I also spoke with Darren Mellors, vice president for business development from LWRC, about their losing bid on the Marine Corps Infantry Automatic Rifle competition.
He showed me their bid for the new gun contract, which is intended to replace the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon in rifle squads and light armored reconnaissance units. Colt won two contracts for two separate weapons, FNH-USA won another and H&K won a third limited contract for 10 test weapons from whom the Corps will decide a winner.
Basically, the LWRC IAR candidate can be fired in semi-or-full auto, fires its first shot from a closed bolt and then operates from an open bolt configuration to keep the action cool under full auto fire. It has a gas-piston operating system and a heavy barrel with a nickel Teflon finish to absorb all the abuse from thousands of rounds.
I asked Mellors about the limited capacity a 30 round mar gives an automatic rifleman with this kind of setup. First of all, he said they’d been in talks with Maul to develop a higher capacity “quad-stack” mar akin to an experimental AK-74 one that feeds four stacks of ammo through a single channel in one 55-round magazine. But the company was reluctant to pitch the new mar with its IAR for fear it would undercut their bid as being too risky.
He also said that concerns about the lack of firepower from the IAR are unfounded because as the Marine Corps sees it, with all the urban fighting that’s been going on, the need has shifted to point suppression fire rather than area suppression.
“Most of the time, the automatic rifleman is focused on suppressing one window, rather than a large swath,” Mellors said of the Corps’ thought process. “Your not suppressing big enemy positions.”
And he also reiterated the argument that the SAW is very heavy and virtually useless in a room-to-room fight. The IAR will give the automatic rifleman a lot more to do than simply helping cordon the building.
Rumor around many of the competitors’ booths was that small companies like LWRC lost out on the IAR contract because the Corps was nervous about a company’s ability to deliver enough product on time. Clearly the expertise is there to build an IAR, but can they ramp up to the quantities needed and deliver support if something goes wrong.
That question strikes at the heart of the oncoming debate over a potential replacement for the M4 (and for who might eventually win the USMC IAR contract). Colt had a booth at the SHOT show, but it was not in the law enforcement and military section, but embedded deeply within the hunting and sports area of the show.
I tried to talk with someone there about their IAR candidate (which Colt has declined repeated requests for information on) and was told they didn’t have any of their military/LE goods on display. I asked why, despite the hundreds of vendors in that part of the show, Colt wasn’t represented and was told “this is primarily a hunting and sporting venue”…
Try and tell that to the Berettas, FNHs, LWRCs, Magpuls and Smith and Wessons of the world. And does this also smack of over confidence?
We’ll see. I’m still waiting to hear from Colt about the weapons they’re pitching to the Corps.
– Christian
{ 31 comments… read them below or add one }
The size of the company shouldn’t detract from technical merit of the product. We have been dragging our feet on new weapons anyways, why the rush to bang out guns so quickly? If anything, a slow gradual issue of weapons will allow for detection of mechanical issues that can be ironed out. I am suddenly thinking about the M16′s early days…
Charles; the ability of a company to scale up a great idea from prototype/pre-production to full production and support DOES make a difference. The ability to fulfill the contract matters. Whether the contract is reasonable is subject to discussion but once signed it should be met.
To the poster “tipover”:
You wrote: “Charles; the ability of a company to scale up a great idea from prototype/pre-production to full production and support DOES make a difference.”
Are we (you) at war, is the front collapsing or do you simply favour big companies?
If not, what’s the hurry with mass-producing the new Infantry Automatic Rifle and phasing out the M249 ? Why not sub-contract the superior design to the (losing) bigger companies? Because now “quantity over quality” is a new criterium to choose U.S. American Infantry weapons?
How shocking, FNH, HK, Colt won light weapons contracts. They are the big three, and will win every contract. Offering a competition for the little guys is just for show, and legal CYA. But I guess, it needs to be that way, because what is the point of having the greatest XYZ, if you have no ability to produce in high volume.
I don’t see the point of 5.56 IAR, especially if it is mag fed instead of drum or belt. Seems like too many guns are now in the battle. Carbines, SAW, IAR, DM, sniper,..etc. On top of that, Afghanistan needs different tools, than Iraq.
I too have a problem with the rejection of LWRC because they are small.
There was a time when Colt didn’t have factories “pumping out” M-16s. Once the contract was awarded they were able to either scale up, or reconfigure.
It make you wonder what they were thinking.
A related situation just occurred to me.
Magpul has contracted with Bushmaster to manufacture their rifle. It seems that size does matter. : )
Most NATo armies have rifles with auto capability which are not restricted to single shot mode so IAR’s is a bit like reinventing the wheel
I’m concerned about the statement regarding how the requirement is NOW for point vice area suppression… so if the requirement ever changes back, is the Corps going to be stuck with a weapon that doesn’t meet both point and area suppression requirements? I’d think better one that does both well. Comments?
I’m not a military man. But I thought the SAW was designed for the specific purpose of area suppression. What’s the purpose of replacing it with a rifle that can only fire 30 rounds before needing to change magazines? If you’re willing to sacrifice a machine gun that can fire 200 rounds at a time for the sake of improved room clearance, why not just equip the squad member with another M-4, or a shotgun?
the weapon is to replace the 249 in “armored recon units”. It makes perfect sense. The saw is to big and heavy for room clearing and humping up the mountains of afganistan. For not much more weight id gladly carry a 240 and dramatically increase my effective range. As far as magazine fed, well if its magazine fed then the weapon can be kept much lighter. No need to have a quick change barrel since you cant burn a 200 round box through it. Mag changes should slow the operators rate of fire down to the point where he cant harm the lightweigh weapon too mich.
