Ok…so let me get this straight.
Leon Panetta cancelled a secret CIA program to kill or capture Al Qaeda operatives at close range — meaning using hit teams to do the dirty work instead of Predator drones. The Bush administration makes a presidential finding calling for the assassination or capture of AQ operatives known to Congress, but then conceals the program (which never really got off the ground) from regular briefings since then.
A secret intelligence program canceled by CIA Director Leon Panetta in June was meant to find and then capture or kill al-Qaida leaders at close range rather than target them with air strikes that risked civilian casualties, government officials with knowledge of the operation said Monday.
And why are we all freaked out about this? Doesn’t this seem logical in the extreme?
In fact, didn’t we execute a couple of those missions of the capture variety with Ramzi Binalshibh and KSM in Pakistan? Sounds like it worked just fine to me.
Panetta canceled the effort on June 23 after learning of its existence, its failure to yield results, and the fact that Congress had been unaware of the program since its inception in 2001, according to one official with direct knowledge of the plan.
That official said former President George W. Bush authorized killing al-Qaida leaders shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, and that Congress was made aware of that. However, the official said, Panetta also told members of Congress that according to notes that he had been given on the early months of the program, then-Vice President Dick Cheney directed the CIA not to inform Congress of the specifics of the secret program.
A.) Tell me how firing hellfires from Predators is more ethical or legal than sending a team to kill or capture a single person.
B.) Doesn’t this sort of smack of Sandi Berger-esque national security policy? We know from the 9–11 commission report that Berger got cold feet when he had bin Laden in his sights for a proxy raid in Afghanistan because he was afraid of collateral damage and blowback. Now some of the same national security policy minds are back in the driver’s seat so we cancel a program to kill bad guys using CIA assets. Great idea folks.
His private revelation ignited a storm of protests from Democratic members of the House Intelligence Committee, who accused the CIA of lying to Congress. Some are calling for a congressional investigation.
Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, suggested that the Bush administration broke the law by concealing a CIA counterterrorism program from Congress. Feinstein said the Bush administration’s failure to notify Congress about the 8-year-old counterterrorism program “is a big problem, because the law is very clear.”
According to Feinstein, Panetta told Congress late last month that “he had just learned about the program, described it to us, indicated that he had canceled it and … did tell us that he was told that the vice president had ordered that the program not be briefed to the Congress.”
“We were kept in the dark. That’s something that should never, ever happen again,” said Feinstein.
Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, said he agreed with Feinstein that the CIA should keep Congress informed. But Cornyn said the new assertion “looks to me suspiciously like an attempt to provide political cover” to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and other Democrats. Pelosi has accused the CIA of lying to her in 2002 about its use of waterboarding, or simulated drowning, which many people, including Obama, consider torture.
Once again it’s politics, my friends. And Republicans have to be salivating over this one as news trickles out of a justice department probe into interrogation methods. That’s all this administration needs as it tries to convince us we need Canada-style health care — a debate over whether we should be sending spooks to kill or capture Al Qaeda operatives and squeeze information from them (without a lawyer) when we nab one.
– Christian
{ 86 comments… read them below or add one }
You’re glossing over a key point. The program was canceled because of “its failure to yield results”.
The fact that Panetta recently filled a position, or along this thread of thought, was not informed sooner, having already cancelled the operation for a lack in production seems like a poor leadership practice. The situation was in fact finished at the point where He cancelled it. The filing cabinet was practically empty with information relative to any intelligence to execute an operation. The bottomline is that the situation could have been handled inhouse not making the same mistake of not informing Congress the next time.
The business of intelligence is not a simple task, especially at this level. Decisions must be made for the benefit of the Nation, and they do not come by easily.
Anyway, now that the cat is out of the bag, I believe the subject should be dropped in the hopes of unity and getting the job done. All the time we spend knocking each other down to our enemies amusement should cease.
I am an Obama supporter, but if THIS is the big hoopla and controversy then I have a REAL issue with this.
Panetta and anyone in the admin including the President who support this are out of their minds. What as you said Christian is the difference between an operator executing the kill or a Predator??
If anything, it will strike more fear in the hearts of AQ to do it with an operator. In addition it responds to the propaganda that AQ puts out that we are fearful of the close in fights/engagements.
The point isn’t whether the program was obvious or effective, the point is that the CIA was illegally concealing it from Congress. Generally NOT a good precedent in a democracy.
All nations have secrets and should.
Especially a nation with “leaders” who play politics with everything simply for their own personal gain.
