“No more amphib excuses” reads the headline of a recent editorial in Navy Times newspaper. The editorial went on to enumerate some of the problems being encountered by the Navy’s new amphibious ships of the San Antonio (LPD 17) class.
After a construction period that lasted twice as long as planned, and cost twice as much as originally budgeted, the San Antonio was belatedly placed in commission on 14 January 2006.
But the ship was not ready for service and, after two and a half years of being “fixed,” the San Antonio was to deploy with an amphibious group. But on the eve of her August sailing it was discovered that there were problems with the stern gate to her docking well, where LCU landing craft and AAV amphibian assault vehicles are carried and discharged.
After additional work was performed the ship was able to deploy two days later.
Still, the San Antonio probably goes down in Navy history as having taken the longest time on record from being placed in commission to first deployment. This is amazing when one considers that the LPDs are basically “transport ships” with docking wells and helicopter decks. The Navy has been building docking well ships since the early 1940s, with the first, the USS Ashland (LSD 1), completed in 1943.
The new LPDs have relatively simple and basic systems — no high-tech radars, no sonar, no advanced missiles, no nuclear propulsion, no advanced electronic warfare systems. Okay. As the Navy Times editorial of 8 September pointed out, the Navy and industry spokesmen “repeatedly have given the same excuse: You will always have issues with the first ship of a class.”
That is not a true statement — look at the intervals between being placed in commission and the first deployment of the first U.S. nuclear-propelled submarine, the Nautilus (SSN 571); the first Polaris submarine, the George Washington (SSBN 598); the first nuclear surface warship, the Long Beach (CGN 9); the first Aegis warship, the Ticonderoga (CG 47); and many other high-tech lead ships.
Now the second ship of the San Antonio class, the USS New Orleans (LPD 18), has been found to suffer from a long list of problems. That ship, also behind schedule and far over cost, was commissioned on 5 March 2007 — a year and a half ago. The recent report of a Navy inspection team concludes that the ship “cannot support embarked troops, cargo or landing craft,” and was deemed “degraded in her ability to conduct sustained combat operations.”
These ships were built by Northrop Grumman Ship Systems at Avondale, Louisiana. An additional ship, the Mesa Verde (LPD 19), was commissioned on 15 December 2007, and several more are under construction at the yard.
By accepting these ships the Navy has taken responsibility away from the shipbuilder to pay for fixing these massive problems. Beyond these issues, the basic design of the LPD 17 must also be questioned. Compared to the Navy’s previous LPD class of 12 ships completed from 1965 to 1971, the San Antonio class is one-third larger (24,900 tons compared to 16,585 tons), but has minimal improvements in troop, vehicle, and landing craft capacities, with a slight increase in speed.
Coupled with the delays and major cost increases in the Navy’s littoral combat ship (LCS) program, and the Navy’s continued confusion and changes in the DDG 1000 advanced destroyer program, the credibility of the Navy’s shipbuilding efforts must be questioned. When addressed in the broad context of the shrinking size of the fleet and the expected reductions in shipbuilding budgets, the situation should be considered critical
{ 46 comments… read them below or add one }
Ok what the heak is going on over at Fleet HQ.
fist theres billion dollar “destroyers” that are 700ft long and cant take a hit but are supposed to support amphib. landings.
Then like you said theres the LCS program which sounds good (id go with the trimaridian hulled version btw just my .02)but is way over budget.
and now this a simple ship that aparently from inception…sucks and anyone find it interesting those retards decided the ship the metal from the twin towers would be in a troop transport…that cant transport troops.
God help us someone go kick the entire pentegon in the nuts…
“Future Weapons: USS San Antonio (LPD-17)”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wTm6ilVLok
Over regulation and government intrusion has strangled, handicapped, and finally crippled the US industrial base.
These woes in basic workmanship are just the symptoms of a much larger and deeper industrial rot. A nation that cannot compete in civilian shipbuilding, is going to have a hard time building a Warship at reasonable cost (lack of infrastructure) or quality (lack of experience/skilled labor).