A good army needs good gear and to treat their gear as baby because it is their live that depends on it after youre mates!
A good army needs good gear and to treat their gear as baby because it is their live that depends on it after youre mates!
How much ego is involved here?
License [or rip-off] one of the AKs. They work just fine, proven design, easy to manufacture, does everything the specs call for.
Hugo Chavez in Venezuela is building a factory to manufacture them. Maybe we can get them at a discount, along with some of his oil.
That is a terrible picture. I can’t make out a thing.
Same rifle reworked to do some things differently. The cheap way out.
I seem to remember that the good old M1 and M14 were made by a variety of manufacturers and at different armorys like Springfield. I suspect that the original patent holder subcontracted and the subcontractor paid a royalty. What was wrong with that system when ramping up manufacturing a large quantity was required.
Semper Fi
phase out the m249 is a bad idea. this new weapon IAR is a no go by me. the m4 and m14 and m16 can all fire full auto, so we dont need this.. it looks more like a SR25 than a ‘heavy machine gun’ even so, the clip cap is too low, thats around 5-10 seconds of firing on full auto. too short.
Tell David Bellavia the SAW is worthless for room clearing in buildings. He seemed to use one to good effect in Fallujia, saving his squad.
For more detail, read the book “House to House”.
The OPEN Bolt configuration is a problem to me. Marines Crawl through the Dirt, Mud, Snow and make amphibious assaults from Landing Crafts. After the first round is fired and the Bolt being in the Open Position for cooling, What’s the Risk to the Marine when an injected foriegn object causes weapon rupture and a flying bolt to the face.
I have a problem with the number of rounds the IAR mag’s hold. How fast can you burn through 30rnds on full-auto? I don’t see the point, if it can’t be fitted with a C-mag or something, wats the point? Sounds like Colt knows something we don’t, and thier gas impingement system sux. Needed: A LMG at squad level, lite and small for urban warfare, must use a 100 or 50 rnd mag. Doesnt the G36 fit the profile?
Sounds like the reintroduction of the BAR…
why would we want to degrade our fire power so much by traing in a 100 round weapon for somthing that is little more than a m-16 on full auto? Urban Warfare is only one enviroment on the battle field, we need the SAW or a weapon like it for all other enviroments..Urban warfare is pretty rare in Afghanistan so i would much rather have my SAW. This is a waste of resources…maybe it can replace the M-16 as the standard issue.
I’ll keep my m14
semper fi
Choosing a gun for the street to street fight in Iraq, as they move to mountainside fighting in Afghanistan. Probably update the Guidebook for Marines with a desert section just in time for winter ops.
This sounds like a full auto M16, why not just call it what it is?
From what I’ve read the reasons for the IAR and it being mag fed have to do with being more portable and easier to use in MOUT than a SAW and the rifle design makes it so that the automatic rifleman doesn’t stand out particularly from his squad mates thus making him less of a target. Sort of the same reason why officers no longer distinct uniforms in the field and why they carry rifles in addition to their pistols and why you don’t salute them in the field, all so that they don’t stand out as being somebody special and thus worthy of being made a priority target.
The ‘deprioritize target’ (which strangely sounds like “de-aggro” to me) rationale reminds me of the Army and Marine Corps using a modified M16 instead of the M14 for a squad-level DMR.
Here’s hoping that the Corps press about how it’s not a 1:1 replacement for the M249 is true, allowing unit leaders to use both according to their needs; if so, I don’t see the problem with IAR for the intended niche. After all, I thought that the Army and Marine Corps were still issuing semi/burst M16A4s and M4s? (In addition to whatever A2s remain.)
Hello All,
I seem to recall back in my active service days, that the M249 is too Heavy(this coming from the Elite 82nd) so they had the barrels milled down, then they complained that the barrels were bending…….come on folks get a cleu, until we can make complete weapons out of titanium,carbon fiber and lord knows what else, your still going to need mass of material, on to the subject of mag capacity……I used to have a drum Magazine for my M16….But I’m inclined to go with the sealed box of belt fed ammo that the 249 uses
Oh yes, so much better, having a chain dragging crap into your open reciever instead of a box mag plugging the hole.
MOST MGs are open bolt. The LWRC concept solved the “crap in the gun” issue by setting it up to fire closed bolt in semi mode and switch to open bolt when you are firing long bursts. No belt mech makes it lighter. Want more ammo on tap than a 30 round mag? Use a Beta-C (100 rounds). Dont SAW gunners have a cogunner to help them with belt changes? Couldn’t the same be done faster with magazines, and keep the gun from overheating.
Come on guys, think outside the box JUST a little.
Specterprime, your mention of the M249 box reminds me of the Ares Shrike. However, I distinctly remember getting a sense of it being vaporware… Ares Defense has said as of December 23rd, 2008 that moving from Virginia to Florida affected their ability to ship the Shrike 5.56 to customers, so I wouldn’t be surprised if the Marine Corps took notice of this in not contracting them for the IAR.
As for the C-Mag mention… I really hope that it’s gotten beyond “C-MAG Results:
Isn’t this essentially just the M16A1-based XM106 SAW candidate all over again?