[EDITOR: Updated Nov. 7, 2008 — After some correspondence with the author I have decided to redact his real name, though it had been revealed by another forum quite a while ago. Fury made a compelling case that he was worried about putting his family’s live in danger, and as someone with a young daughter of my own, compassion outweighed journalistic ethics. I am sincerely sorry for any problems this may have caused and I wish Fury the best of luck in his endeavors…Please read the upcoming review of “Kill bin Laden” on Military.com.]
So, after I posted the last thread, I went over to a forum that’s populated with no-joke special operations forces troops and looked at the discussion on the KBL/ Dalton Fury imbroglio. Man is it hot in there.
Apparently, Dalton Fury’s real name is [DELETED BY EDITOR]. I was wrong in thinking he was Pete Blaber, though it does turn out from the discussion that Blaber has a book of his own coming out called “The Mission, The Men, and Me: Lessons from a Former Delta Force Commander” that’s supposed to be available in December.
These operators at the forum are none too kind to a guy who’s attempting to “profit” from revealing covert operations covered under top secret non disclosure agreements. They skewer him and smoke his body over a pit of coals. But none of them disputes who he is, what he’s done or how the mission went down. There’s little comment about the actual 60 Minutes broadcast, though it would have been helpful if the reporters had mentioned the controversy Fury has caused and held fast on calling him by his real name [DELETED BY EDITOR]. Once it’s out in the open, it looks a little ridiculous for a reputable news organization to stick to a pseudonym.
As a reporter who’s covered the military for a decade, I get a little annoyed at the knuckle-dragger attitude that someone who says anything about their covert activity should be banished. Give me a break. That attitude perpetuates an elitist, Samurai mentality that says “you don’t need to know. Just trust us, we know what we’re doing…”
Sorry, but I — and millions of other Americans — pay your salary and we damned right want to know what you’re doing. You work for us. So I’m glad, as long as it doesn’t deliberately put lives in danger of death (like the politically-motivated CIA tell-alls did back in the ‘70s), that these stories come out. There’s been seven years between then and now, surely Delta and CIA have new ways of doing things that aren’t compromised by this book.
I will say that I think Eric Haney’s book went over the line — in terms of TTPs and training. Ouch…And the guys over at the operator board skewered him for that as well. But that’s a case where the quilty pleasure of the inside gouge outweighed my scruples a bit…Inside Delta Force was SUCH a good read.
– Christian
Christian..
Cold ? Hey, I wear a Dry Suit, hopefully you do also. You come across as very inmature as well as a self righteous sort of guy. You remind me of that arrogant reporter who was in that famous movie with John Wayne, the “Green Berets”. All full of himself and demanding to know everything yet couldn’t handle the truth when complete strangers told him otherwise. Fortunately, later in the movie, he saw the light. Perhaps you need some of the same.
Personally, I would like to know who your employer is so he / she can get an earful. Your reporting is very toxic and you need to be held accountable as a result to your readers Mr. Christian.
Perhaps your in the wrong line of work Mr. Christian. Considering that the country is in its seventh year of war against a determined enemy, maybe you can enlist into either the US Army or the Marine Corps and experience the fight with a weapon instead of a legal pad and a pencil. Then you can learn all about OPSEC and what it means when your life is on the line.
“Hello? Editor? I disagree with one of your reporters and I demand you fire him, Yes, I know I’m free to choose not to read any more of his writings. But, I think it would be best if you fired him so noone ever gets offended again.”
Nice try “Steve”. But this is the real world. You can say what you want then you need to held accountable.
Oh, I must have misread the Constitution, you know the whole part about freedom of expression. If you had him on a factual error or deliberate misreporting, you would have some point. However, since he merely stated his opinion, which would be under the purvue of editorials, you don’t. Of course, I could be mistaken in my opinion that the owner of a website has the right to say pretty much fool thing he likes on it. He even gives you the oppurtunity to disagree with him in real time. Why so mad?
Besides, do you have any idea what a flame fest like this does to his hits count? If I was his editor at another venue, I’d tell you to go piss up a rope just so you come to my website to post how much I suck.
Steve.…
Its your general attitude and lack of knowledge that is considered toxic regarding my reply as well as those others previous to mine. Just like my reply to Mr. Christian. You can say whatever you want to support some twisted belief but then you need to be held accountable for your actions by others that are interpreted as garbage.
We all know that blatant stupidity mixed with arrogance isn’t an acceptable standard in society when you are demanding to know stuff that you are not entitled to. If Mr. Christian worked for me and knowing what I understand about his character now, I would kick him to the curb. Thats why Mr. Christian isn’t like other respected reporters in the field like COL. Ollie North. He has no credibility. You can loose your credibility in a heart beat and he did with many of us veterans here.
