If Lt. Gen. Donald Wurster, commander of Air Force Special Operations Command, could put his hands on one more dollar to spend he would buy a heavily armed version of the new Joint Cargo Aircraft. In fact, he wants them so badly that after spending that dollar, hed go down the table, stab the others in the back and take their dollars for the program. Or at least thats what he said during a roundtable of four-star generals at the annual Air Force Association conference.
The command, based at Hurlburt Field, Fla., needs a successor to the aging AC-130 gunship, and so its asking to redirect about $32 million from its current fiscal year budget to buy a prototype from JCA maker Alenia Aeronautica and its U.S. partner, L3 Communications.
The command hasnt settled on what size cannon to go in the plane, but it wants something that can take out a truck or tank probably something between a 25mm and 40 mm weapon, said Jason Decker, a spokesman for L3.
The AFSOC version would be called the AC-27J Stinger II, Decker said this week at the Air Force Associations annual conference in Washington, D.C., where he stood before an oversized illustration of the proposed plane. Though its being called a gunship gunship lite, in some quarters Decker said that reference tends to draw the ire of Lockheed Martin, maker of the AC-130 family of gunships since the 1960s and the –130A and H model Spectre and the AC-130U Spooky.
But the AC-130s are showing their age and need replacing, AFSOC officials have said. Wurster, commander of AFSOC, said during a presentation at the conference that he wants 16 combat JCAs ready by 2015.
In March, in an interview with CBS Evening News, AC-130 pilot Lt. Col. Mark Clawson said the planes are seeing so much action in Iraq and Afghanistan that its hard to keep them flying.
Another pilot noted that for every hour of flying,the gunship requires 14 hours of maintenance. And cracks in the wings are prompting their replacement five years ahead of schedule, Capt. James May said, according to a transcript of the interview.
The original version of the Stinger was a C-119 manufactured by Fairchild and initially were deployed to Vietnam in 1969 and used by the 18th Special Operations Squadron, 14th Special Operations Group, at Phan Rang Air Base, but also were operated by detachments out of air bases at Da Nang and Phu Cat, according to the National Museum of the Air Force.
When it says “every hour of flying,the gunship requires 14 hours of maintenance,” does that mean 14 man hours of maintenance or 14 hours in the hangar with multiple people working on it?
Is there a reason that they can’t buy more AC-130(X)s? Is there an urgent need for a different aircraft or are they doing both?
The Air Force couldn’t stand the C-27 when they had it in Panama in the 90’s. They got rid of it and now they want it back. whatever
Most likely that’s 14 hangar queen hours, Knapp.
If it were my call, it’s 30mm or nothing for Stinger II. Great ballistics, plenty of penetratin power, and with all the other 30mm platforms out there (Apache, EFV, A-10, etc) it keeps the supply chain happy.
I would suggest a 25mm GAU-12 for area saturation and a 57mm MK3 Bofors, now that the US Navy has chosen this caliber for the LCS. Interesting effects and fuses.
The C27J has a payload of 11 tons.
300 57mm MK3 rds = 1950Kg
The cannon should weigh some 6000kg
Total system weight= 8 tons
GAU 12 125kg
Cartridge weigh (heaviest) 0.5kg
2000 rds = 1Ton
Total System weight= 1,3Ton (round number)
Total armament weight = 9,3 tons
Sensors, ECMs and system operator weight “margin”: 1.7 Tons. I don
Here’s a thought. Could a C-17 be turned into a gunship? Or is it too large/fast/expensive for the mission? Just a check to see what some of you tactical folks would think.
I do wonder why SOC would want a smaller bird for the mission. Is the 105mm in the Spectre too big for the job or do they want a smaller aircraft for a different mission set?
im not a plane but but i would say no/yes/good go yes
dont c-17s cost 1bil a piece
30mm is bare minimum for the altitudes they want to use. Currently 25mm is almost never used. Also a plan to ‘upgrade’ the 25mm and 40mm to common 30mm was scrapped; apparently the 30 was found lacking. Based on that I’d suspect they’d be opening with the Bushmaster 35/50mm as the smallest calibre accetible. 57mm seems like a good candidate if the recoil and weight could be accomodated. Not sure that the 105mm would be compatible, or if it were, if it could carry sufficient ammunition.
