsibility, and likes bailing out corporations, might as well give LMT a few billion more, for their ‘never to see combat’ aircraft. I think another 20 planes could work, no one at the CBO, GAO, Comptroller would even notice that trivial amount. Who needs to make tough decisions, and be strategic, when you have unlimited resources, and can buy everything your heart desires.
Only problem with F-22 is it’s an air-superiority fighter. Australia’s limited fiscal capability means we can’t buy lots of different types of platforms.
So anything we buy needs to be capable of multi-role. Unlike the US we don’t have numerous strike platforms to choose from. The F-22 doesn’t have an adequate strike capability for our needs.
At the moment our government is tentatively looking at 100 JSF aircraft. But rises in costs mean we’re already looking at procuring 90 JSF for our money. Obviously that number will continue to slide as inflation increases, world economy gets worse, cost of manufacturing materials increase etc etc.
So as good as the F-22 is, it doesn’t match up to what Australia requires of an aircraft that will replace our ageing F-111 and F/A-18 fleets.
Foreign sales do make sense — although that does depend on just how costly stopping then restarting the f22 line would really be.
Do the aussies still want them? After much drama they’ve settled on the f35 which seems a pretty good idea, notwithstanding all the huff and puff about the range of the old f111.
Japan needs an air defense plane sometime past 2020. If they look west in the coming decades, what do they see? Large numbers of last generation Su3X, even larger numbers of increasingly sophisticated j10 types, and true 4th gen fighters entering service. Are new-build eagles with super-avionics good enough? The eurofighter?
By the time Japanese f22s would be deployed I doubt there would be too many secrets left to steal for those interested. Besides which nicking stuff and getting it to work are two different things.
A year ago and this would of been a good idea. But expensive tech does not fit in with the ‘minimise spending’ approach Australia is taking.
Doesn’t anyone have a problem with the treatment of weapons programs as welfare? Why should many jobs lost have anything to do with the military’s procurement at all? I’m amazed those damn pols are so shameless. I’ve got a great idea, let’s keep every single weapon system production line open forever, so no one ever loses their job ever again.
“Doesn’t anyone have a problem with the treatment of weapons programs as welfare? Why should many jobs lost have anything to do with the military’s procurement at all? I’m amazed those damn pols are so shameless. I’ve got a great idea, let’s keep every single weapon system production line open forever, so no one ever loses their job ever again.
Posted by: Dorian at September 11, 2008 06:18 AM“
As you may well remember that stratagy of keeping the factorys churning out weapons didn’t really work to well for the last superpower that tried that, yes i refer to your beloved Soviet empire.
Of course i do wonder if your just a tad butthurt that Australia isn’t purchasing some equipment from the Soviets, sorry Russians instead, yes i think i have hit the nail on the head, if it was Russian gear the Aussie’s were buying i bet you’d be celebrating…
“Noonan, the article was well written up until this segment,
” –and perhaps the equally interested Japanese, with an assurance that they don’t use the Raptor to attack Pearl Harbor again-“
Even if it’s meant as a joke, that’s pretty juvenile.“
Agreed, it was a pathetic attempt at humour, i suggest the author skips the attempted jokes next time if he wants to maintain any sort of credibility.
Even if it’s meant as a joke, that’s pretty juvenile.
Too soon Soda? I’ll give it another 60 years to let the wounds fully heal.
C’mon! Lighten up!
“As you may well remember that stratagy of keeping the factorys churning out weapons didn’t really work to well for the last superpower that tried that, yes i refer to your beloved Soviet empire.
Of course i do wonder if your just a tad butthurt that Australia isn’t purchasing some equipment from the Soviets, sorry Russians instead, yes i think i have hit the nail on the head, if it was Russian gear the Aussie’s were buying i bet you’d be celebrating…“
More trolling BS from our resident 8 year old.
” –and perhaps the equally interested Japanese, with an assurance that they don’t use the Raptor to attack Pearl Harbor again-“
John, I thought it was funny.
Japan and Aus should be able to buy the F-22. Maybe limit the tech on the export version.
i think increasing weapon sales would be good for the US if only to keep those monies out of Russian coffers. it’s bad enough the high price of energy benefits Putin’s cabal, but arms sales only helps them.