Well, I respect your opinion, even though I disagree with it. You were free to express it here, because you held him accountable for his opinions and directly called him on it. It’s a great system. What makes you think his employers if any should have to share your opinion and follow your wishes? Are we going to go the Politically Correct route and have a check list of what he can or can’t have for an opinion and have him fired for not complying?
afaik christian IS the editor of defense tech.
Welcome to the world of blogging, thanks for playing.
Steve…
When pigs roll in the mud, they are surely going to get others muddy as well. Mr. Christians employer undoubtedly wants to remain clean of any mud themselves and won’t tolerate having their professional image tainted by an individual who comes across as arrogant and demeaning to our people in uniform and the important missions they must perform in war time.
As for Political Correctness, that has no place in the Armed Forces and has destroyed society in large part today over the course of the last 15 years. But on the other hand, when you embarass yourself and your employer and try to bring discredit to others when its not warranted, you will pay a hefty price that will follow you. Thats reality no matter where you go today. You practice that mindset in the work place, you won’t be able to get a job tossing packages at UPS.
Hey Christian,
Those are some pretty big words coming from individual such as you. Someone told me that if you had to list your most dangerous exploits that list would include talking back to your preschool teacher and ripping the tags off your mattresses.
Tell me little man what do you know about the warrior code or ethos? And what don
BTW, speaking as currently a blue collar kind of guy. Jobsites and workplaces are usually nothing but strongly voiced uninformed opinions. He’d probably have a ball at UPS ;p
Fine, go find some of the people he writes for and give them hell. But, I’m pretty sure they already have read this. Most employers already know how to “get on the Google”.
Team Sergeant,
I thought we were buds too…?
Anyway, read the post more carefully and you’ll see I didn’t rip anyone off. And earlier in the commenting I said why I didn’t mention the board you and I both know about.
Also, I’ll tell you and “kayaker” — The Green Berets is more apt than you each could know. Reminds me of the time I had to hand a box of 5.56 to the SAW gunner on the roof of our COP during a night attack.
That was WAY harder than talking back to my preschool teacher and almost as risky as ripping the tags off my mattress…
i dont understand why he’s not wanted by the f.b.i for 9/11 hes wanted for other things but no 9/11
i dont understand why he’s not wanted by the f.b.i for 9/11 hes wanted for other things but no 9/11
Team Sgt.…
Wait.…I’m a retired 11Bravo and former 11 Mike. I served over 22 years in boots. Whats that comment about me not understanding the US Army Green Berets? I have close friends who are SF and retired as well. I have older friends that I knew as a young kid who served in Special Forces in Vietnam as well. Trust me, I know more about SF than you give me credit for.
Semper Fi
Christian.…
Oh sorry…I got Team Sgt. confused with Mr. Christian. Face it man…your just a wannabe. If your half the man you think you are, you would go enlist and stop with your arrogance and inmaturity here trying to pass yourself off as some worthy “new man”. I got a job for ya picking up trash on a beach. Snap to it man. You can then demand to know all you want about why your picking up trash and I can say…OPSEC my good man.…OPSEC.
Kayaker,
Christian is a fine American, doing his job.
Ollie North is a traitor. Simple fact, he should have been hung for his crimes against this nation or spending the rest of his life in Levenworth at the very least.
If North is YOUR idea of a great American, then your service has taught you NOTHING.
Please remember the Oath both you and Mr. North took.
Reading this commentary has done wonders for my respect for military personnel.
Knowing that most military personnel think that I am a “whining civvie”, a “nauseating effete intellectual”, and a traitor to my country really retards my respect for military personnel.
Insulting someone has never been a way to gain their respect or trust.
JHFC — Bottomline: DF gave away no operational secrets. So, the bosses don’t like the heat? Lay off him; nice to see someone telling the truth. Personally, I bet it was Rummy who did them in.
Dear Anonymous…
We don’t ask for your “Respect”. Respect is earned and not given. If you have never served in the trenches, then leave your personal feelings at the door.
Life is hard when you have to live and walk around real men especially veterans. If you can’t stand the heat, go back to Mama.
Kayaker,
I remind you AGAIN, you took an OATH to the Constitution of the United States, as did Mr. North. Mr. North VIOLATED that oath in addition to giving aid and comfort to our enemies. TREASON as defined by that same Constitution. And you defend and admire that traitor.
He should have gone to jail or the gallows.