I suspect C-27 is a more cost effective platform for this role that C-130 but that’s just a guess.
I wonder if the urgency about the AC-130 replacement reflects a strategy of trying to argue that the AC-130 replacement covers the low end of the A-10’s duties, while the F-35A covers the high end of the A-10’s duties, so the A-10 shouldn’t be replaced after the current round of upgrade packages wear out.
I read about this on another site too. I think this idea for a ‘lite’ gunship won’t replace the AC-130, but will add to the current gunship force.
I’m just an interested civilian, but as I understand it nearly every level of the military is really happy with the effective role of gunships in the current battlefield, but that we don’t have enough 130’s, that the 130’s we have are getting old an worn out.
Josh, I believe that you are right on the altitude issue. Probably your idea of a Bushmaster 35/50 makes more sense. The thing is that — as far as I am aware — there are no 50mm Supershot ammo. But even so I wonder what a couple of 35x228 KCA (faster firing), shooting readily available ammunition wouldnt do.
About the 57 Bofors: 1035ms; 2,4Kg shell packing almost half a kilo of explosive (almost 4x that of a 40mm). I believe this is an interesting weapon with plenty of aplications.
BTW, anyone knows anything new about the 120mm breechloading mortar that was to replace the 105 on the AC-130?
Alot of articles about the AC-27J seem to be inferring that the AC-27 would replace the AC-130 outright. I don’t recall anyone in AFSOC saying that. It was my understanding that the AC-27 would complement the AC-130, and AFSOC also wants to convert some C-130J’s into gunships. If anyone has a link to an article that has an official source saying that the AC-27 would replace the AC-130 outright, please post it.
I think one reason they want the Spartan, over another Hercules, is availability…
The Spartan, being smaller, can use a shorter runway to take off from, which would allow you to fly them from more places (correct?).
I don’t think, given how crazy Congress is about buying more C-130s, that they would be asking for the C-27, if it didn’t offer some benefit!
I like the idea of the 57mm, but I think the recoil might be a bit rough for such a small plane.
How about a 40mm “Case Telescoped” weapon?
The c
C130 productopn stopped several years ago and the machining for it converted to other products. It would cost to much to re-tool the production back up. Remember that the C130 was first produced in the 50’s
The C130 production stopped several years ago and the machining for it converted to other products. It would cost to much to re-tool the production back up. Remember that the C130 was first produced in the 50’s
I like gunships. How about some more gunships, regardless of size?
As much as I think bigger is usually better when it comes to firepower, 57mm might be a little much for a little bird like the C-27 to handle. I mean, it would be one thing if the recoil impulse was directed down the longitudinal axis of the fusalage, but isn’t that a lot of lateral stress on the airframe?
Something like that 35mm Bushmaster might be the hot ticket, though. Or better yet, some kind of a low velocity, large caliber round. Think a scaled up 40mm grenade or an old-timey 75mm pack howitzer round. Given the state of modern targeting, it should be relatively simple to compensate for the low velocity. Granted, we don’t have to reinvent the wheel here, but there should be a round already in production that would work.
Then again, I’m just an ex-0311 with two drinks in me.
Semper Fi
Good Evening Folks,
As one who has been on the ground when one of these gun ships did it thing, “Puff” C-47 w/2 20mm Valcans, it is an impressive show. My only problems with them is that they don’t more firpower and that they are not under operational control of the ground commanders.
The Air Force just don’t get, the pilots are to timid, for the grunt is up close and personal and that 1000 meter safety zone is way to big, make these part of the Army and the Marines so there is some a** to chew when they didn’t make their pass low enough or close enough.
When “Puff” was done doing his thing the bad guys were either very dead or had long since de-a**ed the area. There was nothing but body parts and chewed up bunkers and equipment.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Didn’t they just update one of the models?
I seem to recall that they just put Bushmaster auto cannons and a 120mm cannon and some other stuff on them.
Does anyone know anything about this?
