The Air Forces chief of staff was careful to withhold his professional military advice until Defense Secretary Robert Gates gets it, but Gen. Norton Schwartz told reporters this morning that he would not dispute comments by the chairman of the Joint Chiefs late last year that the service would get an additional 60 F-22s, for a total of 243.
Schwartz then poured cold water on any hopes the Japanese and Australians might have of buying F-22s, saying some of the technologies in the plane are just too sensitive to export. However, he said it was a possibility that allies could pay for planes that were modified extensively enough to eliminate the export concerns. Given how expensive that would be, Schwartz has probably put the kibosh on export sales.
The Air Force chief of staff defended the decision to scale back the long sacred Air Force requirement of 381 F-22s, saying the service had performed honest and objective analysis to determine the new number of planes. Ill be happy to defend the numbers once they become available, he told us, adding that the new fleet size offers moderate risk to the nation.
Of course, this doesnt necessarily mean that 60 is the exact number everyone has decided on, but Schwartz didnt try to pour cold water on it either He did say the final decision should be out very close to the congressionally mandated date of March 1.
Asked about John Youngs comments last November that the F-22s mission capable rate was too low and expected enhancements too expensive for the country to afford, Schwartz said the truth of the matter is the F-22s rate is 60 percent including stealth issues and is in the mid– to high-70s without low observable issues. Looking at the system overall, the F-22s reliability is respectable, he said.
Read the rest of this story and more acquisition news at DoD Buzz.
– Colin Clark
{ 27 comments… read them below or add one }
im fine with this compromise. buying any more would be a waste. seeing as unmanned is the future. adding 60 more would be a good stopgap till be have a unmanned air superiority fighter.
whats even more funny are the ads about the jobs related to the f-22. apparently they called it is, a federal jobs program. at least we get something out of it compared to fat welfare moms.
ok — where are all the Norm Dicks/Boeing people saying that this isn’t fair and we should split the buy and bring back the YF-23 ?
The USAF should stick to their requirement for the full 380 or so. We should not replace additional F-22As with additional F-35s. The 1600 F-35As the USAF is already expected to buy are enough.
Air Force
-You can’t always get what you want
Sintax, while I agree with you that unmanned is the future for some roles, I don’t think so for the foreseeable future for air supremacy. There are just too many variables for us to trust that with a computer just yet. Sometimes good old fashion humans in control are best.
The Air Force wanted 381 while the lawmakers and the Joint Chiefs wanted 180. So I had always thought that they should compromise with 270-280. Now it looks like they might be getting close to that.
600 Raptors, cut the AF F-35 to 700.
“Schwartz then poured cold water on any hopes the Japanese and Australians might have of buying F-22s, saying some of the technologies in the plane are just too sensitive to export. However, he said ‘it was a possibility’ that allies could pay for planes that were modified extensively enough to eliminate the export concerns. Given how expensive that would be, Schwartz has probably put the kibosh on export sales.”
Japan is eying the European Typhoon as a successor to the F-15J, if its plans to acquire the F-22 fail.
It’s a very competitive market…
Well, if there are 243 planes, and a 60% capability rate, that is 145 capable at any given time. And, if the Air Force is right that an F-22 is as good as 30 of Russia’s best, then that means the F-22 fleet should be sufficient against 3,270 hostile aircraft in air to air combat.
So, I guess that means that after the new planes are built, the Air Force needs no more fighters for air to air combat. And, given that smart bombs are allegedly someting like ten times as accurate as the pre-Afghan War versions, I guess we need to replace only about 10% of the F-16s with F-35s, and can scrap the rest.
@freefallingbomb; Japan has its own 5th generation fighter project.
@ohwilleke; the dynamics of air campaigns are much more complex – and the USAF didn’t claim what you assert it did. Exchange ratio isn’t the same as strength.
@JH; I think there were already 187 F-22 authorized/bought so far.
60-80% readiness isn’t great (90% is), but many aircraft had readiness issues in their first years and improved later very much. It’s in part a matter of ground personnel experience and small hardware tweaks.
It’s ridiculous to spend so much on the military in the midst of a economic crisis – and this isn’t just an economic crisis – it’s pretty much the end of the U.S. economic model since the 1970′s.
These wonder weapons will be countered in 15 years anyway.
I don’t understand why we don’t sell the f-22 to Australia? They’ve been one of our best if not the best ally the US has EVER had. Australian soldiers have fought along US soldiers in every major conflict since WWI. They spilled their blood for us.
I can understand not selling the Raptor to Japan and Israel. Both cannot be trusted to keep out secrets. Also Israel spies on us almost as much as China and Russia so they don’t deserve our best fighter.
To the poster Mr. Sven Ortmann:
You wrote: “Japan has its own 5th generation fighter project.”
Yes, but so far it consists only of one (two ?) mock-up(s?).
The European Typhoon in contrast is absolutely pr
To the poster “jack”:
You wrote: “I don’t understand why we don’t sell the f-22 to Australia?”
It’s not their fault, it’s probably someone else’s fault: Because Japan also wanted the F-22, and Japan is an economical Super-Power while Australia is not, but I believe that the U.S.A. didn’t quite trust the Japanese’s ability and / or willingness to protect all the F-22′s secrets. So the U.S.A. were faced with a dilemma: How do you diplomatically say no to your biggest and richest business-partner in the World, Japan, while simultaneously saying yes to your penni-less Anglo cousin Australia? In my opinion, refusing the F-22 to Australia and then making up some lame general excuse for not exporting the F-22 to anyone at all was the price which the U.S.A. HAD to pay to solve this dilemma as diplomatically as possible.