I’d like to close-out my own comments in this sandbox with memories of all the Kayakers I knew…
Kayaker,
You’re the guy that I lock eyes with, point two fingers at my eyes, and then point one in the direction you’re supposed to be looking.
Quote…
I’d like to close-out my own comments in this sandbox with memories of all the Kayakers I knew…
Kayaker,
You’re the guy that I lock eyes with, point two fingers at my eyes, and then point one in the direction you’re supposed to be looking.
~S~
No need amigo. But I do have Thermal optics and my “Field Of View” is quite wide. Matter of fact, look to your left. See Mr. Cool Aide !?
: )
Hums.…“pick up your tracks and follow me…we are mechanized Infantry…“
: )
On a lighter note…though, “Grandjester” is Mr. Christian in disguise. Nice one…
What a highly charged atmosphere.
Krag,CK_MC, Kayaker — You’re setting American civil-military relations back years with your rants concerning “whining” and your “us vs. them” mentality. We’re an all-volunteer, professional force which is subservient to civilian gov’t control. Hence, less than 1% of Americans will ever serve in the military. That’s life. Get over it. Civilians are free not to serve if they choose not to. You’re all squandering an opportunity to sell our collective story to the American people and get them to buy into what we’re trying to accomplish in the GWOT. You should be glad that civilians look at this blog and post stuff here. Their doing so means that they care about what we’re doing in this war.
Roy Smith — if your serve in the military, your political comments in a military forum such is this are unprofessional and are over the line as established by Article 88, Contempt Toward Officials. Shame on you.
Christian, Brian, SMSgtMac, and Steve — you’re all spot on.
“Krag,CK_MC, Kayaker — You’re setting American civil-military relations back years with your rants concerning “whining” and your “us vs. them” mentality.“
Ask me if I care.…
“You’re all squandering an opportunity to sell our collective story to the American people and get them to buy into what we’re trying to accomplish in the GWOT.“
No, I’m calling the boob that says “I’m a civilian and I pay your salary so tell me whatever I want to know” a boob. Nothing more, nothing less.
As I wrote previously, curiosity does not equal need to know. Apparently a few of these tax-paying (and therefore military-owning-and-commanding) civvies don’t understand that.
Whether you pay taxes or not, doesn’t entitle you to squat. Civilians, by simple fact of being civilians, do not have oversight authority over the military or any other executive branch agency.
Walk into an FBI field office and demand to know everything they are doing and you’ll get about the same answer I responded with here in my first post.
The “I pay your salary so I own you” mentality of Christian’s remarks pushed a button. As he hasn’t retracted nor apologized for it, it appears to be his true attitude. Hence the verbal scorn he’s received from me and other veterans in these posts.
Action » Reaction. Real simple.
Actually, I suppose that should be “typed scorn”, not “verbal scorn”, huh?
Krag
I have just read all the comments posted on this topic and find it amazaing that there is clearly and Us and Them mentality. My observation would be:
As military personnel and professional soliders YOU all elected to serve, you alone made the decision to pull on a uniform and do the job. Thinking that because you made this decision society now owes you something (respect, admiration, glory) is difficult to fathom. You got paid, trained, feed, sheltered and taught a code that few among you will know. But that seems to be not enough. You are all professional soliders and should act like it.
As for the reporters, claiming an entitlement to information that clearly will not affect your daily lives is something that concerns me. Watching from afar and seeing the manner in which the media/reporters/bloggers publish information is also difficult to fathom. Reports claim the first amendment, but don’t understand the responsibility that comes when the average Joe Citizen who could not find Iraq or Afghanistan with a GPS and guide is told what to think 24 hours a day.
There are always two sides to a coin, and the principle that the US seeks to export is the fundemental right to think what I want on any topic that I want. Seeking to silence that right is not different to any other dictatorship… the only difference is that you have cable TV.
The amazaing thing about these posts is that the military personnel posting believe that something is owed to them. You are professional soliders, you and you alone elected to do a job, you were trained, paid, and taught a code that few will know and understand. Believe that society now owes you something because your a vet is something that I struggle with.
As for reporters and the media, with the first amendement comes the responsibility of ensuring your comments are factual, unbiased and accurate.. When the average Joe who could not find Iraq or Afghanistan with a GPS and guide believes that they see on the TV or the Web, that responsibility is even more critical. Personal opinion should be labelled as personal opinion.
You all claim liberty, freedom and justice, but are so quick to claim as unpatriotic, Unamerican or someother slur when the opinions or others are not comparable with your own. That’s not democracy, its dictatorship, the only difference is that you have hollywood to dress the dilema.