I concur, this administration is ostensibly returning to Clinton administration national security policies. It’s an erroneous relapse that will only culminated in another 9/11. I know this war won’t be over if we knock off OBL and I know we need to adopt a more population centric approach to the war. However, that doesn’t mean you negate a policy that would render Al Qaeda leaderless. Moreover, a ground incursion is a much more reliable way to bag an HVT than a Predator strike. Look at how many times we’ve sent Predators to assassinate Baitullah Mehsud to no avail. Plus, David Kilcullen advised to curtail the Predator strikes because of the collateral damage they entail.
@Ryan,
… but the outrage/publicizing stems from not telling Congress.
To not know the source (which has always been a “pickle.”) puts one in a position to not be able to process the veracity, timing, etc of such a report.
Lets just say that anyone who thinks we shouldnt have voraciously, heart pumping, garrotte that sob if we had a team in place to do so……IS NUTS. That SOB masterminded (with his girlfriend) the 911 event and funded it. Its no secret, so why would anyone think we WERENT trying to kill his UBL? Why do people think we had troopers in Tora Bora, or, crossing into Pakistan. < thats common knowledge.
What I find insulting is the “indignancy.” Pelosi knew, period. What was she gonna do before the elections? Take that public? LOL!!
Smoke n Mirrors Folks…
The only true statement is that the teams even remotely close, were ordered to stand down, period
… There were very nearly some ugly events between those that wanted to ignore the order and the ones that wouldnt provide some critical gear.
Yeah, there were fights between groups (do vs. don’t…) What is the big surprise?
Yeah, just to reiterate, what part of “not working” and “lying to Congress” was confusing?
To not know the source (which has always been a “pickle.”) puts one in a position to not be able to process the veracity, timing, etc of such a report.
Lets just say that anyone who thinks we shouldnt have voraciously, heart pumping, garrotte that sob if we had a team in place to do so……IS NUTS. That SOB masterminded (with his girlfriend) the 911 event and funded it. Its no secret, so why would anyone think we WERENT trying to kill his UBL? Why do people think we had troopers in Tora Bora, or, crossing into Pakistan. < thats common knowledge.
What I find insulting is the “indignancy.” Pelosi knew, period. What was she gonna do before the elections? Take that public? LOL!!
Smoke n Mirrors Folks…
The only true statement is that the teams even remotely close, were ordered to stand down, period
… There were very nearly some ugly events between those that wanted to ignore the order and the ones that wouldnt provide some critical gear.
Yeah, there were fights between groups (do vs. don’t…) What is the big surprise?
Oxford, it’s a damning juxtaposition on both politicians. They both sanctimoniously accused the Bush administration of neglecting Afghanistan by invading Iraq. While in office, both Pelosi and Obama have shown a blatant disregard to the conflict by taking halfhearted attempts to stabilize the region and have conveyed utter disdain for the CIA. This isn’t an ambiguous proxy political article, it’s a critique on their National Security policies.
@Total Why tell Congress about a secret program when they’re only going reveal it. Case in point, Senator Feinstein revealing the location of a CIA drone base in Pakistan (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/4616490/US-drones-based-in-Pakistan-Senator-Dianne-Feinstein-reveals-in-apparent-gaffe.html)
I think the SOB is dead, we have not seen any videos of him in a very long time. We’ve heard “vocal recordings of OBL”, voice recordings are not infallible.
OBL, is/was too arrogant not to show his camel mug in a picture or a video!
Yeah, just to reiterate, what part of “not working” and “lying to Congress” was confusing?
Posted by: Total at July 13, 2009 04:28 PM
Our government lies to us on a regular basis what makes them special?
Anyways sounds like dick chenney know congress leaked like a………..ok i cant say that one…hmmmm….joe bidens mouth. So he made sure they didnt know. While i dont like this this isnt something for they people with BDS to grasp as some plot to take over america.
All in all…mehh who cares can you honestly tell me Obama and the other people in our government would NEVER do something like this?
Yes, the program was concealed from Congress. A good idea, both the program and the concealment. As soon as it was revealed to them, it was leaked to cover the Speaker of the House’s ass.
Now the interesting thing will be to see how the CIA reacts to the Democrat’s attempts to play politics with the program and cover Pelosi’s problems (while distracting the public from larger economic interests) at the CIA’s expense.
The CIA had no trouble leaking information against Bush when the politics got rough over Iraq War intelligence. Made some people think the CIA was on the Democrat’s side. Perish the thought; the CIA is on the CIA’s side.
Surely the Democrats know they’re as vulnerable over what’s happened for the past 8 years as the Republicans ever were. This is a dangerous game for the politicians.
