As you all well know, I’ve been dogging Rep. John Murtha, the powerful chairman of the House Appropriations Committee’s defense subcommittee, pretty hard ever since his fly-off-the-handle accusation of murder by a squad of Marines in Haditha back in mid-2006.
Well, I nervously attended a roundtable interview this morning in DC with Murtha and a group of the country’s top defense writers — figuring I might get the cold shoulder from the Democratic Bull. But I was surprised to find that he was remarkably candid, brewing with news and even friendly. A far cry from the confrontational chairman I’d peppered with questions in the past.
He said a lot of stuff on defense tech issues — info we’re going to build into longer stories in the coming hours — but what I thought I’d do is give you all a data dump of the basics of what he said…a sort of tear out of the pages of my reporter’s notebook, if you will:
Tanker — Murtha said he was strongly in favor of a split buy because he thought no matter who “wins” a recompete, there will be yet another protest that will delay the fielding and hamper global reach efforts. He wants a production throughput of three planes per month which he says even with the split buy, will save money in the long run because of the near crushing maintenance costs of keeping the KC-135s aloft. Murtha had just met with DefSec Gates the previous day, and though Gates has said publicly he’s against a split buy, Murtha said “I don’t know that he’s against it” hinting that the White House might be driving that argument and Gates might have some flexibility on the issue.
Raptor — Lots here. First, Murtha is against the shut down of the F-22 line for what he says are purely national security issues. He says he’s going to try and find $3.2 billion (my notes said $20B but i re-listened to the recording and he said $3.2B — not sure why I wrote $20B) to build 20 more next year and has asked Gates to provide him with some national security threat estimates that would justify NOT buying more Raptors. Murtha says he’s concerned about a rising China competing for energy resources in the coming years and noted that “World War II started because we cut off Japan’s energy supply” (though I gather some historians would object to that characterization). Murtha said he’s 50/50 on whether he can get the money for more F-22s, but he said “Lockheed has given up” on getting the extra orders.
Also, Murtha touched on the issue of an export version of the F-22 — principally to Japan who says only the F-22 can meet its range and speed requirements for a new interceptor. Murtha said Sen. Daniel Inouye is working with Japan to come up with the cash needed to “de-militarize” the F-22 (to remove the secret gadgets and gizmos from the US version) which he estimates will be around $300 million. Murtha thinks that’s way too optimistic and that gutting the F-22 for export will cost more along the lines of $1 billion.
Murtha said he’s worried about the high cost of maintaining the Raptor as well — that it might be difficult to bring that cost under control and will contribute to major sticker shock among lawmakers (and a White House) who are looking for money to spend elsewhere.
F-35 — Murtha said he was just as worried about the long term costs of the F-35 and the delays in production and technological maturity with that program as he is with the travails of the F-22. He said that even though the JSF is a priority for the Obama administration, his committee may not give them the requested money for 2010. “I’m for the F-35. I’m for buying the F-35. But I’m not necessarily for buying it this year.”
EFV — Murtha was stunned when his staff learned that the EFV had an aluminum underbody that would be warm butter to a mine or IED when ashore. He told the commandant that the EFV program was “on the bubble” and that he’d better get control of it and make good on the billions invested in the program already. Murtha talked to Gates about the EFV as well at his meeting the previous day and revealed that Gates has his critical eye on the program as well. “This has been going on for 25 years, this research, and it’s expensive as hell. You can’t keep spending money on research and then come to us and say you’re just going to cancel the program. That’s just not acceptable.”
VH-71 (Prez Helo) — The bottom line is that Murtha wants to make use of the $3.2 billion already spent on the program to field at least some portion of the fleet that’s already been built or is close to being finished. He said there are nine choppers either built or nearly built that we should field. He also leveled sharp criticism at the Secret Service for loading down the program with unnecessary requirements — “We continue to try to convince the administration on the VH-71. … This was Secret Service who said we need all these things on this airplane. … They said they were going to push it off to the Obama administration and there was so much bad publicity about it, I think they reacted to the publicity.” Murtha said he tried to convince White House officials and Pentagon brass to keep the program and try to see how the Congress could salvage the money already spent. They reportedly told him “okay, okay” then they went ahead and cancelled it.