No amount of HQ tweaking or over site will fix that. The best the HQ can do is cut cost in the design phase (pick one and stick, redesign midstream is brutal to cost), and work on getting more numbers (R&D is a single cost that is insane when added to a small lot but if produced in number R&D can be minor).
C-Low, what are you talking about? Over regulation and government intrusion? Yeah, and that is why we are in the economic mess we are in too. Oh, my bad, it is the opposite. And that is what is happening here with our lack of government regulation and oversight. Regulation and oversight works very well for other countries in Europe that make very well engineered equipment.
How about the lack of regulation allowing contractors to cut corners to make money at the expense of the system actually working due to a lack of oversight. Our government systems are so overstretched that they are not doing what they are supposed to do. That is our problem.
DC2
Surly these constant bunglings in the US military procurment system cannot all be by mistake, i imagine there must be alot of crooked and dodgy dealings going on. If you yanks carry on this way in fifty years time you’ll be buggered.
Union workmanship at it’s finest……..
I tryed to get on at the avondale but was told there was no work while I watched almost every non english speaking hispanic man and women b hired.I doubt they where legal r have experience at building warships.Could cheap,unorganized,and unexperienced laborers b the problem?I say unorganized becuase of communication issues.
Of course the Navy has to accept inferior ships. If it didn’t, then how would high-ranking officers ever expect to get cushy jobs with military contractors after they leave the service?
“My parents are with AIG.” “Your parents rock.”
With much thanks to Lehman Brothers,Merrill Lynch,& AIG,our nation is so close to bankruptcy,that we are close to not even being able to build a row boat for the Navy.
The one thing about the San Antonio Class LPD that nobody seems to mention is that it was built with the co-ed navy in mind.It has working washing machines,it has expanded living space to allow the female sailors to feel comfortable. It was built to meet “political correctness” & so what if they sacrificed “mission” & war time ability to make it nothing more than a cruise ship to make the feminists happy. I bet the washing machines work just fine without ANY problems on the San Antonio.
Political Correctness & “Tailhook” made this ship non-deployable. The ONLY emphasis,the only thing demanded with this ship was that it be made cushy & comfortable for female sailors,& they ignored every other thing or mission this ship was supposed to do to meet THAT prime directive.
The reduction in shipyards and expertise is now becoming apparent. The DOD wanted far fewer suppliers to deal with under then Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney, now they have what they wished for! The lack of oversight by the US Navy during the design and construction is a secondary issue. The US will not be able to maintain a 313 ship Navy at the current pace of commissioning. It may be time to have a top down review of the entire industrial base for ship building and weed out the bad actors.
The United States has a long and proud history in shipuilding and until recently, I had never heard of a major ship program that has gone so badly awry. The littoral class ships are in the same boat.
Ever since the major shipyards were bought out by the conglomerates, these programs have suffered. I am going to guess that there were plenty of layoffs and cost cutting measures and that they may have let key engineers go. This is an absolute disgrace.And no one is seemingly held accountable. The Pentagon Protective Service at work.
“yes because china russia india would never then try to fill our shoes…..”
Yeah, so?
Tell you what — the day the combined Sino-Slavo-Indian armada appears off the coast of Delaware, I’ll give you a five spot and call you Sun Tzu.
Oh, and it’s especially hilarious when armchair imperialists yammer on about how their critics want to “IGNORE THE WORLD”. I don’t know how many ALLIED governments have expressed serious reservations about significant aspects of our foreign policy (e.g., our glorious adventure in Iraq) — and our La-Z-Boy Caesars not only disregard their concerns, but actively ridicule them. Right now our rather fragile (and enigmatic) Pakistani “ally” (or client, or whatever) is telling us that maybe it’s not such a good idea to lob missiles and SEAL’s into their land, and violate their sovreignty.
In the meantime, it ought to be pretty obvious by now that we can’t even “fill our own shoes” with any competence. Our attempts to “manage” the world have reached the point of seriously diminishing returns AT BEST. More and more, they are harming us more than our “enemies”.
Forget all this crap about Pentagon wondertoys. For about 20 years now, they haven’t made ONE American more “secure”. The ONLY Americans served by the Pentagon serves, now, are the 1%-2% at the top of the pyramid. Read Andrew Bacevich.