Too bad it never happened, although I had heard that we where so close that Osama’s crap was still steaming in the Afghanistan Tora Bora mountains early morning cold. what a trophy shot that would have been.
This story is developing piece meal, which makes me hesitant to draw any conclusions just yet. I
As far as I understand it your (Christian) two points amount to strawman arguments.
The discussion isn’t about the lethality of assassinations – the U.S. is apparently on the same civilization stage as Israel and Russia in its readiness to assassinate abroad without trial.
The discussion (that I see) is rather about the misbehaviour of the CIA in regard to its duty to inform the legislative.
The CIA did not inform congress, because they did not want them to leak this information to the public, mainly for the safety of the operatives.
That is the same reason Panetta wasn’t told.
Panetta was told and then Congress and the next freaking day it was leaked to the press. Hmmmmm can anyone say self fulfilling prophecy.
Just listened to this audio on NPR.
“Secret CIA Program Remains Undisclosed”
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106533850
Looks like the CIA didn’t tell Congress becuase of the fear that the program would get out to the public.
I really don’t give a shit what the outcome of this is so long as the CIA can keep doing its mission. It’s BS like this that helped prevent the CIA from doing it’s job properly in the 90s. Congress makes me sick, they are a disgrace to this country and most of them, if civilians, could be convicted of treason.
One would assume, that as Chief of Staff of President Ford, Cheney would have been familiar with EO 11905, I also was not aware of EO 12333 being revoked.
So there’s that
The discussion isn’t about the lethality of assassinations – the U.S. is apparently on the same civilization stage as Israel and Russia in its readiness to assassinate abroad without trial.
So sven what nations wont assassinate people?…realy if you believe yours or other nations dont your living in a make believe world.
Plus realy….a trial for Osama….thats like having the guy say yes i killed them and give you a video tape then when you have the shot go oh well its wrong because he hasent sat in a court room while we all state THE MOST OBVIOUS THING IN THE WORLD.
Its live saying that we shouldnt call water water because we cant be 10,00% sure its water…….its water hes a massed murderer deal with it.
“he CIA did not inform congress, because they did not want them to leak this information to the public, mainly for the safety of the operatives.”
Always good to know that it’s okay to break the law as long as you think you have a good reason. I’ll remember that the next time I want a new car.
Ok so the score on the left is this: Send Predators we are cowards; Send brave men to go face to face with the enemy we are evil assassins. Got that about right.
Guys, the problem isn’t the program, but refusing to keep Congress informed!
Granted, you don’t want to tell the *whole* Congress…
That’s why there’s a Security committee!
You brief them in secret, and if they leak *that* information, they go to jail…
On the other hand, the primary reason for not telling the people with the Security Clearance is not to prevent leaks, it’s to prevent Congress from exercising oversight, because they might tell you to stop!
And, since that’s the exact reason WHY Congress is given oversight over the CIA, refusing to keep Congress informed is illegal…
and, thus, whoever made that decision should, at the least, go to Jail, if not hang for treason!
So out of curiosity: why do we bother with a Constitution and laws? Why don’t we just install Dick Cheney as Dictator? Wouldn’t that keep us “safer”? That’s what we want, right? To be “safer” at any cost? All these pesky laws, lawmakers, judges, voters, etc. just get in the way. Let’s go straight to the heart and install a Dictator – much more efficient.
Cranky
IIRC the US actually advertised a $5 million reward for bin Laden’s head, so somehow I really doubt that the program the CIA “forgot” to mention to its legal oversight committee was simply one to locate and kill key Al-Qaeda figures. Even if that is part of it, there is something else.
So you choose to believe these unnamed officials about the purpose of the program & then turn around & disbelieve them about the lack of results. Instead, you credit the program for captures that no one but you is saying was the product of the program. All for the purpose of criticizing totally unrelated domestic spending that hasn’t even started yet. That’s why the new media is so much better than mainstream media. You don’t have to waste your time with petty details like logic.
Ok, this is for every one who believes congress will some how uproot their fat A$$’s from their cushy chairs on the hill to pick up a gun and go pull a patrol in some far away land with the rest of us in the military…. Last I checked they haven’t done it and probably never will. So what congress was kept in the dark… boohoo for them. All they will do is whine, bitch, moan, and complain about not being told something. There are far more important issues to be dealt with then this. Someone finally had the stones to be proactive about dealing with our world terror issues and all you little babies want to do is worry about not knowing about it. Do you worry about not knowing the name of the latest WIA or KIA… or his/ her families names? I say reinstate the program and get something done for a change!
