Fed up with schedule delays and soaring costs, the Defense Department late Thursday axed the Armys Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter program that was to provide a replacement for the services ageing OH-58D Kiowa Warrior. The Armys contract with Bell-Textron was valued at more than $6 billion for some 500 new lightly armed scout aircraft. The Armys Kiowa Warriors have seen heavy use in Iraq and are valued among aviators for their exceptional maneuverability at low altitudes.
In a press release, John Young, the Pentagons chief weapons buyer said, Rather than continue this program, I have decided that the best course of action is to provide the Army with an opportunity to define a coherent, disciplined Kiowa Warrior helicopter replacement program, and to obtain more rigorous contract terms for its development.
The ARH was originally projected to cost $8.56 million per aircraft with delivery to begin next year. DoD now estimates the helicopter will cost $14.48 million per copy and the initial delivery date had slipped to 2013.
In the same Pentagon statement, Secretary of the Army Pete Geren stated, The cost and schedule that were the focus of the decision to award the contract to Bell Helicopter are no longer valid. We have a duty to the Army and the taxpayer to move ahead with an alternative course of action to meet this critical capability for our Soldiers at the best price and as soon as possible.
In an Army press release, Lt. Gen James Thurman, Army operations director said, the war-fighting capability for a manned, armed, reconnaissance helicopter is crucial to supporting our ground combat commanders and remains a critical requirement for the Army. To this end, we will rapidly pursue a re-validation of the particular characteristics needed for this capability so that we can restart the process of acquiring a manned, armed reconnaissance helicopter.
The Army has been upgrading its Kiowa fleet with new avionics and electronic countermeasures.
Its a shame they couldn’t fix the issues with the ARH. It looked promising at first and the OH-58D is in seriously need of replacing. At least the Army was smart enough to cancel before too much more money was spent on a bad contract.
Now mabye the big army will bring back the OH-6, I hate that boeing is involved but they seem to be doing great with the CH-47F, maybe they can carry that over to a new ARH-6 or something along those lines.
Should be interesting
I’ll admit I’m not an expert when it comes to scout helos, but what’s wrong with buying militarized Bell 206B3 JetRanger III’s? The mechanics already know how to wrench Kiowas, there’s a good chance of parts compatibility, and the basic design is well proven in combat. Why do we always feel a need to reinvent the wheel?
Mission creep and poor program oversight kill another one. I like Bell and think they should have gotten the LUH contract over the flying Egg, but this one needds to be re-bid and probably go to the ARH-6.
ARH-70 Unit cost = $14.5 million
RAH-66 Unit cost = $13 million
remember how splitting the Comanche program up into multiple helos was supposed to save money?
“ARH-70 Unit cost = $14.5 million
RAH-66 Unit cost = $13 million“
Show me the logic. They replaced a “Lamborghini” with a Yugo,the “Yugo” ends up costing more than the “Lamborghini,” & it still gets cancelled as well. I repeat my statement in my earlier post,no wonder our country is facing national bankruptcy.
The Pentagon could f**k up building a row boat & end up canceling THAT “program” too.
Good Evening Folks,
Like the Camache the ARH– this was a program the Army just didn’t need. The OH-58D, the most numerious helicopter in the Army’s inventory is doing a good job in Iraq and Afghanistan and for the 82nd. Airborne Div. If it works don’t fix it.
The message for Bell-Textron and other defense contractors is change your ways. Senator McCain on Wednesday nigh served up a warning, or maybe even a promise that he was going to agressivly cut defense spending, Senator already has expressed doubts about Missile Defense,in short the days of paying five bucks for a dollars worth of goods is coming to an end, regardless of who elected on Nov.4th.
Also the Fire Scout is breathing down the Army’s neck.
ALLONS,
Byron Sinner
cfoskey:
“ARH-70 Unit cost = $14.5 million
RAH-66 Unit cost = $13 million
remember how splitting the Comanche program up into multiple helos was supposed to save money?“
Says the Sikorsky engineer? I thought it was more like $30 million unit price for 650 Comanches and a $30 billion program overall?
Suspect the thing that killed Comanche was the failed Corps deep attack during OIF that showed that radar stealth would do nothing to deter lots of bullet holes in aircraft when flying a dumb route to the target.
Too bad that attack got all the attention and the one conducted by the 101st a few days later got little to none while far more successful.
And while the Soviets lost over 300 Hinds in Afghanistan, our combat losses for Apaches and OH-58D have been relatively low…despite the very low flight that other services will not attempt.
For once I agree with Roy.….
In many respects, due to the explosion of Predators and other UAV’s, how many of these reconnaissance helicopters are needed?
Granted it must be nice to have them for the flexibility and responsiveness to the local commander, but beyond that what do they bring to the table?
Dennis,
UAVs thrive by being silent, invisible, and persistent at high altitude. They monitor primitive bad guys with impunity for later targeting or intelligence value. If bad guys know you have UAVs and satellites, they tend to use decoys and overhead cover to hide…or they shoot your UAV down.
