The answer is simple: Submarines cannot fly, but seaplanes can submerge — if you build them properly.
That’s what the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) is seeking to develop. A recent Request for Proposal (RFP) from DARPA calls for a submersible aircraft [that] would combine the key capabilities of three different platforms: (1) the speed and range of an aircraft; (2) the loiter capabilities of a boat; and (3) the stealth of a submarine. “By combining the beneficial characteristics the and operating modes of each platform, DARPA hopes to develop a craft that will significantly enhance the United States tactical advantage in coastal insertion missions,” according to the RFP.
The irony of the RFP is that the U.S. Navy was developing such a craft some 45 years ago.
The objectives issued by DARPA are for a vehicle that would have an airborne tactical radius of 1,000 nautical miles, a low-level flight radius of 100 nautical miles (which may leverage surface effects), and a submerged tactical radius of 12 nautical miles. The sum of these must be achieved within eight hours. Endurance on the surface has to be 72 hours in sea states up to five between inserting and extracting personnel. The craft’s payload objective is eight men and their equipment with a total cargo weight of 2,000 pounds.
DARPA has identified the major challenges to the project as (1) weight, (2) fluid flow regime, (3) structure, (4) lifting surface geometry, and (5) power and energy storage. These factors force the consideration of a seaplane that can submerge as opposed to a “submarine that can fly.” The relatively light construction of an aircraft can be submerged to shallow depths, and to even great depths with internal pressurization. But submarine-like vehicles, built to withstand greater depths, are too heavy for consideration.
The U.S. Navy had begun contemplating the merger of aviation and submarine technologies into a single vehicle as early as 1946. By that time several Navy laboratories were looking into the required technologies. When asked by the press in 1946 whether such a vehicle could be produced, Vice Admiral Arthur W. Radford, at the time the Deputy Chief of Naval Operations for Air, replied: “Nothing is impossible.“
A decade later, in 1955, studies were being conducted under contract from the Department of Defense by the All American Engineering Company while aviation pioneer John K. (Jack) Northrop was designing such craft. The All American vehicle was to alight on and takeoff from the water on “hydro-skis”; once on the water the craft could be “sealed” and submerge.
Although nothing resulted from these studies, by the early 1960s the U.S. Navy was ready to invest in such a vehicle. A Navy engineer working on the project, Eugene H. Handler, explained, in a 1964 article in the U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, “there is… a tremendous amount of [Soviet] shipping in the Soviet-dominated Baltic Sea, the essentially land-locked Black Sea, the Sea of Azov, and the truly inland Caspian Sea. These waters are safe from the depredations of conventional surface ships and submarines.“
The Navy’s Bureau of Naval Weapons — at the time responsible for aircraft development — awarding a contract to Convair in 1964 to examine the feasibility of a “submersible flying boat,” which was being called the “sub-plane” by those involved with the project. The Convair study determined that such a craft was “feasible, practical and well within the state of the art.“
The Bureau of Naval Weapons specified a set of design goals:
air cruise speed 150 — 225 mph
air cruise altitude 1,500 — 2,500 feet
air cruise radius 300 — 500 n.miles
maximum gross takeoff < 30,000 lb
submerged speed 5 — 10 knots
submerged depth 25 — 75 feet
submerged range 40 — 50 n.miles
submerged endurance 4 — 10 hours
payload 500 — 1,500 lb
takeoff and land in State 2 seas
Several firms responded to a Navy request and a contract was awarded to Convair to develop the craft. The flying boat, which would alight and takeoff using retractable hydro-skis, would be propelled by three engines — two turbojets and one turbofan, the former for use in takeoff and the latter for long-endurance cruise flight. Among the more difficult challenges of the design was the necessity of removing air from the engines and the partially full fuel tank to reduce buoyancy for submerging. Convair engineers proposed opening the bottom of the fuel tank to the sea, using a rubber diaphragm to separate the fluids and using the engines to hold the displaced fuel.
To submerge, the pilot would cut off fuel to the engines, spin them with their starter motors for a moment or two to cool the metal, close butterfly valves at each end of the nacelles, and open the sea valve at the bottom of the fuel tank. As the seaplane submerged, water would rise up into the fuel tank beneath the rubber membrane, pushing the fuel up into the engine nacelles. Upon surfacing, the fuel would flow back down into the tank. The only impact on the engines would be a cloud of soot when the engines were started.