Has this “Roy Smith” fellow finished high school yet?
C-Low is correct. The problem with the LPD-17, the LCS & the DDG-1000 (& a WHOLE LOT MORE) is TOO much government involvement. People who don’t know jack telling people who do what to do & ow to do it.
from Wikipedia
“San Antonio is the first U.S. Navy vessel to incorporate new crew comfort features, including bunks with increased headroom, in-rack fans, and pull-out laptop computer shelves.”
I stupidly threw away the book that talked about how the San Antonio was built PRIMARILY with the Co-ed navy & putting females on “traditionally” all male ships in mind. It was supposed to be an improvement over the other ships still in the Navy fleet,& it was supposed to be a leap forward in “creature comforts” & in the feminization of the Armed Forces.
Whatever the mission,as planned by Bush,Sr.,Clinton,& Bush,Jr.,was for this ship,it sure wasn’t for combat.
You know,I wonder if this is why the “experts” are pooh poohing the threats from Russia,China,now Pakistan(thank you very much George W. Bush),etc. & screaming to the top of their lungs about “imaginary” [terrorist] threats? They know that they completely FUBAR’d our military & they are trying to keep our minds occupied with [imaginary] terrorist threats(including “liquid” bombs,who takes THAT SHIT seriously?),economic crisis’,& “killer weather.” I left out the major joke called the “National Election.”
Truthfully,there are many reasons why there are so many problems with the San Antonio. I mentioned one(feminism),but everybody else also have valid points to include shutting down so many shipyards,hiring of illegal aliens(& union busting),& just the widespread waste & fraud going on. It’s not just Navy ships,it’s also the Air Force spending money on stupid shit like new dress uniforms instead of a much needed aerial tanker. The Army lost their minds over a decade ago when they thought the answer to helped strapped soldiers was to give them a black beret to wear,woo hoo. Meanwhile,they’re teasing our pricks with the “Future Combat System,” but nothing legitimate(or useful) has gone into mass production to help our troops……TODAY.
I can hardly see anything with satisfaction that helps our armed forces today.
We need our F-22 Raptors in Afghanistan TODAY to protect our forces from the very F-16s that we sold to Pakistan(Again,thank you George W. Bush for pissing off the Pakis & turning them against us). We need American ARMOR & more anti-tank missiles to counter if Pakistan decides to send their armor into Afghanistan to aid the Taliban.
The navy is retiring the Tarawa class amphibious ships(& sinking them to the bottom of the ocean as fast as possible) before their replacements have been built.Judging by the LCS & the San Antonio,we may never see them built. I wonder how the George HW Bush aircraft carrier is coming along,have we f**ked that up too?
To anybody who says that we could defeat the Pakis any day of the week,…..NOT IF WE DON’T HAVE THE NEEDED WEAPONS IN AFGHANISTAN(instead of sitting idle in Europe,Iraq,& South Korea) TO DO IT!!!!!!!
Forget all this crap about Pentagon wondertoys. For about 20 years now, they haven’t made ONE American more “secure”. The ONLY Americans served by the Pentagon serves, now, are the 1%-2% at the top of the pyramid. Read Andrew Bacevich.
Posted by: sglover at September 19, 2008 02:34 PM
AH ok now we get down to what you realy are justanother socalist..my bad “progressive” your spoutin the same old bs again
i dont blame a man for doin good in life and i wont demand half his money hell and i am in the poor bracket he..ever noticed this evil capitalist government has brought more ppl out of poverty than any other are all americans living like kings?..no but we have the chance too?..is it fair..no
but id rather stick with a gov thats keept us free for over 200yrs than the soft slavery your type yourn for
———
Tell you what — the day the combined Sino-Slavo-Indian armada appears off the coast of Delaware, I’ll give you a five spot and call you Sun Tzu
china is currently gaining more and more power in africa and all over the world and everywhere they go they bring slavery and misery with them darfur? anyone zimbobwa?
as for arm chair ceasar no…i just didnt buy into all the crap of my country or ppl being evil
Strategypage.com has a very interesting story about the USS San Francisco submarine disaster. Apparently,whoever prints the maps showing geographical points like the underwater mount that the San Francisco didn’t have the money to print new up to date maps so the submarine would know that that obstacle was there. The San Francisco was sailing with outdated maps. Over 90% of the crew on the San Francisco were injured,but the two corpsmen on board weren’t. So people on the submarine were punished,but the map makers,& the higher ups who knew that this problem existed,got off scot free. This disaster,along with the San Antonio,LCS,& Zumwalt Destroyer disasters,can be laid at the feet of the Pentagon & the Office of the Sec.Def.