When a low flying Army manned aircraft enters the picture, it may see the enemy hiding in a treeline or between buildings when flying low over an urban area. It sees enemy obstacles, bridge load ratings, the civil situation, draws enemy fire, and reveals the enemy. It also instills fear in the enemy and confidence in friendly troops. If the enemy turns on radar air defenses to engage a UAV, the Apache radio frequency interferometer will detect it and take out the enemy ADA with an RF Hellfire.
When unmanned aircraft find targets in the silent overhead mode, they can provide information about the enemy to manned aircraft for engagement from standoff. An unmanned aircraft carries limited munitions so that it can stay aloft as long as possible. A manned Army Apache and to a lesser extent an ARH has ample munitions to take out targets found by UAVs and troops in contact.
Upgrade Kiowa Armor & weapons?
Refund Comamche RAH 66 type?
Upgrade Kiowa Armor & weapons?
Refund Comamche RAH 66 type?
Good Morning Cole,
I don’t disagree with you on the current Fire Scout Cole, although it has been tested with the M-134 Gun and the Zuni Rockets by the Army and what ever the results of those tests, they seem to have proved satisfactory, since the Army is now into tests with the TOW-W and Hellfire II on the Fire Scout and the Army has placed an order for enought Fire Scouts to make up an operational Company.
But it must be remembered that the Fire Scout is only the first model of an operational unmanned helicopter. The ARH mission with the success of the Armed Predator, using unmanned armed helicopters would appear to be a good match.
The days of the 160th. Avn. Bn. dictating Army avation doctrine seems tho have died in Karballa in 2003 and in the downing of several helicopters to low tech ground fire in late 05 and early 06.
Also don’t be surprised to see the Army field a C-27(J) “Gunship” soon. The Army already has a fixed wing battalion in TO&E at Ft. Bliss and the aircraft in budget. Little noticed was an expeditanary avation compnay that served in Iraq for over a year, testing fixed wing gunships. The experment was considered oan overwhelming success.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Cole
Bottom line is that the rationale for canceling the Comanche was because of bloated costs. At least with the development of RAH-66 we were able to come out of it with a vast array of new technology to put into use on other products. All that is coming out of the ARH-70 program are a few dressed up 407s, a large divot in an adjacent gold course, and a lot of wasted money.
To avoid confusion, the previous post should have read “a large divot in an adjacent golf course”
“To avoid confusion, the previous post should have read “a large divot in an adjacent golf course”“
————————————
That’s funny. He’s referring to an ARH that autorotated, got a skid stuck in the grass, and rolled. Wouldn’t have happened with wheels, right? I’m waiting for the first Fire Scout to land on a rock with one skid and roll over.
There is one other possibility… though, probably unlikely.
What if the Army ditched the ARH & the Fire Scout programs altogether.
And replaced said programs with a manned/unmanned helicopter like the A/MH-6X. The H-6 is a proven platform. It would reduce logistics, maintenance, and cost. A single helicopter could be rotated between manned & unmanned crews. And unmanned missions could be piloted by non-deployed A/MH-6X crews outside the AO… reducing the cost of extra personnel & training.
“Boeing flies Little Bird unmanned helicopter…“
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2006/07/13/207785/picture-boeing-flies-little-bird-unmanned-helicopter-over-arizona-for.html
“A/MH-6X / MH/AH-6X Unmanned Little Bird (ULB)“
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/amh-6x.htm
Just a thought.
Good Afternoon Cole,
I don’t see much disagrement here. The only points I would like to make is that Karbala was not a problem with hardware or the flying abilities of the air crews of the 11th. AVN Bn., but a doctrine problem.
Most of the opinions and dicussions intra Army that took place and still are after Karbala are classified but even a casual observer of more recent Army helicopter operations in Iraq and Agfhanistan can see radical changes from the operational manual writen by the 160th. AVN Bn. before Iraq.
If your brother in law flew a “Sherpa” in Iraq then he knows about the provisional AVN Bn. that operated there.
As for the C-27(J) gunship we are getting into the political arena and there are four players trying to get the C-27(J) gunships, the Army, the Air Force, the Navy (Marines) and the Special Operations Command, who are pushing to be a seperate branch of the uniformed services. That’s another issue for another day.
ALLONS,
Byron
“Stewart’s Platoon”
Hey Cole and Byron what about a “dumbed down” AH-1? This is a squid talking out his butt, but I have to give props to the Corps and what they have done with the Z model. Why not take that aircraft (I don’t even know what they are paying for them) and take just a few of the offensive capabilities away from it.
They are low profile, in new production, and haven’t had fewer losses than their Army counterparts.
To me, it would be more capable in the armed scout role than the AH-6. Unless the object is to have capability of carrying four guys on side benches.
Oh, and given the current economic situation we find ourselves in don’t think this will be the last program cancellation.
DC2
DC2
I think the AH-1 is cosiderably more expensive in operating costs. The idea seems to be, have a lightly armed and agile quick response and recon helo that has lower costs by being off the shelf and easier on maintenance. Bell just dropped the ball on this one. Maybe boeing can get it right with the little bird.