When the engines were started their thrust would raise the plane up onto its skis, enabling the hull, wings, and tail surfaces to drain. The transition time from surfacing to takeoff was estimated to be two or three minutes, including extending the wings, which would fold or retract for submergence. Only the cockpit and avionics systems were to be enclosed in pressure-resistant structures. The rest of the aircraft would be “free-flooding.” In an emergency the crew capsule would be ejected from the aircraft to descend by parachute when in flight, or released and float to the surface when underwater. In either situation the buoyant, enclosed capsule would serve as a life raft.
The craft would have a two-man crew and could carry mines, torpedoes or, under certain conditions, agents to be landed or taken off enemy territory.
The Navy Department approved development of the craft, with models subsequently being tested in towing tanks and wind tunnels. The results were most promising. But in 1966 Senator Allen Ellender, of the Senate’s Committee on Armed Services, savagely attacked the project. His ridicule and sarcasm forced the Navy to cancel a project that held promise for a highly interesting “submarine.” Although the utility of the craft was questioned, from a design viewpoint it was both challenging and highly innovative.
DARPA would do well to check the Navy’s historical records as it embarks on the development of a flying submarine — –oops, I mean submerging seaplane.
– Norman Polmar
Ehmm…good luck trying to not get over budget.
I saw this article at military.com
Seems pointless to me… but I guess I’m short sighted.
Great, now I have a migraine. I can’t believe they want to spend money on this, especially with our economy the way it is. This is absolutely pointless by definition.
In the immortal words of Tom Cullen, M-O-O-N. That spells dumb
Every thing always ends up over budget, but this could have potential.
i feel obligated to mention that the inset picture is of lockmart’s Cormorant. it fits in a boomer tube and is not a “round trip” solution. also, it doesn’t carry people.
I’m finding that these DARPA projects are getting more idiotic recently… they must have someone new in charge.
Seriously… plenty of good ideas sometimes… but really! this sort of project doesn’t even need discussing for more than 15 minutes!
Unlimited funds… yes it would work.
Otherwise… what the hell sort of mission can this fulfil that would justify the cost it would take to design such a thing, let alone keep it in service?? Let alone the fact that the range would be terrible. You might as well get a diver to surface with a hand-launched UAV and you would be better off.
Even if this thing doesn’t fly (pun intended) the lessons learned from these types of projects still often have practical implications for systems that actually do end up in production. Push the boundaries long enough, hard enough, and sometimes they move.
Retarded.…
I may just be an old 0311, but instead.… how about:
Rifles that don’t SUCK…
A poncho that folds up into a shirt pocket and keeps me warm and dry for 5 oz.…..
Better SOCKS, boots, gloves, etc.
Pretty much EVERYTHING I’d have to hump made out of some kind of magicly bullet/RPG/herpes resistant sailcloth/titanium/super-light-weight-whatever-in-the-hell…
An intercontinental ballistic chicken-fried-steak and cup-a-coffee? That way I can call up DASC and have them cross-link to Cherry Point so 5 minutes later that thing comes a shootin’ outa a silo in South Dakota with a hot breakfast for me when I’m in lunch-meat-astan or wherever…
Something to keep the skeeters off of me.…
Seriously.… for the kind of money I think it would take to get this working, I want dehydrated water, or riding into combat on a genetically-engineered T-Rex or something.
Did I mention this is retarded?
If they keep it small and make it an extended range aircraft that can submerge (as opposed to a submarine that can fly.…) I can see this working.
If they make it big and fill it full of bells and whistles it will be just another piece of corporate welfare that will fail.
There is already a boat that can submerge:
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008–07/hyper-sub
My turn. DARPA, you reading this?
(1) forget “submerge”. There is no need. the object is a stealthy craft.
(2) concentrate on moving at 200mph. Do-able, inexpensive.
(3) think “airship”.….but (NOT BLIMP!)
here you go: a totaly rigid SHELLED, helium airship, constructed of carbon fiber, and shaped as a very broad, flattened elipsoid craft…this gives you enough volume, but keeps a low profile instead of the traditional cigar blimp shape.
Solar powered, so it has no range limit. no refueling needs, and no limit on linger time in theater.
Scalable, from small UAV types, to craft that can carry 500 tons. (or Company sized fighting units) constructed of stealth materials (carbon fiber), coated with RAM, and flies just a few feet above the water…or, nap of the earth as needed…through canyons, over mountains, across continents. Amphibious, can land at sea, or..on any unprepared field. deliver forces directly to front lines.
survivable? certainly. very small radar signature, no infra-red or acoustic signature at all.…which greatly reduces and missile/manpad lock on…multiple helium cells reducing likelihood of meaningful damage caused by ground fire.…..
and armed. same as C-130 gunship.
all do-able, NOW.
militaryairships dot blogspot dot com
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OOPS! Comment fail. Meant to post that on the “Insectobot” article.