Guys, I hate to burst your bubbles but this story was first “leaked” and investigated in 2005. Now maybe the particulars weren’t released to released to Congress, such as who may be where and attempting to snatch whom. But the fact we were doing this was public knowledge. I agree with Senator Cornyn, because of the timing and people involved this stinks of providing House Speaker Polseit political cover for her statements that the CIA habitually lies to Congress. If you stop and look at her statements it would appear that either the speaker is, herself, a liar or she is suffering from a dissocitive disorder. In either case, should she still be serving in Congress? And if this isn’t political cover, with the CIA’s history of leaking over the past eight years, how can we believe that something of this magnitude has been keep secret? Let’s face it folks, if Bush started or even wanted to start something that anyone in the CIA objected to, within two weeks it would appear in the NY Times. Get off the horse that says the Democrats are always right and good and the Republicans are mean-spirited and evil! Look around. Wasn’t Obama the candidate that claimed that no one earning less than $250,000 would not see any increase in their taxes. And who’s party is it that just passed the largest tax increase in 4 decades in the House of Representitives? If you guessed that it was his party, congratulations! So just who is that lies? What party seems to spend most of its time either doing so or covering up afterwards?
You people make me ashamed.
Good Evening Folks,
All good arguments, but also all in the conventional box. It is assumed that we have to either capture or kill bin Laden. As I see it, neither of these options would be beneficial to the United States.
If killed bin Laden would go to the top of the martyr’s list for over a billion Muslims. He would inspire a renewal of al Qaeda and inspire generations of Jihadist to attack the west.
If we bagged him what would we do with him? Put him or trial of course, where, wouldn’t make any difference, he would still have a world wide soap box 24/7 for years to present his arguments and to spread his anti western venom. This would no doubt act as inspiration to millions in the Islamic world and would as in killing him create more Jihadist Warriors.
There is none other option, which I’m sure our best and brightest of our Military and State Department never considered, and that is to contain him, much as we are doing now. We have the technology, and are using it to track bin Laden and to pick off his associates without hurting him.
His life in North Western Pakistan is not all that good, running from cave to safe house to cave several times a day, seeing the men around you picked off by Predators. Any day to day operational control bin Laden has or a role in strategic planning by bin Laden over, if bin Laden thinks differently he is purely delusional.
The worst this could do is see bin Laden die in the hills, death unreported for as long as possible, while his underlings engage in a power struggle and kill each other.
Al Qaeda is already a much reduced combat organization then in was on 9/10/01, they have had their Pearl Harbor, all that I could see in dragging bin Laden out of the hill of Afghanistan/Pakistan either dead or alive, would be helping Al Qaeda regroup and reorganize.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Well honestly, I agree what to do with Bin Laden… It would almost be a repeat of the nazi trials except as you say a hellava lot longer for a crappy out come. I say we just start burrying the people that really really rub us raw… Iran is Iran i think in due time we can actually work that problem out… North Korea… 1 Black Op team(take your pick form the many) and that problem is solved. Do that a few times and the “I carry a big F&*KING stick and I will use it on you” will once again ring true. Yes this will piss some people off our own countrymen and some of the people in the world. But that is a small price to pay for freedom and security. I may sound barbaric but if it works….
“Last I checked they haven’t done it and probably never will”
Hey, moron, you want to go say that to Senator Dan Inouye, (D-HI), who won the Medal of Honor for charging a German pillbox in Italy with his left arm shot off?
To: Total,
I stand corrected. Yes some have served and thank god they did. You probably know the math better than I do. How many of the sitting members right now have served? Has Pelosi or however you spell her name? Either way the people who are making the most waves about this entire CIA hit squad probably have no clue what it is like or for. Other than their once in a while lock down visits to Iraq or Afghanistan.
So…..
The hyperventilating (faux and real) Leftists in Congress get their panties in a bunch because the Christians In Action ‘failed’ to report there was STILL nothing going on after they ceased operating to give the Pelosi woman cover.
AND
The hyperventilating (faux and real) Leftists in the trenches get to come here to defend their leadership’s flaccid caviling over what is esssentially…. nothing.
Gawd I hate political posts.
What I want is an investigation as to why they gave up going after the heavies/ I don’t care if it is hard, they only have to get lucky once or twice. Bunch of freakin’ quitters at the top – I’m sure the field guys, the ‘rough men’, were willing.
The story was released as a smoke screen for another activity. I figured it was common knowledge that CAG and the CIA were in the AQ hunting business with no bad limit or happy hunting grounds.
