I just got some information on the Heckler and Koch bid for the Marine Corps Infantry Automatic Rifle.
You can see the picture here and below, check out the stats:
IAR specs
To me, it basically looks like a 416 with a longer barrel and more robust butt stock. I will say that troops love the H&K box magazines for their lack of hangups in when feeding on burst fire.
Thing is, I hope the deck isn’t stacked against FN and H&K because of Colt’s submission of two weapons. I have absolutely nothing against Colt or its IAR variants (though for some reason they declined to provide me with any details of their weapons for DT or Military.com), I just for once want to see a free and fair competition for the Corps’ new version of the BAR (though in 5.56, much to many’s chagrin)…Without any ole boy networking or bias.
We’ll see though, huh?
– Christian
5.56 still? Hell, why don’t they just go with the .17 Remington?
Posted by: bdwilcox at December 30, 2008 02:23 PM
Oh, come on — .17 Rem? Overkill… Have a look at the .22 Hornet or (I hate myself for even mentioning this) how about the .25 auto? Safest round in the universe… no way to hit what you want, range is under 2 meters, and if you tag a person, a dog, etc… it’s nearly impossible to do anything more than piss them off.
Why aren’t we looking for something in between overkill and useless? The Belgian FN-FAL, Greek built H&K G3 or the Brit L1A1 SLR are great choices and there are crates of them all over the place — so prices are 1/5 that of a ‘new’ 5.56 M-16/M-4 rifle…
let’s just end this silly discussion about .223, .30 or inbetween. go with the .50 .
plenty of rifles around, good range and stopping power. no need for full auto on the rifle, so slight weight penalty not an issue. the M2 should make a good SAW, the squad should have little trouble splitting up the load of the gun, tripod and ammo. that would allow for replacement of the M240 by something like the 25mm chain gun. this would have ammo commonality with the bradley, making logistics less of a problem. if desired a 30mm gun could be used sharing ammo with the Apache. To replace the underpowered Javelin missile I suggest the minuteman family. the marines could use the Trident instead, giving more flexibility given their amphibiious mission.
“the “killing power” of a bullet is the amount of kinetic energy (KE) transferred to the target.“
Not really. This kinetic energy school of thinking was disproved by scientific and practical examination.
Energy transfer doesn’t mean much — there are huge, gigantic differences between 7.62x51mm bullets of the same caliber despite almost identical KE.
Try this:
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf
An M-16 chambered for .50 isn’t out of the realm of possibility:
http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/m16_50.aspx
http://www.50beowulf.com/
the AK –magazine compatibility is an argument , 7.62 should be the minimum caliber, and the rifle should accept AK magazines ( for the reason given above ) , small calibers are wanted by the bureaucratic sys. as the ind. sold. can carry much more of this ammo and , by experience , many sold. waste to much ammo in combat ( and that is a logistic prob
ONCE AGAIN THE BEAUCRATS PUTTING SERVICE MEN & WOMENS LIVES AT RISK. I AGREE WITH AN ABOVE CAPTION 7.62 SHOULD BE THE MIN. CALIBER CARRIED OR MAYBE JUST MAYBE THE US GOVERNMENT MIGHT WANT TO INVEST IN CREATING THIER OWN ROUNDS AND POSSIBLY WEAPONS.
We can always go with teh HK417 in three variants and all in 7.62x51mm NATO.