I like to make love to park benches.
Looks like some “Caravan Rubbish(or what we like to call Trailer Trash/Trailer Park Trash)” is being cute.
Anyway,there has just been a terrorist attack in Islamabad,Pakistan. We are doing our level best to piss off people we should not be pissing off(like the Pakistanis),& at the same time,we are sabotaging our own weapons we need to defend ourselves. we see China & Russia with weapons we know are grossly inferior to our own,& then we let our superior weapons rot & rust in motor pools,ship yards,& air fields. We were supposed to build a simple cruise ship that could be used by cruise lines in peace time for tourists & converted into command ships in war time & that turned into shit. Most people on this blog take the promises of our government as the “inerrant word of God” when it comes to promising 1000s of new F-35s or other weapons.As far as you’re concerned,if the government “promised” it,then it’s coming. I can’t help but shake my head & laugh at such naivety. The reasons why our weapons procurement program is so broken is because of terminal sickness in our leadership. People blame the workers for building shoddy products,but NOBODY has the balls to clean it up. Our soldiers are going to get their butts kicked because our government will not stand up & protect them,& give them the equipment they need(equipment that works). The problem with the San Antonio is part of a terminal sickness with our Pentagon that will NEVER get any better.
I am no friend of Israel & Israel is no friend of mine. As far as Israel is concerned,I am an Amalekite. I am descended from Duke Amalek,King Agag,& Haman the Agagite. I am both an Amalekite & a Gormogon of the Antient Noble Order of the Gormogons.
This is odd, but it looks like the US are not the only ones having difficulties these days with what are really ‘second line’ warships. The Royal Navy’s Albion and Bulwark LPDs had dreadful engineering problems in biuld (and have a deeply flawed design- no organic air! Madness, but no doubt it saved a miniscule proportion of the bloated build cost) and the Bay’s built to a Dutch design, could not be completed by the British lead yard and half of them had to be towed around to the opposite coast for completion. In Australia the completion of a French designed ‘phib bankrupted their main yard.
Building front line warships is no easy task, but my suspicion is that these ‘cheaper’ ships have too many corners cut in the design and build planning stage. Understandable, they’re critical resources and these days naval planners have realised this and used almost any means necessary to get the build approved. Risky though, and navies around the world are paying the price.
I like to make love to car exhausts.
A Shipyard is chosen from among a pool who have bid on it the winner is NOT he who bids lowest but he who builds consistently on time and budget with best quality?
Posted by: Valcan at September 20, 2008 03:43 PM
No more know-how? America has become a land of 100 paper-pushing bureaucrats for every guy who can use a wrench.
Heads up Christian,
It looks like DT may have been descended upon by drive-by trolls and sock puppets.
An aside on the real commentary going on. A lot of the comments seem to be based upon the assumption that because the US has been doing X since way back when, that X should be a no-brainer now. Unfortunately, a lot of the difficulty in doing what has always been done is that the people who did it before are dead or retired. the people they were training to replace them left the industries (through layoff or frustration) in the 90′s when America cashed in its ‘peace dividend’. Couple the break in the knowledge chain with the impact felt on the government side, like getting rid of ‘oversight’ and replacing it with ‘insight’ program offices in the never ending drive to improve the ‘tooth to tail’ ratio. to summarize: The military has a too-miniscule infrastructure left to provide guidance and insight much less oversight. Contracts no longer require or pay for certain management deliverables that are now seen as un-neccessary ‘overhead’. Skilled workers are hitting retirement in a mass exit an there is a trough in the curve between Boomers and Gen Yers where Gen X should be.