This story is not what the original was about. I think this is cover for CIA and DoD intelligence collection/surveilance within CONUS. Like they track individuals in other countries to the states then conduct close target recons without involving the FBI. THEN if things turn up, they hand off to the FBI for evidence collection. If no, then they still continue intel collection for future use, not evidence.
The Bin Laden thing is a cover story. Look back to the ops which were run in the 80′s. Cover piled on top of cover. ISA and Delta aka Caymen Jaw. Seaspray and TF-160. Deja Vous all over again.
@Cranky Observer
Hey I’d be in favor of installing Cheney as Dictator, better than this busload of losers we have right now. Obama, Pelosi, Reid, I’ve never seen such a lousy bunch looting so much… not a shred of decency among any of them.
Per Oxford: “However, I have to say that increasingly this site is becoming more political and anti-Democrat as a reflexive thing. I understand that Christian would want to advance his theory that this program was cancelled to offer political cover. What I don’t understand is how “Canadian-style health care” factors into the plan. Do we want DefenseTech.org to become a debating ground over healthcare policy? This site should be about defense policy, defense intel, and fancy new things that go boom.”
The most important defense policy metrics is budget. When we hear the F-22, GMD etc. are all unaffordable (basically all things that make America completely dominant), and in the same breath invest untold billions in heavily ideological kind of social engineering (note: people mostly support MDA, and are mostly happy with their health insurance situation), it is obvious you can not separate the two.
“he CIA did not inform congress, because they did not want them to leak this information to the public, mainly for the safety of the operatives.”
Always good to know that it’s okay to break the law as long as you think you have a good reason. I’ll remember that the next time I want a new car.
Posted by: Total at July 13, 2009 08:23 PM
what?
Anyways, considering the constitution and most of our laws are regularly broken by congress (realy just sence last november its astounding) dont see what the big idea is if the CIA does it while they try to do there job.
See this is what happens when people decide the laws are corrupt and theres no sence in following them.
@Valcan:
“So sven what nations wont assassinate people?…realy if you believe yours or other nations dont your living in a make believe world.”
Name me a single scandal, story or hint that Germany did it post-1945.
Wolfgang Grams
Bad Kleinen
1993
“Why are we all freaked out about this”
Haven’t you read the story?
a) because the program was a failure
b) because in at least one case it apparently killed the wrong person
c) because legal oversight was deliberately evaded
d) because it risked causing major problems with friendly governments
Go ahead and piss off the CIA. Then we’ll see how long the President’s Birth Certificate stays hidden.
Go ahead and p#ss off the CIA. Then we’ll see how long the President’s Birth Certificate stays hidden.
The former head of this division has already stated publicly that the CIA never concealed this program from Congress. Period.
“Yes some have served and thank god they did. You probably know the math better than I do. How many of the sitting members right now have served? ”
26 out of 100 Senators have served, and 135 out of 435 Representatives. That’s much higher than the regular population. Do some research before you shoot off your mouth.
“The former head of this division has already stated publicly that the CIA never concealed this program from Congress. Period.”
Oh, yeah, that’s conclusive.
The SAD’s ops are covert-that means SECRET. Does anyone trust those snakes in suits to keep a secret CIA should be left alone to do thier job. No wonder morale is low. We will pay for this someday sooner or later.
I would have thought most of us were smarter than that. The program wasn’t canceled cause it was super secret advanced ‘hit squad’ to ‘get the terrorists.’ That has been the publicly stated reason or goal of 99% of all US covert ops, since 2001. (For Christ’s sake they blatantly destroyed water-boarding videos of people they claimed they had a Legal right to torture.)
The program was canceled because of how it went about achieving those goals: e.g. like putting ALL international US companies under surveillance, kidnapping in order to extract dubious intelligence, hiring organized crime to traffic heroin, cocaine and pot to fund operations not covered by congressional budgets, assassination of ‘working partners’, targeting innocent family members of individuals who’s names sounded similar to persons of interest, targeting of US citizens directly or indirectly related to ‘intelligence’ gathered from tortured individuals, recruiting individuals for the formation of ‘Al Qaeda’ terrorist cells in order to bust them to claim success, targeting US citizens for economic attacks, pharma-terrorism against those attempting to expose illegal operations, blacklisting…it’s not like they went after white Christians, real Americans, or did they?
The real point being that these ‘special projects’ have been a complete failure, produced few positive results and encouraged the CIA to drift further into a unregulated, self sustaining crime syndicate(with good intentions of course.)