http://www.hk-usa.com/le_hk417_general.html
Type Designation Caliber Length Barrel length Rate of Fire
HK417 12″ “Assaulter” Model 7.62x51mm NATO 31.69/34.84″
12″ 500–600 rpm
HK417 16″ “Recce” Model 35.62/38.77″ 16″ 500–600 rpm
HK417 20″ “Sniper” Model 39.56/42.71″ 20″ 500–600 rpm
With reference to the 5.56/ 7.62 argument. The 5.56 was introduced as a NATO standard so that all allied forces could re-supply from each other in a worst case scenario. The reason we all moved from 7.62 to the smaller round was that it was beleived that one wounded soldier would remove two more fit men from the battlefield in order to move and support the casualty (5.56 having less lethality than 7.62). Obviosly this logic is irrelevent in todays theatre as I myself have witnessed a suspect suicide bomber hit six times in the torso and he was unaffected enough to exit his vehicle and run for cover. I’d opt for the extra weight of 7.62 every time. For the gun nuts who’re threatening to shoot blokes in the face to prove the efficiency of 5.56, why don’t you try firing each round into a soap block instead, which has the same density as human flesh and also illustrates the terminal ballistic properties fantastically. Also reference the post who commented on the U.S. selling NATO their stock of 5.56, each country’s weapon system is developed around their own design of bullet. The brits have a tiny air pocket in the tip whereas the yanks have solid core throughout (last time I was breifed, though they may have updated). Too many people taking wikipedia as gospel me thinks. (And before anyone invites me to their pad to get my face shot off, I’m a Royal Marines Sniper who’s worked with task force 32 in Afghanistan so its my job to know these things)
The 5.56 vs 7.62 discussion has easily been beaten to death. There are assumptions made on both sides of the argument, whether its an assumption that just being sufficient is enough or if an over kill reaction addresses all design issues. Around the M16/AR15 design the civilian market has created many variants with various chambered calibers, its seems a wasted opportunity to have decide between only two common cartridges. Its like trying to buy a car and limiting yourself to only two choices a Honda Civic or a Ford F150.
5.56X45 Vs. 7.62X51 — A simple test– At 100 yards, take a .375″ Steel Pl. and FMJ bullets. See which one makes it best through the plate. There is something to be said for a little more power. Want a high velocity bullet? Choke the 5.56 down to .17 Cal.or go to the .223 WSM. None of these are practical at long range like the 7.62 in either 51MM length or 54MM length. I don’t have a problem packing 200 rounds of 7.62, and if anyone can’t handle the recoil, which is nothing, they don’t have any business packing any way. There are too many women burning powder in O6’s and Mag. rifles.
Another good comparison is the .762X39, on a good platform, it is a good cartrige.
OK come on A fighting man/woman needs the abillity to hit the target. most shots are at 100-200yards. sounds easy. well it’s not. 1st you have to see the target aim your weapon squeess the triger, and continue to see the target right
ok now the target sees you aims and pulls the trigger. Now its not so easy. the round doesn’t matter unless you are real close.
As a ret. SEAL my weapon of choice was the old M-14 so I could reach out and touch someone. so I am alittle pred. twords it. but I also know I would like more ammo with me. same thing is true with hand guns. I prefer the .45 over the 9mm and this is strictly for the knock down power. But going into a room full of badguys I want more ammo.
I was one of the lucky ones. I got to chose what I carried.
Thanks for letting me vent SHAKEY
HK: Because you suck and we hate you!
if you have effective shot Placement, it won’t matter.
The problem with the 5.56 is the bullet. Has any one ever shot a woodchuck or a larger varmit with this caliber? I have and not to damn meny move after the first round hit including deer. A better designed bullet is a huge answer. I opened up a 200 lb. deer shot with a balistic tip and it looked like it swollowed a hand granade. On a human I believe it would have the same effect, or greater. We need to look at changing the rules of war,and piss on the FMJ, or make it expand like the Brits. or Russians with their 5.45. Their is an answer out there just need the burocrats to keep their noses out of it. I also believe the 6.5 would be a much better choice than the 5.56. But you have to go along way to beat 7.62x51.
We all know that the most dangerous thing in the woods is man. Why wouldn’t you want to hunt them with with the most powerful weapon you could carry. Along with the most damaging round. We can put a man on the moon. But we can’t make a powerful weapon that is light and agile. That’s made here in the U.S.A. by the fathers, mothers,brothers,sisters,sons and daughters. Of the men that are using them. Thats quality control at its best. Give a ground pounder a choice and see which one is picked. In case you forgot wars are won on the ground, unless your going atomic. This is the future. Not the time to be penny wise and dollar dumb. Freedom is the the most precious gift we have.