As for the AH-1 idea.….
Personally, I like it. But, for this role I think you would want something more like an updated AH-1G model, rather than the current Whiskey or Zulu heavies…
Cheaper to operate, lighter, etc., etc.
This talk about Snakes & LOH’s reminds me of a book I read a while back. “Low Level Hell” by Hugh Mills… it was a good read if anybody is interested.
Ontos,
I agree, that was my “dumb down” comment. Single engine vs two, two hardpoints vs four, and a 7.62 coaxial vs. 20 mm.
Try to use as much off the shelf stuff as possible. BAE is already working on the 7.62 minigun for the V-22.
Of course before it was all said and done it would cost more than the Comanche.
DC2
DC2,
Exactly what I was thinking…
Unfortunately, with the way the Pentagon works, it would probably end up more expensive than the Osprey.. forget about the Comanche!
The Australian Army rhas eplaced most of its Kiowas (I bet ther are a few lurking somewhere) with the Eurocopter Tiger as its armed reconnaissance helicopter. Maybe we did it right and you fellows did it wrong. The avionics including targetting system, EW etc are the key expenses , not the airframe and engine, and you only pay for what you get.
That’s OK!But take a closer look following link,It’s great to DVD and PSP converter for mac!
DVD Ripper for Mac,
Mac DVD Ripper Suite,
Mac DVD Converter Ultimate Suite,
Mac DVD Copy,
Mac DVD Creator,
Mac DVD to iPod Converter,
Mac DVD to iPhone Converter,
Mac DVD to MP4 Converter,
Mac DVD to Apple TV Converter,
Mac DVD to PSP Converter,
Mac DVD to BlackBerry Converter,
Mac DVD Audio Ripper,
Edit DVD,
Vob Converter for Mac,
VOB to iPod Converter for Mac,
VOB to Apple TV Converter for Mac,
VOB to PSP Converter for Mac,
VOB to MPEG4 Converter for Mac,
VOB to M4V Converter for Mac,
VOB to 3GP Converter for Mac,
VOB to MPG Converter for Mac,
VOB to AVI Converter for Mac
tontochoc,
I maybe wrong, but I think Australia consolidated it’s armed recon helos (Kiowa) & gunships (Iroquois) into a single bird. The US is, for now at least, going to maintain the separate roles (Kiowa & Apache)… some might refer to it as a Hunter-Killer concept.
“PROJECT AIR 87″
http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/asd/air87/main.cfm
tontochoc,
I maybe wrong, but I think Australia consolidated it’s armed recon helos (Kiowa) & gunships (Iroquois) into a single bird. The US is, for now at least, going to maintain the separate roles (Kiowa & Apache)… some might refer to it as a Hunter-Killer concept.
“PROJECT AIR 87″
http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/asd/air87/main.cfm
Consolidate might be what the idea was but the poor old iroquois were showing their age and a couple of old miniguns and 14 2.75inch rockets and two twin M60s were just not survivable.
The underlying reason was that the RAAF was highly unlikely to provide any F/A-18s for CAIRS and now the Army can provide excellent fire support to the infantry along with the new artillery guns and precision guided rounds coming into service.
That’s OK!But take a closer look following link,It’s great to DVD and PSP
converter for mac!
http://www.macdvdripper.org
http://www.macdvdripper.org/mac-dvd-ripper-suite.html
http://www.macdvdripper.org/mac-dvd-converter-suite.html
http://www.macdvdripper.org/mac-dvd-copy.html
http://www.macdvdripper.org/mac-dvd-creator.html
http://www.macdvdripper.org/mac-dvd-to-ipod-converter.html
http://www.macdvdripper.org/mac-dvd-to-iphone-converter.html
http://www.macdvdripper.org/mac-dvd-to-mp4-converter.html
http://www.macdvdripper.org/mac-dvd-to-apple-tv-converter.html
http://www.macdvdripper.org/mac-dvd-to-psp-converter.html
http://www.macdvdripper.org/mac-dvd-to-blackberry-converter.html
http://www.macdvdripper.org/mac-dvd-audio-ripper.html
http://www.macdvdripper.org/how-to-edit-dvd-trim-video-crop-take-effects.html
http://www.vobconvertermac.com/,
http://www.vobconvertermac.com/vob-to-ipod-converter-for-mac.html
http://www.vobconvertermac.com/vob-to-apple-tv-converter-for-mac.html
http://www.vobconvertermac.com/vob-to-psp-converter-for-mac.html
http://www.vobconvertermac.com/vob-to-mpeg4-converter-for-mac.html
http://www.vobconvertermac.com/vob-to-m4v-converter-for-mac.html
http://www.vobconvertermac.com/vob-to-3gp-converter-for-mac.html
http://www.vobconvertermac.com/vob-to-mpg-converter-for-mac.html
http://www.vobconvertermac.com/vob-to-avi-converter-for-mac.html
My comment is just simple and straight forward.
We must all help to maintain peace in the sub–
region.
Kudos! to you guys at military.com and have a nice
day.