From the NYtimes:
C.I.A. Had Plan to Assassinate Qaeda Leadershttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/14/us/14intel.html?_r=1&hp
“Officials at the spy agency over the years ran into myriad logistical, legal and diplomatic obstacles. How could the role of the United States be masked? Should allies be informed and might they block the access of the C.I.A. teams to their targets? What if American officers or their foreign surrogates were caught in the midst of an operation? Would such activities violate international law or American restrictions on assassinations overseas?
Yet year after year, according to officials briefed on the program, the plans were never completely shelved because the Bush administration sought an alternative to killing terror suspects with missiles fired from drone aircraft or seizing them overseas and imprisoning them in secret C.I.A. jails.
The program was designed in the frantic weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks when President George W. Bush signed a secret order authorizing the C.I.A. to capture or kill operatives of Al Qaeda around the world. To be able to kill Osama bin Laden or his top deputies wherever they might be
This is the Wizard of Oz’s way of re-directing everyone’s attention away from the aberrant economical activities of this Totalitian Liberal Cabal (TLC) Administration. If they cannot accomplish overwhelming our senses with their political palaver and nonsensical economic projections, they have to through mud on somebody.
This administration is the worst group of unprofessional, ethically deprived, third rate amateurs I have ever witnessed in office since Jimmy Carter
“This administration is the worst group of unprofessional, ethically deprived, third rate amateurs I have ever witnessed in office”
You’ve been asleep for awhile, Mr. Van Winkle. Take some time to get your bearings.
Musan
Hmmm! The President’s Birth Certificate is missing, oh my! What should we do, if it is missing then we have no real proof the “Wizard of Oz” was born in the United States? Do you think Mr. & Mrs. Liberal/Progressive Congressman should investigate this potential breach of the Constitution or do these rules only apply to everybody else but them. Stories and tells and lies Oh My!
Dear Total,
It is you who are asleep at the keyboard. There is maybe one worst administration worst than Jimmy Carter’s and that is FDR’s fiasco. That administration is the original Totalitarian Cabal (TLC) placing Japanese American citizens who lived in California to be placed into internment camps causing them to loose their property, individual rights, and freedom. And do you know who the Governor was at the time the man who went on be become Chief Justice of the Supreme Court
Tell Congress? Those yardbirds can’t keep a secret!! The current speaker and most of those mule brains would call there buddies at the news outlets and pass on the info. Killing our enemies is what war is about. Sniper or bomb send them to Ali and all those virgins!!!CSM Ruley
If House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Leon Panetta, Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif. and others think so highly of Bin Laden and Al-Qaida. I think they should consider changing your address and party affiliation. Instead of D-( what ever state) or R- (what ever state ) Make it from another country or start serving the people of this country.
“It is you who are asleep at the keyboard”
Mr. Van Winkle–
You might want to take a nap, again. Getting more sleep should help with the foaming at the mouth problem.
All this shows is how the Obama administration continues to clean up the ineptitude of the previous administration.
In 7 years of a presidency, during a time of war, they still couldn’t execute a program! And that’s WITHOUT Congressional oversight or approval! Nice one George.
Funny how republicans criticized Pelosi, funny how the republicans criticized regulating the financial industry, funny how the republicans criticized Clinton about an affair…talk about cleanup after an 8 year republican cabal.
I agree, that this post was originally too political. And now you let the dogs out. Try to keep your political views under wraps, they don’t mix well with my military tech news.
They had to cancel the program because they were going to put the AQ captives in Biden’s secret bunker. Since he released it’s location, they had to cancel it.
Also, this is where Biden gave the green light for Israel to attack Iran, but Obama nixed that too…
This administration is the biggest joke in American history….
Total,
I read the article, where did it say the wrong person was killed? What article are you reading, the Daily Kos, or The Huffington Post?
In fact, the article I read yesterday on Military.com quoted Pinetta (Pin Headda)as saying that he saw nothing illegal about the program.
what secrecy remember WANTED DEAD or Alive. Isn’t it better to kill the enemy leaders than risk thousands of our kids
HEY WEMBLEY,
http://www.military.com/news/article/cia-program-targeted-alqaida-leaders.html
Panetta (Pin Headda)told the committees there was no indication that there was anything illegal or inappropriate about the effort itself, the official said.
I read the stories. All of them. There is no mention of the “wrong person” being killed. In fact every story says the program never got off the ground. Can you provide a link to back up your assertions, or do you only have that tin foil hat?
“I read the article, where did it say the wrong person was killed? What article are you reading, the Daily Kos, or The Huffington Post?”