Great joke! Keep ‘em coming, I like a good chuckle.
$531 million for 20 additional F-22s in FY-2009.
is that enough money for 20 planes?
“More trolling BS from our resident 8 year old.
Posted by: Dorian at September 11, 2008 08:17 AM“
Ohhh, touch a nerve did i Dorian? I lol’d
The point of keeping production lines open is simple. This isn’t welfare. It’s business.
Lockheed Martin has only one customer. They are prohibited by federal law from selling their products to anyone except for the United States government. It literally requires an act of Congress for Lockheed to sell their product to another party.
Thus, if we want Lockheed to continue to sell to us, we *must* make it economically feasible for them to do so. It isn’t like Lockheed can be expected to participate in the normal marketplace.
I’m a Japanese American whose grandparents fought on both sides of the war and I actually laughed out loud at the Pearl Harbor joke and found it in no way offensive. Keep the good jokes up.
An export version of the F-22 for Australia, Japan, or Great Britain could be a good idea. But I have a feeling the F-35 crowd would sh!t kittens, if the F-22 threatened their sales.
Jimbo Jones it was a pathetic attempt at humour, i suggest the author skips the attempted jokes next time if he wants to maintain any sort of credibility.
heh, thanks for the suggestion. Friendly reminder though… I’m writing on a blog.
That said… Christian is a professional journalist, so you can just skip over my posts if you want solid reporting. He’s pretty good at what he does.
To all others with a funny bone, glad ya’ll chuckled!
Well considering how the US runs foreign weapons trials and then rips the technology off I don’t see how supplying Australia is an issue. A very offensive comment about the professionalism of the people in the Royal Australian Air Force. If you want to find out the capability of the USAF just read ‘Aviation Leak’ or the latest congressional readiness report — both freely available.
You don’t seem to appreciate the cost of bringing a new aircraft into service — let the Aussies foot the bill. Oh we aren’t going on a slow buy we are trying to sort out a procurement crises of some shoddy Boeing shit.
Talking a shoddy Boeing shit how’s the USAF’s Tanker Program coming along? A case of I don’t like the umpire’s decision so I am taking my bat and ball and going home.
“Words/ Posted by: John at September 11, 2008 01:33 PM“
Yeah its all very well saying ‘oh it was 60 years ago get a sense of humour’ but it dosnt get around the fact it was a rather childish jab at the Japanese. Anyway i don’t really care just pointing it out, btw i did lol at it, but that dosnt change the fact it was silly and childish, leasty you take it well and don’t get all butthurt like some here…
Just go ahead and sell the f-22 to Australia! There just about our best friend now days and supporting them doesn’t have any negatives like the support we give to middle east countries like Israel(who on top of all the billions in aid we give them are the number 2 country that spies on us behind China).
Jeff
I assume they would be dumbed down versions? Different software, computer modules, tracking, etc…
Maybe we could sell a squadron to Georgia. They have the oil money to pay for them and I am sure that would make the Russians pleased as punch.
What does trade in NZ supposed to mean? NZ is an independent nation and not a state of Australia. Even if NZ was a state of Australia I am sure Australia would have traded in NZ long ago for a lot less than a couple of squadrons.
We should and need to (for worldwide security) sell Raptors to Japan, Britain, and Australia. But not to Israel. They will sell anything to China if the price is right.
errr…they made ALL 186 Raptors already?
“Here’s a solution: let the Aussies foot the bill. Australia is so hot for the Raptor, they’d probably trade in New Zealand for a couple of squadrons. “
I am assuming you are trying to be funny, and that you know that NZ is a seperate country with it’s own military(albeit under funded and manned).
Sure Australia could invade NZ and attempt to sell it then, but they would need someone else to subsidise the invasion.
The good new is that NZ has massive untapped Natural Gass and Oil reserves. Not to mention the Gold.
So if the US wants to help Australia in this invasion, I am sure that you could sell some more F-22’s.
My first attempt to post didn’t appear, so here goes nothing.
“Here’s a solution: let the Aussies foot the bill. Australia is so hot for the Raptor, they’d probably trade in New Zealand for a couple of squadrons.“
I think you may be kidding about this, but let’s think this through seriously, slightly.