We’re slicing and dicing more of the roundtable for DT, DoD Buzz and Military.com so stay tuned for more.
– Christian
Wait, $20 billion for 20 more Raptors? Or $1 billion each?
Good catch “really?”…my notes say $20B for some reason, but the recording says $3.2B…guess I confused 20 aircraft with $20B…thanks for making a note of it…
I’ve stopped listening to what this blowheart has to say along time ago. He’s lost all credibility in most people’s eye’s.
Christian,
Way to stand your ground. I am sure Murtha has dealt with worse than you so I wouldn’t worry too much.
I still love the F-22 and the air superiority it brings. I wish we could mate some of the equipment being installed on the F-35 and do away with the plan altogether. But alas, that would just push the price tag of the Raptor up more.
The EFV is and will continue to be a waste of money. There has to be a new technology that will allow this APC to do the things we are requiring it to do. Therefore, this beast should be cancelled because it will never live up to expectactions.
I agree with Murtha on the VH-71. Fit out the 9 baseline helos already ordered. I think we are even looking at “standard” configuration H-60s to supplement these aircraft and allow us to retire all of the older helos currently shuttling the POTUS around.
DC2
Murtha=Jackass
Mark,
He may be a jackass. But understand that they have a very powerful kick. Listen to what he says and hopefully it makes sense. Otherwise look out. Other than the KC-Xv2.0, I don’t have any heartache with what he says.
At least he wants to spend money of defense.
DC2
Like him or not, he is an old Marine with a history and a brain, he is good for this country if you ever get the words from his mouth without someone putting the old twist on them. Semper Fi Murtha, and hang in there and fight for us. BV
F– Murtha.
“Like him or not, he is an old Marine with a history and a brain, he is good for this country if you ever get the words from his mouth without someone putting the old twist on them.“
–Benedict Arnold was a great general, too. As for spin, Murtha’s own words indict him.
Let me say again:
F– Murtha.
Watch your brave old marine here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMedVWUsSFU
Oh, and F– Murtha.
Screw Murtha ! That guy is a worthless pogue who needs to be fired then sued. I served in the Marines and this Murtha idiot, I have ZERO RESPECT for. None.
This does make me wonder. Who thought making the bottum of the EFV aluminum was a good idea?
Oh good its bamboo,
Like they said f’ murtha hes a a$$hole and one of the worst with pork barrel spending.
Murtha is a patriot. He is a much better man than that draft-dodging, Saudi-loving, suck-ass: George W.
(Quote)Murtha is a patriot.
Posted by: jim at June 24, 2009 11:50 PM(Quote) Jim, you are an idiot that needs to change tv channels!
Valcan,
I think they did it to save weight. The current AAV7 is made entirely of aluminum. The old M113 is made of aluminum too.
Don’t make no sense to me though.
DC2
Who ever said Murtha is a good guy must be one of those that he called stupid in his own home state and still got re-elected.…
As the saying goes, “Stupid is, Stupid does”.
Since when does being an old Marine make him a good representitive of the people. As memory serves me, Murtha has been on the take for years Yet because he’s a democrat that’s overlooked.
Murtha is a worthless piece of debris and those people in western PA who vote for him aren’t much better. They’re just stupid. I’m from PA and have some first hand knowledge of what I’m talking about.
Murtha! he needs to go screw himself. Murtha is a worthless pogue who needs his ASS KICKED then VOTED OUT and then SUED by every MARINE that Murtha called a KILLER. I served in the ARMY but grew up around Marines and was impressed by them, But Murtha I have NO RESPECT FOR MURTHA IF HE WAS ON FIRE I WOULD NOT CROSS THE STREET TO HELP PUT OUT THE FIRE, MIGHT SELL TICKETS TO RISE MONEY FOR THE MARINE TOY DRIVE.
Be you a Marine, Sailor, Soldier, Airman, National Guard, or Coast Guard or Reserve
THESE ARE THE MEN AND WOMEN THAT KEEP US FREE, NOT CONGRESS IT IS THE MILITARY.