I didn’t say that, so I don’t know what you’re talking about.
“In fact, the article I read yesterday on Military.com quoted Pinetta (Pin Headda)as saying that he saw nothing illegal about the program.”
Miss the point much? The point is not whether the program was illegal but whether the CIA illegally did not report it to Congress.
“For you liberal automatons”
Hey, for you neocon pinheads, all the drone strikes have been properly reported to Congress. Thus the difference between adhering to the law and breaking it.
But it’s okay to break the law if you really really don’t want to obey it, right?
Hey Total,
You are right, I quoted you when I should have quoted WEMBLEY, my bad.
You still fail reading comp, you Obamaton. Go read the story (for the first time or try again).
Gal writer summed it up nicely;
A 1976 order signed by Pres. Ford banned the CIA from carrying out assassinations (avidly pursued by the late Atty Gen Bobby Kennedy in 1961-62-”Operation Mongoose”-a major effort to kill Castro). But that prohibition does not apply to killing enemies in war. I knew a former CIA-Green Beret officer who was part of Operation Phoenix which operated in S Vietnam to capture or kill VC village chiefs in the late 60s. The logistics were far simpler than what the military is dealing with in Pakistan, esp in the Waziristan area. Again, the army honchos were at fault for always requiring elaborate plans and large backup forces for even small scale operations. Go to Borders Books and in the military history section are books written by CIA operators re: Operation Anaconda and the frustrating hunt for Bin Laden and his skyjacking savages.
Dear Total;
Oh come on now, how about doing better than that, there is no doubt in my mind you are a lost cause screaming Liberal/Progressive trying to be an intellectual.
Get a life, you do not know what you talking about when you have to resond in that manner, your are in over your head with these issues. You should give us all a break and take the nap, you might find out after a while you perceptions of the world are way out in left field the TLC team now down in DC.
Parts of the National Security Act of 1947 leave room for interpretation. Furthermore Congress is partyly to blame for what transpried for they practically disavowed themselves of their oversight role after 9/11. This has never been acknowledged by the Congressional branch…most likely becuase they would have to shoulder some of the same blame they are laying at the executive and the CIA’s feet.
Something to keep in mind is that both parties hung the CIA out to dry(hurting morale) when it suited them.
No, the article doesn’t say that Congress was notified of the program. It says that Congress was notified that the U.S. was going to go after Bin Laden. It was *not* informed of the specific program, as required by law.
Try again.
If we have so much high-tech gear, like Predator drones that can kill jagoffs like OBL from dozens of miles away, why is Osama still breathing? Suppose it’s like WWII and the British special forces with Adolf Hitler where we don’t think we should take him out because he will destroy al-Qaida from within faster than we ever could? That’s gotta be it, and they don’t want us to know that because of the contraversy, plus prefer to think that we think their just too d@mn incompetent.
Oh, and Total… never posting a link to material support for your opinions is a sure sign of your opinions having no factual base. Keep up the good work you rumor monger. You are making San-Fran-Gran-Nan proud. You just can’t tell because her face is permanently contorted in that “What did I just sit on?” position. But morons like you make her smile, on the inside, where it counts.
Translated Gutsball:
Gutsball: [Calls IRS]: I made money last year.
IRS: Uh…okay.
Gutsball: [hangs up, doesn't file a tax return]
IRS: [later] Uh, you need to file a tax return with specifics or you’ll be prosecuted.
Gutsball: But I told you I made some money last year!
“Yep, this is just like that IRS story. Except I can point to tax law that requires me to show specifics, what law requires the specifics of this program to be constantly briefed to congress”
Good Lord, man, you’re not familiar with the National Security Act of 1947? And here I thought you had some small idea of what you were talking about, misguided as it was.
“You are very deep. Keep amusing us with your insight”
You’re funny, too. The difference is that, with me, the humor is intentional.
Total,
Stop pretending to be Hunter S Thompson, and make a point any time.
National Security Act of 1947? What about it? What about Executive Order 12333?? What about the Constitution of the United States?!? You see, I can go on like this all day, but it really does not prove anything. You need to be more specific, not just snarky and trite.
Are you capable of making a point Total? Or is one or two sentences the most you can come up with?
And you are not funny. I did not say you were funny. I said your “insight” was amusing.
We are not laughing with you, we are laughing at you.
I think that was the phrase you were looking for, but like I said, you are trite.
Someone has done an excellent job of psyop here, diverting attention to the “it was a program to assassinate bin Lade” meme. If so that could only have been a very minor part of the overall puzzle, because (1) it has been public knowledge since about 12 noon on 9/11 that we have a program to assassinate bin Laden (2) no one in the US would object to any such program, whether he be “lib” congresswomen or radical right superpatriot.