Only ONE comment in favor of caseless? (Thanks, demophilus) Come on, guys, more rounds and/or bigger balls with less weight in both the arm itself as well as in the ammo? Who WOULDN’T want that? Or is this just a gripe session about who hates whom most?
This battle has been going on since the 60’s. A general wanted this round and the lightweight M16 and he got it, he and his country club buddies were the only ones happy about the change. Fast foward to the 80’s and it happened again with the 9mm vs 45acp battle, a general wanted it and got it despite complaints from the troops. Now here we are today — 45acp is back for it’s stopping power and the officers in country want it, only now we tax payers are stuck with $1200.00 price tags for the new 1911’s vs the original purchase price of $35.00 each ( which is what units were still charged for them through the supply system into the 80’s ). Also during the 80’s we pressured everyone in NATO to adopt the 5.56mm, they were all still using 7.62mm (H&K’s and FN’s), We all know there are better calibers out there, if it were up to me M4’s would be rebarreled to 357 magnum and be loaded with 158gr semi jacketed semi wad cutters ( definately a man stopper. and good close combat round under 100 yds ). but it would be no good in open terrain. That is the problem, it has to be muliti functionable in all terrains. To me the best weapon is the Isreali Galail ( an improved and modernized AK47/FN spinoff ) it is cheap to mfg like the original AK and very rugged, it was available in 5.56mm, 7.62mm, and 7.62X39 for covert ops. We pressured Isreal to adopt the M16 and M4 finally and their troops are not happy about it at all. The 7.62 is making a come back, 1000’s of M14’s were pulled off shelf’s and sent to the gulf and Ar10 variants have also been purchased in large numbers and sent over after the supply of M14’s ran out. So the officers in country are aware of what is needed, they want .45’s and 7.62’s, and 12ga shotguns in large ammounts. SOCOM units are also getting by utilizing 77gr 5.56mm in thier 416’s for extra heft ( no steel penetrators either for more expansion ). But the generals sitting around stateside still decide what gets bought from who regardless of what the warfighters request. always have and always will. Does the 5.56mm have a history of killing YES but it was the M193 55gr projectile fired from a 1 in 14 twist barrel, not the 64gr stell penetrator tipped M855 fired from a 1 in 7 twist barrel adopted in the late 80’s. This is where the confusion starts. The stell tip and faster twist rate causes minimal damage at close range, it’s intent was for ranges of over 300 yds fighting the russians in europe not urban warfare. The exotic ammo everyone keeps talking about will not happen, too costly and too much tool replacement and facility down time at Lake City Ammunition Plant. It has to be 7.62mm or a better 5.56mm flat out.That is what needs realistic input. Mine is to use the M856 tracer jacket which is twice as long as the ball round jacket, and fill it with led resulting in a much heavier bullet that will expand better. Hollow points are not going to happen for regular issue, yes we do have open tip 7.62 long range sniper ammo but it is 10x the cost of a ball round and why it’s use is limitted. So now what is everyones advice????
The problem w/ HK is the customer service. They won’t be able to deliver the number necessary and they won’t be able to supply parts for them.
Once the sale has been completed they will treat the customer like crap. I used to work for HK for about 6 years as a trainer. I know what their management will do.
They have little intelligent leadership stateside.
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Very interesting.
The H&K candidate has a fairly high cyclic rate of fire, which could be problematic for a magazine fed automatic weapon. History suggests that the ideal rate of fire should be closer to 500 rpm rather than the H&K which pushes 900 rpm.
Higher cyclic rate increases the rate of wear on a machinegun, but the greater problem is tactical. Accuracy and economy of fire, which can be critical for a squad level weapon, suffers at high cyclic rates.
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