The cost of invading NZ would be quite high and Australia could not foot the bill alone, so they would need backing. Good thing that they are allies with the US. Still the invasion would be a big suck on resources and money.
The good news is that NZ has abandant Natural Gas and Oil supplies that are untapped. Also a extremely large amount of Gold. So you could recoup your cost.
Then the Australians could afford to buy some F-22’s, as well as the superior F-35’s they have already ordered and paid for.
You would think that waiting 17 minutes for a site refresh would be long enough…but no.
Superior F-35? You mean that the F-35 is superior to the F-22?
I’m not offended by the Japanese comment. However, like I said before, it’s juvenile at best. I don’t read DT for jokes — and reading lame jokes like the one in this article makes me feel like I’m reading a discussion board full of kids instead of a professionally written article.
I guess my perceptions of what DT is may be different from others.
Cant people chill out about the joke? Bitching about being juvenile sounds like a juvenile holier than thow.
The nips have a track record of giving our high tech away. They can’t be trusted.
The land of oz are like our own brothers, I’d go to war
for them in a heart beat. Give it to them.
It’s in our best interest.
What about the F14’s we sold Iran back before the Iranian revolution? They are still in service as far as we know, and I believe there are some reports that they were powerful weapons in the Iran/Iraq war, acting like mini-AWACS.
Today’s ally, especially fragile ones, is tomorrow’s threat. Meanwhile we’re giving Pakistan F16’s to “help fight terrorism”? Yeah…not sure about that one. The real story is Pakistan wants some kind of parity with India, or at least deterrence.
Australia and Japan are good examples of countries that support us as close allies. In both cases those countries have been so wanting of the Raptor they’ve even said they’d take a watered down slightly reduced performance version of it. They’d probably agree to purchase them with some delayed delivery. We should sell it to our closest allies in some form even if it means some restrictions.
The long term loss of having the Raptor’s production line shut down is too high for us to allow that to happen. Hell, it’ll even help our export deficit.
Iran’s F14’s have been unready for combat for so long that it is remarkable that they would come up as anything other than a reason the F22 could be sold to Australia, Japan or the UK. We dumb these exports down very slightly, and rely on the fact that a modern system without modern support will be an impressive ornament within a year or two. Reagan gave the Iranian’s a version of the Hawk anti air system, and it did not work a few years later because they did not have the Americans to maintain it. Australia, Japan and the UK are usually better allies than we deserve, but if they do sell us out, it won’t matter because the enemy won’t be able to use the information in a meaningful way. Keeping the F-22 in production for another 2 or 3 years is huge, if we can strengthen our friends at the same time, that is too cool.
We have 120 Raptors already and will have all 180+ by 2011, keeping this production source open is a very good idea.
Well, as an aussie (and a dilettante(is that how its spelt!?!?) on these issues) i dont see WHY we need a mainly dedicated air to air fighter if the JSF will do that to a reasnoble level AND air to mud. As for New Zealand, We’d LOOOVE to sell it, unfortunatley we dont own it!!!
We really just need to make up our minds as far as how we intend to use the F-22. I don’t personally care — I’m not the one who has to fly them or keep them up. It seems to me we have two options if we want to keep the thing as a viable military tool.
First, we could keep it all to ourselves and have it as a boutique weapon, like the B-2. In this case, the current situation is fine. 186 Raptors is enough if we just intend to fly them in small groups in support of lots of other aircraft. Personally, I think this is a waste of resouces and a waste of the plane’s capabilities. But that’s one possibility. If we use it this way, it will probably remain in service for 20–25 years before it becomes too expensive to maintain and they replace it with something else.
Second, we could buy a lot more of the things and use them as the ultimate air dominance weapon. We could buy 380 or so and keep all the secrets to ourselves. This will cost more money, but we will be able to use the plane in a more serious way.
Third, we can use this plane as a significant, but not all-important, part of our air force. We could sell it to our closest allies and trust them to keep it close to the vest. It wouldn’t be our “ultimate secret weapon” anymore, but it would be one more advantage for the good guys.
Either option 2 or option 3 sound better to me than option 1.
As a longterm resident of Japan, and as an Aussie, I can say I’d be very confident that you could trust the Australians with F-22 technology. Comparing Australia to Israel or the Taliban, as some posters have, is ridiculous.