Even setting aside the direct illegality of failing to notify the Congressional Gang of 6, there must have been some other components or goals to this program that made is so instantly objectionable to anyone except Cheney. But the psyops are getting close to diverting any possible attention to that little point.
By the way, does Liz Cheney hold a security clearance? If so, on what need to know? If not, how exactly does she manage to speak so confidently on the teevee about this? Just asking.
Cranky
Someone has done an excellent job of psyop here, diverting attention to the “it was a program to assassinate bin Lade” meme. If so that could only have been a very minor part of the overall puzzle, because (1) it has been public knowledge since about 12 noon on 9/11 that we have a program to assassinate bin Laden (2) no one in the US would object to any such program, whether he be “lib” congresswomen or radical right superpatriot.
Even setting aside the direct illegality of failing to notify the Congressional Gang of 6, there must have been some other components or goals to this program that made is so instantly objectionable to anyone except Cheney. But the psyops are getting close to diverting any possible attention to that little point.
By the way, does Liz Cheney hold a security clearance? If so, on what need to know? If not, how exactly does she manage to speak so confidently on the teevee about this? Just asking.
Cranky
I don’t buy it. Dick Cheney and the CIA don’t hide a plain vanilla program to assassinate bin Laden, which was expressly authorized by Congress in the AUMF in 2001, in what appears to be knowing defiance of intelligence overslight laws.
Maybe, the program violated an express prohibition (like using Peace Corps or news reporter covers for CIA agents). Maybe, the program allows the intentional and not strictly necessary sacrifice of innocent civilians to get the kill, or authorized CIA agents to participate in terrorist acts to get close to the center. Hell if I know. It may never be declassified in my lifetime. But, I simply do not buy the propoosition that all there was to this program was authorization for the CIA to kill bin Laden.
Cranky,
I think she talks liek that because daddy tells her she can… and I don’t really think any one is goign to tell Mr. Chenney he is wrong and get away with it all to well. The guy knows where all the skeletons are… including in the closet and under the house!
As for the CIA not telling congress about its little program. Who here thinks they would have let it go on anyways? I mean honestly, every one is so worried about what other people(countries) and making sure they get their own first that National Security isn’t always the the first thing on the list.
And for the person who decided to equate my first post to a Spartan govt… It is clear you didn’t understand what I was saying. The main point is the people who run this country or most of them have no idea what it is like to have your actions and abilities limited because most of your law makers are spinelsss and have never served in the military to see what it takes to win a war.
Folks, this issue ISN’T about whether you like bin Laden, or whether you trust the average Congressman to keep a secret…
It’s about whether the CIA should obey the law of the land, or whether we should “give up a little freedom, in exchange for a little Security”!
Most of you know what Ben Franklin had to say about that trade, right?
Oh, right, Ben was one of those “Godless Commie Liberal Radicals” that we need to defend the country from… {Le Sigh!}
Which Germany? Eastern half of the current Germany or Western half of the current Germany?
I must say, I’m extremely disappointed in T(ool)otal’s inability to get this thread to a hundred comments, considering the effort he/she/it/they put into it.
Oh.
Nevermind.
Good job T(ool)otal!
Really? That was it? Honestly, isn’t most of the American public in favor of this, across the whole spectrum? Because you’re right, it IS a lot more ethical than Hellfire strikes!!
Whoops, everything I have to say is covered by the first 2 posts in the thread
I find the number of people on this board who keep coming up with excuses for breaking the law.
The cia is required to notify democrats and republicans on the intel committees of the house and senate of any program and any future program. Every member of the military, the cia, the congress, the bush administration, and I would guess quite a few commenter on this board took an oath to uphold the constitution and the laws enacted thereunder.
Why this should be in any way controversial is beyond me. But the fascist element in our country continues to rear its ugly head. Yes, we get it, herr Cheney needed to violate the law for the good of fatherland in the name of national security.
those who would trade freedom for security will get neither.
And why anyone would suggest we should trust cheney, one of the most blatantly dishonest people this country has ever seen, scares me to no end. I fear for my beloved constitution.
We are confused! We are not politicians and we do not participate in this open action. We should leave the politicians to shape their own profile. We stand for our Constitution, and we implement it; taking actions, be deeply loving in our soul, and by doing are duty. We maintain our focus and objectivity in the best interest for our Country, United States.
ed hardy
ed hardy hoody
ed hardy swim trunks