I, at least, never take any official statements of the U.S.A. by face value, there is ALWAYS a different motive for what they say!
can understand not selling the Raptor to Japan and Israel. Both cannot be trusted to keep out secrets. Also Israel spies on us almost as much as China and Russia so they don’t deserve our best fighter.
Posted by: jack at February 17, 2009 04:37 PM
jack every nation spys on every other nation thats just the way it is.
as for israel not being trust worthy…..do you realize how much weapons reaserch goes on between us and israel? there very trust worthy as long as we dont try to f&%k them.
As for ausstrlia i agree that they have been some of our best allies bleed and fought in the same wars and have had our back. times are changing aussies are now suffering from a extreme increase in radical islam and realy dont seem to know what to do about it.
Id love to see australia as a closer allie in the future but they have become apathetic and well there becoming european.
and hell our own president gives our military secrets to china so hey why worry.
A link about the Israeli matter.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f22-raptors-to-japan-01909/
May 23/07: Given the Raptor
Ok thanks drake but i guess i should clairefy
give israel the down modded f22…dont know about the others…speaking of which is the down modded f22 more or less expensive and if so how much?
So much cost seems to go into making a plane uber stealth these days
Readiness rate of 60%, ouch! Hope that number gets better and is better for F-35.
freefallingbomb,
Are you even CAPABLE of getting your facts straight?
Japan is more likely to try & develope its own 5th generation fighter or at least opt for the F-35 before it SERIOUSLY considers the Typhoon. The Typhoon is a great 4th generation fighter BUT IT IS STILL A 4th GENERATION FIGHTER & with China rumered to be working on its own 5th generation fighter, I doubt Japan is willing to risk its security to ‘obsolete’ 4th generation fighters.
The last 60 F-22 cost an average of ~$145 million each & LM has indicated that if production were to continue that the price could drop to ~$120 million. With the exchange rates of late, the Typhoon costs over $100 million.
What is SO difficult to understand about “some of the technologies in the plane are just too sensitive to export” even to the most trusted allies? Asking the US to export the F-22 now is akin to asking it to have exported the SR-71 in the 1970s or the F-117 in the 1990′s.
“some of the technologies in the plane are just too sensitive to export”
That’s not a nature’s law or military necessity, but legal understanding since two U.S. senators successfully sponsored a bill that prevents the export (IIRC).
It’s a political decision to define the F-22 as too technologically sensitive. They could turn around in two weeks.
Interesting conversation here. There always is with F-22 posts.
First of all, is the F-22 as good as 30 Russian planes? Depends what you want them to do. One F-22 can’t shoot down 30 Russian jets in one mission — it simply doesn’t have enough missiles. But Russian aircraft can’t act as forward spotters like the F-22 can, guiding missiles in from less advanced aircraft. Russian jets can’t penetrate heavily defended airspace in the same way as the F-22. The F-22 can’t win a dogfight against a dozen enemy aircraft at once — a Raptor in that situation is screwed. Hopefully our pilots will be good enough to not get into a situation like that.
It really just depends on how you try to use them. You can’t just say “well, Russia has 500 of these, and one of ours is as good as five of theirs, so we need 100.” It doesn’t work that way. We might be able to shoot down the entire Russian air force with a dozen jets, but if ours are sitting in South Korea, and Russia is bombing France, we’re sort of out of the picture. So you need to have enough forces to spread around to different locations, and still be useful.
What about Japan and Australia. For once, I agree with FFB. We can’t exactly sell the F-22 to Australia and NOT sell it to Japan. The political ramifications are too great. While the Australians have been great allies, we’ve had a continued base presence in Japan since WWII. Japan plays a more critical role in our East Asian plans, even if we don’t trust them as well as we trust Australia.
There are other cost questions to consider beyond the purchase price (in regards to simply flooding the sky with inexpensive jets). Pilot training, fuel costs, maintenance costs, logistics support — all of those go up dramatically when you start buying 10 less advanced jets instead of one advanced jet. Not that those choices are necessarily bad — I think most countries will do just fine without the F-22 — it’s just that it isn’t as simple as “this is the sticker price.”
“it simply doesn’t have enough missiles. But Russian aircraft can’t act as forward spotters like the F-22 can, guiding missiles in from less advanced aircraft”
I disagree.
A datalink cooperation with very similar characteristics (but SARH missiles at that time) was actually published for MiG-31 and Su-27 as early as in the early 90′s.
I doubt the Aussies would buy the F-22 even if we offered it. Sure they admire the plane; I admire corvettes’, but I’m not about to spend all my money on one and go broke.
Same is probably true for the IDF. If I were the IDF, I’d consider pursuing Gripen, if the F-35 is delayed, and if an immediate replacement is needed for early model F-15s and -16s. The Gripen would suite their needs admirably (short take-off and rapid sorty rate.)
If I were the JDF, I’d buy up some new F-16s or super hornets to replace the phantoms.I’d also admit that the F-2 is garbage, and replace those as well. Next I’d buy F-35s for top line use, and SLEP/radically upgrade the F-15 fleet over time.
Make these plans public, and see what falls out, see how the US gov reacts. Especially if you threaten to run EF-2000, and Rafale in the competition; might be a good way to see who’s willing to make the better deal.
60-70% is pretty darn good for a brand spanking new plane. No telling how much of that is real genuine maintenance, and how much is exploratory inspections,Dog and pony show time, and “We have a question not covered in Tech Data” lag time. I’m sure that 70% could be bumped up if there was a genuine need to get planes up pronto.
Accualy the idf would have very little use for a f22 99% of the time since there country is rathe tiny. f35 would probbly be better.
The only real reason i can see for a f22 would be an attack on iran or to just get the weapons tech
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