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?
Why? If trying to deliver a torpedo or naval mine, would not a delivery missile (I think the Australians have something similar already called the Ikara) work better. 40 Naval miles is not that long a way — if looking at hitting any high-value asset under airborne radar it’s certainly not that long a way — and if hitting something more vulnerable, then just normal stand-off antiship missiles would seem sensible.
Still, without seeing the detail I suppose I can’t know enough to write it off out of hand.
This flying sub has OBAMA written all over it.
I can see it now:
Obama cancels Strategic Missile Defense because effective weapons are controversial.
Obama cancels the JSF and limits production existing units to be use as an underfunded technology demonstration
Obama cancels the F-22 and auctions off all exiting units to the low bidder.
But this Flying Sub, now to the Obama administration, this has real potential!
Okay, I’m going to say this once. CAN WE STOP TURNING EVERYTHING INTO HOW YOU DON’T LIKE OBAMA!!! Okay, some of you don’t like it. Well, it’s too effing bad, you Republican types had your way for 8 years, the rest of the country has spoken. You have no idea what he’ll do in office so STFU. Go find a political site with an actual thread titled “How much do you hate Obama got elected” otherwise shut your piehole.
In the meantime, honestly, this is a total waste of money. There’s probably like two “what-if” scenarios this would come in useful. Even then, there’s far more efficient ways to do the mission. This isn’t even cool like let’s combine a helicopter and an airplane like the Osprey, that took what half a century of trial and error and those two vehicles at least travel through the same medium. What’s next for DARPA? Perhaps a farm tractor that’s combined with a bomber or how about a plane that’s also a tunnel boring machine?
President Obama is not stupid like you Republicans are so quick to paint him.
He will show you all how to effectively run both the country and the military without the problems brought on by Republicans whose motives are greed and power.
Cutting defense spending in wasteful areas is not a laughing matter. Too much money has gone into these
Hey Steve at November 25, 2008 05:32 PM,
I take it you are espousing the new Administration
Who in the f*ck came up with this crazy idea!
Yeah, you’re right and caught me. My statement that a flying submarine is a fancilful idea IS a broad statement meaning I am against all military research. I can’t believe we waste taxpayer dollars trying to find solutions to IEDs and improved body armor. In fact, in line with my previous comment, I believe any attempt to improve anything painted green or gray is a total waste of time. We should revert to the bow and spear for our forces.
Lets Develop one & find out.
Never know till we some mockup 1/2 size.
Radical idea.
I favor it.
Maybe submerging seaplane should have Manta Ray or Stingray shape for more fuel etc capacity
See TV show Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.
Season 2 plus ( the Color serials).
Use CAD CAE & mockups to test concepts.
Involve the RN.
Why cannot people just read an article and leave the radical politics out. I do enjoy your articles but may take your site out of my computer if these radicals don’t shut up soon. Harold
I really like the way you do your things;whatever weapon that is being manufactured;in my own opinion;is for defense purpose.
But,let us not create an atmosphere of war;rather a calm atmosphere free of terrorism,hatred and the like.
What happened in India;is really a shame and we must condemn such acts.
The UN was established for this reason;and i hope they are capable of calming the storm.
Bravo! to the UN,NATO and other international bodies helping to maintain peace in the sub-region.
I count on usual cooperation.
Thank you.
I really like the way you do your things;whatever weapon that is being manufactured;in my own opinion;is for defense purpose.
But,let us not create an atmosphere of war;rather a calm atmosphere free of terrorism,hatred and the like.
What happened in India;is really a shame and we must condemn such acts.
The UN was established for this reason;and i hope they are capable of calming the storm.
Bravo! to the UN,NATO and other international bodies helping to maintain peace in the sub-region.
I count on usual cooperation.
Thank you.
You conservative republicans never miss opportunities to state President Obama is stupid. You all will be quite surprised to discover that Barack Obama is more conservative than that un elected dry drunkard Bush is when it comes to the military matter.
Barack Obama have concerns for all people of whole world, which includes the United States, and his concern extends past the well being of military contracts and on into more important areas of health care and economic.
Conservative republican calls us stupid because the military is not our number one growth target, but rather it will get smaller. To the people who only see the military as the top important, I say you are gap tooth, knuckle dragging, red necked, neo conservation Republicans. You may want to kill us all, but Obama will save lives.
Your comments about Bush & Obama are un-conclusive Obama has yet to save lives where Bush was doing so the entire time he held office he was trying to save our country.. millions of lives from being subject to terrorist activities local & foreign.
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