Japan however, I’d be far less likely to trust, not due to planned malice on behalf of JSDF in leaking technology, but because Japanese companies have a long history of corruption, including sales of banned technologies (e.g. nuclear) to countries like China and North Korea.
For example, see:
ttp://thebulletin.org/web-edition/features/japans-struggle-to-limit-illegal-dual-use-exports
”- Four Japanese companies have either knowingly or unknowingly illegally exported sensitive materials that could be used to help build a nuclear weapon.
– Specifically, International Atomic Energy Agency inspectors have found components from Japanese companies at nuclear-related facilities in Libya and North Korea“
This is no surprise to me since I’ve seen stories like this every year here in Japan for the past decade that I have resided in Tokyo. Its the tip of the iceberg worthy of a much longer article.
And regarding the lighthearted Pearl Harbor quip, I’ve noticed a growing hypersensitivity post 9/11. Maybe those living in the U.S. don’t notice it, but increasing levels of extreme reactions to light hearted or critical comments are a very dangerous sign that a nation is heading down a worrying ultra-nationalistic path (ever see the nutcase reactions of North Koreans to and comment that could even remotely be taken as criticism?). Don’t take yourselves so seriously.
Speaking as an Australian the advantage for us in purchasing the F-22 is more related to its range and super cruise ability than its stealth capabilities. Essential they would be taking over the role of long range strike and recon that our current fleet of F-111’s perform which the F-35 is not really suited to. Ideally Australia should replace its F-111’s with F-22’s and continue on with the F-35 purchase albeit with a squadron of F-35B’s to be flown from the two new Amphibious Assault ships we are building thus giving Australia a more flexible air combat capability.
As a resident of Australia and member of the Australian Defence Force I find the doubts in our ability to fulfill the requirements of an ally disturbing.
However I take heart knowing that these comments likely haven’t come from Service personnel.
Having worked alongside US service personnel numerous times I can say that we do operate well together and the professionalism of everybody is faultless.
@ Matt “albeit with a squadron of F-35B’s to be flown from the two new Amphibious Assault ships we are building thus giving Australia a more flexible air combat capability“
Hahaha nice idea. Not able to be carried out without vast improvements.
The Royal Australian Navy is having enough manning issues at the moment. Looked into recent reports of Collins-class Sub capabilities? I’d like to know where the Sailors to man both of the Amphibious Assault Ships would come from.
And I’d like to know where the F-35B maintainers and aircrew would come from. Even if the federal government found a bucket of money to supply the aircraft.
Both Royal Australian Navy and Royal Australian Air Force don’t have enough technicians to keep these airborne. Let alone operational.
It’d be nice to be able to support F-35B operations but the Australian Defence Force has very big recruitment and retention issues that can’t/won’t be solved for a long time.
If the F22 is made exportable then the leaking of tech is inevitable, regardless of who the USA sells it to, Australia, Japan etc. I’m Australian and I do not think selling us the F22 is a good idea, mainly for the sake of the US to keep its competive edge thus the West but also because I dont think Australia can afford to buy many of the planes they are so expensive, is our small order really going to be enought to keep the production lines open?
I think we Australians are given too much credit these days in military terms. Yes we have a very proffessional military force. But the tech will end up in most likely Chinese hands etc, Australia wont willingly sell/distrubute tech and corruption is extremely rare in Australia but you can be sure at the least literally a nut and bolt(which could provide information on stealth paint makeup or the composites of the metal used in the plane) is sure to go missing whether by Chinese spies paying grandly for it or a airforce tech see dollar signs.
I guess what I am trying to say is that export invariably means that tech will be stolen.
IMO give us water based NLOS-LS systems with unmaned sensors to control our vast sea borders and as a means to extend our strategic capability (to be able to blockade waterways with the systems therefore having a strategic deterant like the USA’s aircraft carriers) and alot of Patriot missile batteries and we have what we really need. Australia cant afford the F22.
“errr…they made ALL 186 Raptors already?“
Well at very least they’ve ordered all the components. I don’t know if the last airframe has been started.
I’m in manufacturing and when you order the last batch of components/raw materials– well, you better have another program in the planning stage or layoffs will be a coming.
lolin at the idiots in this thread comparing Australia to Iran/Mujahideen.
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