I SALUTE YOU ALL JOB WELL DONE.….
That comment is empty, does not tell me anything and is nothing but an attack on the person.
Why are his ideas bad? I don’t give a hoot about the guy. I need policy comments… Not “my neighboor is an asshole because he always was” rant.
G
This guy talks out of both sides of his mouth like every other politician no matter the affiliation.
The EFV wasn’t designed to be a convoy defense vehicle and therefore didn’t NEED to have MRAP-like mine protection. Watch Murtha, he speaks with a forked tongue.
Gildas;
Ad hominem, strawman argument, card stacking — most pawns of the American right don’t know much more. Their repertoire is really that limited.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
About Murtha: He should learn what “sunk costs” are. Earlier expenses are irrelevant as argument. You need to ignore the consideration of sunk costs in order to avoid foolish decisions as much as possible.
Gates doesn’t need to justify NOT to spend taxpayer money. He needs to justify expenses only — Murtha got it completely wrong.
EFV: No matter how the project looks right now; it needs to be scrapped. The whole concept is idiotic.
The problem, folks, is that Jack Murtha has no credibility in anything he says since we constantly have to ask, how is this position going to benefit Jack Murtha and the people that contribute money to him and his family?
“Ad hominem, strawman argument, card stacking — most pawns of the American right don’t know much more. Their repertoire is really that limited.“
–Ad Hominem my ass:
http://www.willisms.com/archives/2006/10/the_jack_murtha.html
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=79526
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=40298
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/jack-murtha-d-al-qaeda-we-cant-win
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30925241/
http://censuremurtha.com/
And these are just the tip of the iceberg.
FYI, there are these things called Google and Bing that help you do five seconds of research before accusing others of being automatons. Seems like you protest too much.
Has anyone checked this guys “military” record? I think he was a deskjock in VN, and the rest of his “illustrious career was in the reserves! He’s a sorryass excuse for a so called “miltary retiree!
Take this Russia, you dirty losers
BREAKING NEWS: Kyrgyz spits in Russia’s face
Kyrgyzstan has decided to scale down to non-lethal use, but allowed US military to continue to operate from Manas for logistics of Afghanistan. Russian foreign ministry got p*ssed off criticizing Kyrgyz played a dirty trick. Russia was spit in the face too hard that they have threaten to make a corresponding response. US has welcomed the final revert of Kyrgyz decision on use of Manas air port. Find out more about the fun Russia losing face.
http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Kyrgyzstan_changes_mind_on_US_Afghan_base_999.html
Good Morning Folks,
Other then the EFV most of the issues have been decided, Rep. Murtha is just trying to show that he is relevant, President Obama will veto the whole DoD budget if it doesn’t have what Sec, Gates wants, it real simple.
The EFV should be canceled. The statement that Rep. Murtha was shocked that the under plate of the EFV was aluminum and would “Melt like butter to an IED/(EFR)” makes one wonder what marine Corps he was in. I know it’s unreasonable to expect a Congressman to know about Navel Engineering or even basic metallurgy but his “surprise” is curiously reveling about his ability to realistically assessments, and pass judgement on even the most basic weapon systems.
Congressman Murtha has traded on his exploits and experiences as a Marine Officer (Colonel) as a Congressman, but he has worn out any value of that knowledge. It’s time the House Democrats find a younger, and more knowledgeable of current technology, Veteran military officer to lead this committee.
The dual roles of an amphibious landing vehicle and an Armored Personal Carrier are vastly different. The misguided use by the Marines of the AAV& Amphibious Vehicle in the Anbur was a costly in Marine lives lost in these totally unsuited vehicles.
The amphibious warfare mission of the Marines will continue and the AAV7 is an aging platform and not suited for over the horizon landing operations, it’s just to slow to cover the increased distances at sea. The Marines should build a dedicated amphibious vehicle that I’m sure would cost less then the $10 million per copy price tag of the EFV and buy a dedicated AFV, perhaps an already developed “off the shelf” vehicle, the combined costs of the two should be far less then the EFV.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Thanks for asking him about the boondoggle FCS…
Murtha chairs the Defense Subcommittee of the HAC because he has seniority so he gets his choice of assignment. It works the same way for Reps & for Dems & it’s not going to change.