AFSOC wants a new toy eh? Well there’s plusses and minuses to the C-27 as a platform. Hope the general lets the adults crunch the numbers first but lordy, he sounds like a drama queen. Wonder if he gets that from standing too close to the Army all the time (LOL).…Whuut?.…. I thought baseless snide remarks about the sister services were he norm on this thread?
PS: Like your ‘craziness’ Camp. Cool photos I hadn’t seen before
Factoids:
The C-130J is in production now and could be used for a new gunship. It had a heck of a birthing process with the new engines/props and avionics among other things. Everyone and their brother whined about it as being a waste in the early phases, now guess what’s THE in-demand intra-theater airlifter doing the yeoman’s job now?
The only metric that the DoD uses that involves ratio of flying time to anything else that I’m aware of is MMH/FH or maintenance man-hours per flying hour. the 14/1 ratio has to be MMH/FH and that could be 1 guy for 14 hrs or 140 guys for a tenth of an hour (smallest fraction of time tracked throughout the system) or any combination thereof for every hour flown…and that only catches most (almost all– there are exceptions to the accounting process) of the hours of maintenance at the operational unit.
The C-17’s advertised cost was about $200M in 1998. If you wanted to buy more, it depends on how many you buy over how long a time.
It doesn’t matter what the gunship is or the guns it carries… The gunships need to be in the hands of those who have the stones to use them. The AF either doesn’t ever want to use them or are scared to use them.
It usually took 72 hours to get an Air Tasking Order request granted in Anbar when we needed them. Hell, by that time the enemy is gone and the AF can continue playin’ Xbox.
And AF Special Operation–that itself is a bit of a misnomer.
Just load me up and get me on the ground–we’ll take care of the rest. Go boack to playin’ Xbox.
The arrival of the first JCA C-27J, has arrived in Georgia. Over the next 5–7 years, selected states of the Army National Guard will put these workhorses through the paces over the next 40 years. It’s a small start to revitalize and reshape, the U.S. Army Aviation community. There is more to the Army than helicopters, tanks, trucks, artillery, etc. Hindsight is 20/20, most people have forgotten there was an Army Air Corp (AAC) until 1947. To the present: thank you, U.S. Army General Cody (retired) for his vision of the JCA program which made this possible. Of course, to the blue-suiters who have tried to sabotage the program or sidetrack it by making it all A.F. Time will uncover your sins and root you out. HOOAH!
Another consideration of changing to a different air platform than currently seen in the skies is a serious OPSEC issue. Everytime an unfriendly spotter would see one of the new planes take off instead of the workhorse C-130 in whatever configuration, the word can be spread quick, fast and in a hurry. The word on the street is that the IRAQNA telephone system is one of the best gifts given to insurgents in Iraq as they simply hand one over to a ‘kid’ hanging around an airbase with instructions to call when a plane takes off and the direction.
The use of a different airframe that is easily discernible from the C-130 just makes the spotter’s job that much easier. Whatever platform is used, it needs to at least look like the others in the inventory from a distance.
This issue doesn’t even take into consideration how and why we segregate our ‘special’ birds from the true cargo work birds. Everytime one of the ‘special’ birds moves out from the secured area, up goes the flag and spotters are making the phones buzz with numbers and direction.
Gary,
Understood re: OPSEC issue, and it’s a valid point. However, if the Army and AF are flying the C-27 in a transport capacity anyways, wouldn’t it be a moot point?
Granted, if the only –27’s in theater are AC-27’s, we’re back to where we started.
Anyone here anything about the Corps buying some C-27’s? I haven’t heard squat, and I would think the flexibility of a smaller airlifter would have a certain appeal. Maybe not a bunch, but certainly enough to keep 2 squadrons busy.
SMSgt Mac — the frame of the J model and the type of props it has doesnt make it possible to be a gunship. Everything showed that the structual integrety would not hold up to the force of the guns.
Just a a newbie here,
I would say the military could use more close air support. They could use the 130’s for “hard” targets(buildings, trucks, armor fortifications) and use the 27’s for softer targets(personell). Use it in the gunship “lite” role to compliment the heavy gunships. Like they did back in Vietnam with the seperate ac-119’s. One was anit-personnel, one was antitrucks.
Just a thought.
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