RE: “Thinking that because you made this decision society now owes you something (respect, admiration, glory) is difficult to fathom.“
What in the world are you reading?? Where in any of these comments did a military/former military man make any remark that he was owed *anything*??
The only one claiming entitlement to anything is Christian, claiming that because he wants to know something, he should be told it, every other consideration be damned.
So what exactly are you talking about?
Higher HQ turned him down? Yeah, I bet Rumsfeld was the one. He was so incompetent..
I think you might find that British SBS/SAS had Bin laden pretty much cornered at tora bora but were told not to get him by Tony Blair as the big W wanted Delta force to capture him . By the time they arrived he had gone !
ps my theory for peace in iraq and with the afghans , give them jobs on good money, i‘m sure twenty dollars a day is way more than the taliban pay , building infrastructure , far cheaper than keeping planes in the air and dropping jdam bombs and introduce air conditioning on a mass scale with a big kill switch in each local uk/us commanders base ! any trouble no air con ! no job ! if that does not work nuke north western pakistan end of ! the whole problem is that the muslim religious nutters are the equivalent of the torquemada in spain six hundred years ago , and we are living in the 21st century .
Among the many points being missed here is the fact that Greer belonged to a profession.
If a doctor performs a procedure in violation of his profession’s ethics because he thinks it is the ‘right thing to do’ or if a lawyer discloses confidential information against the interests of her client because the public has a ‘right to know’, those individuals are subject to censure, to discipline, and to punishment. (And for those of you who think such violations are no big deal, then you’ll have no problem placing a loved one in the care of the quack in the strip mall down the street.)
The concept of professionalism is alien to today’s journalist. Americans historically have had a tenuous grasp of the practice of military professionalism. We citizens have a desire to know the ‘inside story’ of just about everything. Yet, these facts do not translate into a viable argument that our desires absolve Greer from a code of conduct he agreed to observe. He gave his word, then he broke it, and now would have us believe that he’s done nothing wrong.
Is that the kind of soldier you want protecting you?
“There are MILLIONS of Real Americans that feel the way I do!“
Here’s a hint. That is an argumentum ad majorem fallacy and therefore, would not support your point at all.
“There are MILLIONS of Real Americans that feel the way I do!“
Here’s a hint. That is an argumentum ad majorem fallacy and therefore, would not support your point at all.
American gentleman,
I grew up with fishermen. All the men in my family fished, and taught a couple of us gals about rods, reels, tackle…and bait.
Baiting is an artform.
If I must say it clearly, Christian does NOT speak for the masses in his, “We pay your salary” comment.
Disgusting is too kind a word, IMHO, for the things this reporter has claimed.
But, the folks he is “calling out” can take care of themselves, so I should say no more, as I am just a civilian.
American Gal.
Sigaba: The doctor example is really poor.
A soldier who follows orders at the time, but, blows the whistle a few years down the road is a totally different animal. Spec Ops guys are expected to act with little supervision in politically and personally very volatile situations. They are the most trusted of all our forces. It’s not in their nature to share in what they are doing due to the nature of their work. This guy came forward years after an operation to let people know what seems to be a poor decision by his higher ups. He followed his orders at the time, even though he strongly disagreed. He knows his risks for coming forward, he’s just the kind of guy I want in that slot. You make it sound like you should never come forward or speak up.
I heard about this brouhaha and came over to read the original article and ensuing comments. FWIW, I am not impressed with what I have read here and doubt if I will ever be back as I have no interest in spending time on a web-site edited by the likes of Mr Lowe and his obvious disdain for us “knuckle draggers”…from which, BTW, he makes a living as a reporter and editor of military issues.
A few comments and I am gone:
Reading these commetns is like watching a bunch of hogs staring at a wristwatch–y’all know you’re looking at something but you have no idea what it is or waht it says…but you’re going to offer each other opinions about what you don’t know anyway.
Having read Ernie Pyle’s dispatches from the front and now reading a few of Mr Lowe’s articles, I can say, “Mr Lowe, you are no Ernie Pyle.“
Reading these comments and Mr Lowe’s articles reminds me why our policy on the teams was to always avoid reporters and, if confronted, would tell them to go talk to our commander…who wears two stars and has an office at Fort Bragg, NC. End of conversation.
My opinion of most of what I read here gives me the impression that y’all are like those depicted on the cover of this magazine.
http://forums.techguy.org/random-discussion/528882-internet-tough-guy-magazine.html
Richard
__
BT
Steve,
I appreciate your response and the civility with which you express your disagreement with my comment.