Oh yeah…and now we’re fighting a real-time war that’s eating into existing infrastructure and putting pressure on all the other budget pots. It has operators clamoring for more things to meet immediate needs and telling long-range planners to forget about the future because they have problems to deal with NOW.
Now tell me, Does anyone (who is not comatose or lazy) really have a right to be surprised that hard things are getting harder to do? Just askin’!
Oh, and BTW: I understand NG has taken it in the bottom line (and still is presumably) over the San Antonio’s travails.
Mac,
Not to get into a philosophical battle with you on age groups, but the Gen Xers are here and they are leading. They are leading the way and trying to fix the screw ups of the Boomers. Bush and Clinton, yep, Boomers. The leaders of companies that outsource American jobs, Boomers. And who are the leaders in the trenches right now trying to fix those decisions? Gen X.
You are correct, a complete and total lack of oversight is what is causing all of these problems within our procurement system. And it will continue until that is changed.
DC2
I believe some of you should go back and re-read the newspapers form 1994 and after perusing, you could determine where the latest foul-up came from, and the office wasnt oval.
For some of you others look back to the viet times and see how the inspectors have been treated, and you will find the rest of the problem, and we boys of the blue can show you what happens after that.
The new USAF uniform is a good idea. Additionally the total money spent on research and development for it is only fractionally the cost of one aircraft. Rest assured, most airmen will probably like the uniform.
P.J. Busche
SSgt, USMC retired
Semper Fidelis
Roy,you sure are an Amalakite.Big time.Just what America needs >Skinhead by chance,boy? I visit new sites looking for info and I run into ” Amalakites” and professional TROLL hunters.Thought they were gittin rid o skinheads? Give me a break,as they say.What is the matter with America? Too many “AMALAKITES” and Xers.Several of many problems with a professional army–people who can’t do anything else join the army.B.M.
@dc2
i think the curve in question is specific to the manufacturing industry and to a lesser extent the defense industry, neither of which were hiring when gen x-ers were looking for work because of outsourcing and peace-time decline respectively.
I like to make love to teddy bears.
Hey DC2- no battles, just data.
I never said there weren’t Gen Xers, just not enough of them. I have a proprietary slide someplace that shows it plain and clear with a big arrow pointing to the trough asking the rhetorical question “where is Gen X?”, but you can get the same idea from marrying the data in the age percentage distribution slide and the slide showing the total number of aerospace workers declining over the years at: http://www.aia-aerospace.org/stats/charts.cfm.
It’s a weird environment in aerospace now. As a barely-boomer (p***es me off to be lumped in with that group – I think of myself as post-hippie) I’m still barely under the average age of all aerospace workers – in about two years I instantly become the old man. I’m working with a lot of sharp new people we’re bringing in as fast as we can, and all the companies are being as agressive as their cultures will allow in improving ‘knowledge management’ but I predict that a new aerospace culture will have to arise (for better and worse)in the next decade or so and that there will be massive misssteps along the path as old lessons are “rediscovered” the hard way.
MAC,
Leave it to you to come up with some technical gobbly gook that in the end makes sense and allows me to understand what you are saying. Now I do agree with what you and Animal said. I personally think that we could do more will less for so long that the string has finally broke under the tension. That is clearly evident in all of our facets of government today.
Someday we will realize that outsourcing isn’t the correct solution especially when it comes to oversight and regulation by our government. That’s just letting the foxes into the henhouse.
Somewhere we have to find the medium between the $700 hammer that works too well and the $2.99 China gimmick that causes finger cancer and oozes black goo when exposed to temps above 80 degrees. I think we currently find ourselves on the China gimmick side of the pendulum.
DC2
WTF do you guys expect to happen? There’s no penalty for failure in today’s procurement system. What happens to Northrop or General Dynamics if they screw the pooch? Nothing, they just get another contract. I wish I worked in a field where it didn’t matter if anything I did worked or not. Why isn’t this ship back in their shipyard being repaired? If this happened to a new car you bought you would expect to be able to take it back to the dealer. The way things are now it’s like once you leave the dealership, you absolve thecarmanufacturer of any responsibility.
This reminds me of a story..
In Missile Control, we had 17″ LCD monitors that cost $22,000. One day during patrol, I submitted some formal paperwork (through my Chain-of-Command) asking why we had to pay for “COTS” flat-panels that cost so much.