USMC generals decided that the Corps needs vehicles that can get to the beach on their own rather than by way of an LCAC. Anybody know why?
Good Afternoon Will,
Lets see the generals want the EFV, why. Oh gee Will, let me make a wild guess here, could it be that many of those now retired, and soon to be, U.S.M.C. Generals are now, pr will be, or in the case of the 25 years of the development of the EFV have been employed by BAE/General Dynamics/FMC or the other pre merge companies and make a factor of 2X or 3X or more then what they were paid on active duty.
As fort Rep. Murtha, as you say the Democrats are still on the seniority system, maybe it’s time to change.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Ad Hominen it is…
BdWilcox, of the links provided, only MSNBC tries to neutral and stick to the facts. The others are just too busy being partisan to give meaningfull info.
All in all, we still are learning about a man, politician, who not as discreet about his slease as others are.
Does that teach me anything about his current proposals? No. Nothing. Bullshit info.
Thanks Will and Byron for the insight.
(PS the best warfighters I ever saw, or heard about, where also near criminals in all aspect themselves…)
“Ad Hominen it is…
BdWilcox, of the links provided, only MSNBC tries to neutral and stick to the facts. The others are just too busy being partisan to give meaningfull info.“
–I see. To you “Ad Hominem” = “Facts you don’t agree with.” Your response sounds rather ad hominem itself. Once again, thou doth protest too much.
Gildas asked: “Ex marine chaps, please explain why his ideas are bad, not why you don’t like his shirt. I want and need to know why some ex military don’t like his IDEAS and PROGRAM.“
#1 — You are wrong. The great majority of former Marines know that Murtha is a damn fine congressman who has the best interests of the military and country at heart.
#2 — The majority of the people here throwing insults at Murtha are not former or current Marines or former or current members of any military service. They are feather merchants, sand crabs, and dittoheads that parrot the words of Limbaugh and LGF.
#3 — The reasons Limbaugh and the whackos try to put him down are primarily:
a] Back in 2005 he submitted a resolution in Congress calling for the redeployment of U.S. troops from Iraq and that we establish an “over-the-horizon” presence in countries nearby to Iraq.
b] Also in 2005 at a press conference, he brought up the Haditha incident previously reported in the press. Even though his statements were based on a report prepared by the military, he was lambasted — perhaps rightfully so or perhaps not — for mentioning it before the individuals had their day in court.
c] In 2006, Murtha was incorrectly quoted as saying that the U.S. was a greater threat to world peace than North Korea or Iran. He never said that. O’Reilly apologized to Murtha for repeating the untruth, but Drudge, Limbaugh, Tucker Carlson, and Newt Gingrich did not.
#4 — BTW, there are no ex-Marine-chaps, there are Marines and former-Marines.
I really don’t have much respect for Murtha. I really dislike Spector too. They are there too long, and need to GO. Sell the F-22 to the Japanese. Why not? It would keep the line running and give an ally a great capability. We WILL need capable allies in Asia one day soon. Same with Australia. The Chi-coms are ramping up, and the Russians will ALWAYS behave like Soviets. Not to mention NK and Iran. As for the EFV, did not know the bottom was ALUMINUM. Its also flat. I don’t think I would want to be in one of those in an urban environment. There’s gotta be a better way.
Murtha, He has proven that he talks out of both sides of his mouth and his party the same. They are in charge now so whatever happens is the Dems fault. Murtha has got to go.
Both the F-22 and JSF are obsolete. The F-117 has been retired and for good reason. The B-2 is now obsolete and will be retired soon as well. We need additional nodal connectivity and a larger stick. Not JSF or F-22 they are now worthless and everyone knows this as a fact. Both of these platforms have went via the way of the Dinosaur. Stop Spending Billions of Dollars on obsolete platforms!!!!!!
BD
USAF, Ret.