In my view, the fact that the war is still in progress should have served as an additional reason (since living up to his word wasn’t sufficient motivation) for Mr. Greer at least to have waited for the DoD to vet thoroughly his work.
” pay your salary and we damned right want to know what you’re doing. You work for us.“
You and the general public may want to know. Want does not imply a necessity or right to know every detail of operations the government, military or intelligence services engage in. There are oversight committees in place for checks and balances, and they are held to account for disclosure as well.
What the American public know the world knows and that is the compelling reason for security of military operations and the military communities.
Mr. Christian, you state you and millions of Americans should get to know everything you want to know.
“You work for us. So I’m glad, as long as it doesn’t deliberately put lives in danger of death… that these stories come out.“
How the hell do you know what information will put lives at risk, deliberately or unintentionally. What gives you insight as to how past plans or operations might affect future plans or operations.
“But that’s a case where the guilty pleasure of the inside gouge outweighed my scruples a bit…Inside Delta Force was SUCH a good read.“
Well good to know you’ll admit your priorities. Entertainment and bar room, water cooler, and coffee table quarterbacking first, security and lives of the military somewhere after that.
Yes, the military do work for the people of the United States of America. That’s a given. The problem comes from someone, either in/formerly in the military or someone else, government, former government, Congress, former Congress or media, exposes classified information that has not yet been declassified. ONLY if the purpose is to expose illegal activity (and in the war on those radical islamic slimebags we’re now fighting I’d make that not an exception) should ANYONE be permitted to expose classified information to non-authorized individuals.
THAT’S why you have Congress, and the Executive Branch of the US Government. The President, whoever he/she is, keeps a small group of Senators and Representatives in the loop. The greater the number of people who know a secret, the greater likelihood of that secret being blabbed.
For example, people involved in secret/top secret activities in World War II have (mostly) lived within any non-disclosure agreements they signed. Finally, in some cases 50 years after the end of the war, stuff is being declassified and made available. THAT’S the way this should work. And government, including the leaders of Congress and the Executive Branch, should immediately ferret out anyone who is leaking secret information and prosecute them to the full extent of the law. ESPECIALLY in cases like the NY Times publishing info on the banking activities that were LEGALLY but secretly being used to track and capture terrorists. We elect our government and we should let the government do its job. And a special punishment should be available for people like Jay Rockefeller who sat on a secret Congressional Committee and leaked secrets to the press!
OT, we should also be a lot quicker to prosecute violations of the Logan Act, too.
I did my time in the army in units that dealt with far less secretive matters than exposed in the book in question. Yet I was expected to observe both OPSEC and PERSEC at all times. I even signed a few NDA’s in my time as well.…
This book was not approved, it was deemed to be beyond editing to protect both past and current classified information. The author was told this and decided that he need not follow the rules.
I have had the honor and privilege of knowing men who have served in that Unit and others in the SOF Community. The author betrayed a trust, and he betrayed his Oath and his agreement to not discuss his actions or those of his Unit. Like I said I knew men who served in the Unit, I sure did not know what they did, nor did or will I ever need to know that. “Need to know” is not an excuse to hide away some dirty secrets, it is there to save lives, protect the men and woman who do the things on our behalf.… Sorry, but the attitude that we are all entitled somehow to information of this magnitude is ludicrous. Knowing that there are things going on, people out there laying their lives on the line should be enough. 99.99% of it we will never know, and their deeds will never be publicly acknowledged. Perhaps that is the only part that bothers me, but they know it going in, and accept it as a part of the job..
As to the Tax Payer comment.. man that just rubs me wrong and hard. I pay taxes too, I paid them while I served, as well. So was I paying my own salary? We all pay out taxes, we all pay our share, well perhaps not all of us. This does not give us any right to know anything beyond our pay grade, and or security clearance. Guess what? You do not need to know everything, and you sure do not need to know the level of detail the author went to in writing his book. If you really want to know, then I suggest a trip to the Army recruiting Office would be a good place to start. Make sure you get Airborne in your contract, volunteer for either Rangers or SF… then go ahead after you make your E-5 and request to be assessed…If you are even fortunate enough to be invited for that.
So to all those who did serve and continue to do so, I raise my glass to you and say a prayer that you all come home safe.
Well how about that! The civilians now have a “need to know”. And when they find out what is really going on some of us will be hauled in front of a Senate Findings Commitee and jailed for war crimes and for violating the soverign states of our allies. I can tell you with complete certainty that the book covering my service will not be getting published in my lifetime. I can also say that I do help a ceratin author pen some very good best sellers without sacrificing the oath I took and endangering my fellow troopers. End of story. Torch.