Comments on: CSAR Advocates Hope for Another Resurrection

By: Arcane

Arcane — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:41:35 +0000

I’m really not trying to take a cheap shot or piss anybody off but have AF CSAR done much in OIF/OEF?
There have been thousands of personnel recoveries in OIF/OEF conducted by USAF CSAR forces. Additionally, CSAR contributes to domestic SAR operations, rescuing over 4,000 people during Hurricane Katrina and a few hundred since then. It’s not just for the recovery of pilots, and CSAR forces regularly conduct missions supporting MEDEVAC and SOF, the latter in conjunction with units such as the 160th SOAR.
And Charles, this was a decision made not by an Air Force general, but by Secretary Gates.
As for whether or not this is a joint mission, that’s a very good question. For example, Gates thinks you can simply deploy more Army UH-60s to make up for the lack of USAF HH-60s, but the Army 60s are not equipped with hoists and the additional special operations modifications necessary for CSAR missions, so it’s sort of a wash.

By: Charles

Charles — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 03:06:27 +0000

Curtis: Noted. Even so, it seems that the brass has little appreciation for CSAR, that or CSAR-X has sucked up enough money and the scaleback is one of those “intervention” moments executed in the hopes of encouraging program managers to get their crap together.

By: Curtis

Curtis — Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:09:19 +0000

I think you guys are underestimating AF CSAR and PJs.
AF CSAR specializes in infiltrating unfreindly airspace and going into hot and heavy LZs, where most other helicopter forces specialize in trying to avoid them. CSAR aircraft have better sensor equipment for night time, bad weather, underfire flight. Most army and marine trans helos don’t. Most CSAR helos have refueling booms. Most army birds don’t.
While the primary mission is to fly deep into hostile turf to get downed pilots, that is not the only task that CSAR pulls. Airforce Pararescue men have taken 12 of the 22 airforce crosses handed out. PJ school has a 90 percent fail rate, higher then SEAL training, and the highest in our entire military. A CSAR helo was involved during the battle of Mogadishu, and one of them was awarded an AF cross.
For some real PJ history, look up the history of William Pitsenburger. He was a Senior Airman (E-4) who’s airforce cross was recently upgraded to the MoH.
Here’s his MoH citation:
Airman First Class Pitsenbarger distinguished himself by extreme valor on April 11, 1966 near Cam My, Republic of Vietnam, while assigned as a Pararescue Crew Member, Detachment 6, 38th Aerospace Rescue and Recovery Squadron. On that date, Airman Pitsenbarger was aboard a rescue helicopter responding to a call for evacuation of casualties incurred in an on-going firefight between elements of the United States Army’s 1st Infantry Division and a sizable enemy force approximately 35 miles east of Saigon. With complete disregard for personal safety, Airman Pitsenbarger volunteered to ride a hoist more than one hundred feet through the jungle, to the ground. On the ground, he organized and coordinated rescue efforts, cared for the wounded, prepared casualties for evacuation, and insured that the recovery operation continued in a smooth and orderly fashion. Through his personal efforts, the evacuation of the wounded was greatly expedited. As each of the nine casualties evacuated that day were recovered, Pitsenbarger refused evacuation in order to get one more wounded soldier to safety. After several pick-ups, one of the two rescue helicopters involved in the evacuation was struck by heavy enemy ground fire and was forced to leave the scene for an emergency landing. Airman Pitsenbarger stayed behind, on the ground, to perform medical duties. Shortly thereafter, the area came under sniper and mortar fire. During a subsequent attempt to evacuate the site, American forces came under heavy assault by a large Viet Cong force. When the enemy launched the assault, the evacuation was called off and Airman Pitsenbarger took up arms with the besieged infantrymen. He courageously resisted the enemy, braving intense gunfire to gather and distribute vital ammunition to American defenders. As the battle raged on, he repeatedly exposed himself to enemy fire to care for the wounded, pull them out of the line of fire, and return fire whenever he could, during which time, he was wounded three times. Despite his wounds, he valiantly fought on, simultaneously treating as many wounded as possible. In the vicious fighting which followed, the American forces suffered 80 percent casualties as their perimeter was breached, and airman Pitsenbarger was finally fatally wounded. Airman Pitsenbarger exposed himself to almost certain death by staying on the ground, and perished while saving the lives of wounded infantrymen. His bravery and determination exemplify the highest professional standards and traditions of military service and reflect great credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Air Force.[4]
Trying to use non CSAR assets to fulfill the role will require alot of expensive upgrades to the other services’ helos’ and alot of additional training for thier pilots and crews.
But when you are in the thick of things, outnumbered and outgunned, with baddies on all sides, you want CSAR. You want PJs, and you do not want them coming in the best helos with the best pilots.

By: Charles

Charles — Sat, 18 Apr 2009 15:10:09 +0000

JEFF,
I suppose since very few AF fixed-wing have been shot down that AF CSAR is farly un-busy.
What I want to know is why CSAR isn’t multi-service or joint? I can imagine AF CSAR guys sitting around waiting as helicopters go down because “the army guys will take care of it”. Dunno if it’s an accurate picture, but I’ve never thought of the branches as a happy family.
Perhaps a SARCOM (Search and Rescue Command) is required?

By: Dennis

Dennis — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 21:58:16 +0000

Not to be a smart ass, but even with all of its development problems wouldn

By: JEFF

JEFF — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 19:17:52 +0000

I’m really not trying to take a cheap shot or piss anybody off but have AF CSAR done much in OIF/OEF? I don’t really know about much of what’s going on in theater but I don’t recall ever hearing of AF CSAR crews picking anybody up since Gulf War 1. Seems like the Army has done most of these kinds of pick ups, mostly because it’s Army helicopters getting shot up (or so I guess) but I’m really just asking a question here.

By: ProjectThor

ProjectThor — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:55:32 +0000

@ Earlydawn
When the sh*t hits the fan, you really don’t care WHO comes to get you, as long as they are friendlies. The 160th has pulled some people out of tight jams more than once.
The money needs to be shelled out. gates needs to remove his head from Obama’s rectium.

By: Earlydawn

Earlydawn — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 17:07:08 +0000

Does any other branch besides Air Force do the Special Forces approach to CSAR? Every branch is obviously going to have guys trained to pull people out of downed aircraft and vehicles, but I thought only pararescue (doctrinally) did behind enemy lines recovery. I know Marines experimented with TRAP for a while.

By: Charles

Charles — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:13:25 +0000

Is CSAR supposed to be multi-service? If so then screwing CSAR is bound to cause havoc.
I mean, AF pilots probably think they won’t get shot down much so maybe a new CSAR helicopter isn’t on their minds? But if I recall in OIF quite a few Apaches were shot down. You’d think that CSAR would receive a higher priority in light of it.

By: Earlydawn

Earlydawn — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 16:04:21 +0000

Things like this drive me crazy. We can cancel the Commanche a couple hundred-mil from completion after a multi-billion dollar project, but we can’t spare three billion to help recover pilots worth a lot of money in and of themselves during a time of unpopular casualty rates..