The head of SSP (Strategic Systems Programs) called my Captain to personally complain about me, and voiced his concern about the issue possibly causing harm to the Navy’s relationship with our LCD display contractor, Eaton.
So, I was written-up for NJP, for the next minor “anything” that happened. I fought it, and (thankfully) it was eventually dropped.
Just a small example of the small things that take place, behind-the-scenes, that get in the way of the good that should be happening in our Navy.
MT2
“Words/ Posted by: gsak at September 22, 2008 11:00 AM”
Should have taken it to the press. Terrible story and a prime example of the crooked-ness i was whining about lower down in this mighty thread. That SSP manager guy needs putting down.
Unmannedanimal,
Sorry, but I must disagree with you about this affecting only the defense department, et al. There is a shortage of skilled workers for about any trade you can name.
I also have to disagree about it being just a population problem. These kids were looking for work at the very peak of the downsize and outsource wave. The entry level jobs that would have taught them the skills we are now in such desperate need of are anywhere but in the US.
Basically I think we are reaping what our policy makers have sown, and I don’t see that changing any time soon.
@rick
i think we’re on the same page. i did not intend to say that the defense industry is uniquely lacking in skilled workers. i was trying to put dc2′s assertion that gen-x is here and leading in context with mac’s evidence from aerospace by contrasting management and engineers/machinists/etc.
as i understand it this isn’t a problem with population, such that the solution is greater or lesser numbers of gen-xers. i think this is a problem described within a population e.g. the distribution of knowledge/skills within gen-x is markedly different from that of the boomers and their children, creating knowledge gaps in the american workforce.
why the change in distribution? was gen-x pulling IT and finance jobs out of the air while manufacturing jobs lay idle and unfilled? were they trying to fill a vacuum in the wake of a globalizing industry? i don’t know. at this point i can confidently say that i am out of my depth as well as my age bracket.
Could it be that our highly skilled labor force is drying up and so these delays could, in part, be due to a longer learning curve? Designing and manufacturing cutting edge equipment involves cutting edge expertise. With the average age of our workforce declining (due to large number of retirings), is there a debilitating drain on experience?
That depends partially on what you consider an acceptable Engineering Department; how much of a difference you perceive between a full team of very experienced engineers, and three or four old salty guys leading a bunch of younger guys and girls.
Personally, I think it is technically a drain on experience; although, I must say that I’ve known the engineering staff at Gunderson and they’re a sharp group. And they have a decent percentage of younger people on their team.
With solid Team Leads, a younger workforce is pretty competent. Maybe it’s just that only the older guys are worrying?
I don’t know much about shipbuilding, so I don’t really know what to contribute here, except that Mac, Byron, Mark1 and gsak seem to hit the nail on the head.
Apart from that, it seems that a catastropic breakdown in ship contracting can’t be traced to a single point failure, like unions or government regulation. There’s too many moving parts in this kind of fandango for a single cause.
That being said, our “lead systems integrators” don’t seem to be integrating too well. LockMart and NG bought into the shipyards because they thought they could make money at it. Looks like they were right.
Call them scapegoats, or fatted calves. Any way you slice it, it’s well past time we trimmed some fat.
As a former employee of a leading machine tool manufacturer I have seen several of these problems up close and personal.
The biggest problem is that the US is sending most of it’s manufacturing overseas to China. When the sub-assemblies arrive from China, they are tested and programmed or modified. The failure rate from equipment coming from China was very high. But, supposedly it led to more profit(for the executives), but at what cost?
The second problem, especially where I worked was that they had a very hard time recruiting and retaining young workers. Let’s face it, the majority of young workers don’t want to turn a wrench. So what you ended up with was a skilled work force that will be retiring very soon, and a bunch of young people biding time until something better comes along. Their really was no middle workers to take over for the retiring workforce. We will soon loose a lot of experience and talent that will not be replaced.
We need to rebuild American manufacturing and not build China by sending our hi-tech manufacturing there. American manufacturers are selling their souls to China in the name of greed. If this does not stop soon, it will cost us all dearly.
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