In a vote sure to be read as a sign of the Obama administrations power on defense matters, the Senate voted by a lopsided 40–58 in favor of an amendment stripping $1.75 billion for the F-22 from the defense authorization bill.
You could almost hear the whoops in Defense Secretary Robert Gates offices as he and his team scored a decisive victory. Gates reputation as a man willing to take tough decisions and to stick with them gained greatly and won enhanced credibility with the vote. He will be difficult to defeat on any major program decision he takes for the forseeable future.
Sen. Carl Levin, chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said he knew stopping production of the fighter would be painful but he and his fellow lawmakers had to grasp such nettles based on what is best for the nation and what is best for the men and women of the armed forces. Another factor that clearly played a role in swinging reluctant lawmakers behind Levin and Sen. John McCain were the clear signals sent from the Pentagon that F-22 production should be stopped. The recommendation is strong and clear, as strong and clear as I have ever heard, Levin said on the Senate floor.
{ 71 comments… read them below or add one }
F22: The B-2 of fighters.
R.I.P. F-22A Raptor
That is it people America is over!
Gates got Reagan into the White House.
He destroyed the CIA and no the DoD is over.
There’s nothing like taking a stick to a gun fight.
The day we start picking on a nation with a real military, we’re screwed. No disrespect to those of you flying F-15′s, 16 & 18′s, but none of your aircraft are capable of outperforming S-300′s. It’s just a matter of technical fact.
The Obama administration will be holding its national day of neutering tonight at the White House, all men of fighting age are invited.
“Senate stripped $1.75 billion for seven new F-22 fighters jets”, so that leaves us at 187 planes by 2010.
Also, just a heads up, there are some typos in your write up Colin Clarke:
forseaable –> foreseeable
Commtitee –> Committee
stoipping –> stopping
ahve –> have
Just pointing them out for the heck of it.
Billions for Obama’s cronies. Not one penny more for defense. Way to go Barry!
What a surprise! A liberal radical who buddies up with left-wing terrorists, communists, and the anti-American crowd takes a hatchet to defense when he become President.
It’s almost like his goal is to purposefully weaken America. Lucky for us we know that can’t be true. Obama loves his country and fellow countrymen oh-so much, he’d never, ever, ever stab us in the back. Not in a million, billion years.
The foaming mouth anti-Obama folks on this site are fun.
“Billions for Obama’s cronies. Not one penny more for defense. Way to go Barry!
What a surprise! A liberal radical who buddies up with left-wing terrorists, communists, and the anti-American crowd takes a hatchet to defense when he become President.
It’s almost like his goal is to purposefully weaken America. Lucky for us we know that can’t be true.”
The defense budget has been increased 4 – 9% for 2010…and that number is BEFORE all the additions that Murtha recently added and doesn’t include the 160+ billion in suplementary funding for Afghan and Iraq. Doesn’t sound like “taking the hatchet to the military” to me.
In comparison, Bush’s roadmap called for a 3% reduction in the defense budget for 2010. I’m betting you weren’t screaming to the rafters and calling him a terrorist supporter when he showed his defense spending plan.
As for Obama’s cronies getting billions… how so? The F-22 was built by Lockheed Martin. Guess who makes teh F-35? You know, the one that Gates said there would be 500 more of thanks to the cutting of the F-22? Oh, that’s right, Lockheed Martin. No one made or lost money on this one, it was just shuffled around.
And before you say people lost jobs: yes, apparently 10k jobs will be lost associated with the F-22. Gates claims that 80k+ jobs will be created thanks to the new funding for the F-35. I’m going to assume his numbers are inflated, but again, I think it’s safe to say that it’s a 0-net job loss, if not an outright job-gain.
SO, when is Boeing going to start cranking out more F-15s to fill in the fighter shortage?
Oh stop!
I love military goodies as much as the next guy, maybe even more so..
But this does not screw us at all.
We have no one to defend against and S300 missles are not the end all. Have they even been used against a quality opponent yet?
We are fine, plus f 18 and f 15 are not used for degrading enemy air defenses…
Russia had recently sold syria some supposedly super anti air stuff and israel flew right past it to attack syria.
Obama is a war hawk in lefty clothing have no doubt.
“The day we start picking on a nation with a real military, we’re screwed.”
Uhh, who would that be Chris? Who is it that has this ‘real’ military that we’d be ‘screwed’ by picking on?
There is no military on earth that can truly compete with us. Our capabilities (advertised and unadvertised) so far surpass anyone’s currently that any comparison is absurd at best.
Anyone suggesting that this small reduction in fighter procurement is going to neuter us or make us incapable of taking on any military across the globe is simply ignorant of the facts.
I don’t think it’s implausible to use UASs to kill S300 sites,since you are not risking life.
F22: The B-2 of fighters.
Posted by: Drake1 at July 21, 2009 01:39 PM
Have to agree with you probbly the best fighter ever made but its just to damn expensive.
And sence we already know stealth fighters can be shot down and detected by radar why dont we consentrate on ECM systems?
About obama i think he’s just a liberal a$$ as much as the next non cult member but i think this would have happened anyways even if bush were still in office.
I mean seriously 4 of these makes a Aly. DDG Realy.
I think we need to work on a pure fighter design no stealth but excellent speed agility ECM and cheap.
Ok cheap as in modern fighter terms.
Yeah,
Cutting funding for aircraft that were added solely to keep jobs in some states makes us weaker…..good argument.
Excellent move on the Congress’s part.
Also, it should be noted that a Republican-appointed SecDef and a Republican former fighter pilot helped lead the opposition to the 7 F-22s.
Finally someone gets some balls and stops the endless billions going to military suppliers. Our troops are dying overseas while the big contractors are getting rich. This must end!
This is a great day for the DoD. Maybe now we can get defense on track and focused on threats that exist vs the threats we wish still existed. The F-22 was the Military Industrial Complex champion and wiser men than most warned to guard against it. Great job POTUS Obama, SecDef Gates, Sen McCain, USAF CoS ect…
It takes LEADERSHIP to make tough decisions like this.
-DA
Thank GOD they are cutting the F-22 production. They are an enormous waste of money and making them should halt; let Japan or Israel or Australia buy these hundred-million-dollar boondoggles! American cannot afford $200 million dollar fighters. The F-35 or more advanced F-15s and F-16s will work just fine for 95% of foreseeable future threats. We are bankrupting our country with profligate spending like the F-22 program. Thank GOD someone has the guts to cancel it, finally.
Maybe just maybe (not) they are planning on an even better fighter.
I laugh about all this talk about the Raptor being expensive.
We will talk again when we see the JSF costing.
We can afford a trillion$ for economic stimulus and also for health care, but not a few billion for air dominance. The F-35 is an F-22 with one engine, a dog, with far less top speed, far less acceleration and maneuverability. The real truth, a huge cost increase is coming for the F-35. An independent PAE study showed cost increases so high they wouldn
Fact is FCS, F22, DDG are all cold war relics…
We are in two wars with guys dying everyday. The F22 will do NOTHING to help bring them home safe an complete their missions. We need to focus on them, and leave these over-priced future systems on the drawing boards
Damon, we should have sold the F-22 to Australia. They are the only ally besides the Brits and Canucks that can be trusted to not transfer our best tech. Israel first off wouldn’t be paying for them, the US would. 2nd, the israelis’ spy on the US almost as much as the Chinese and Russians so they don’t deserve the Raptor.
“Based on what is best for the country…” What tripe this is! If Congress was doing what was best for the country the stimulas bill would have been for durable military equipment instead of pork projects that stimulate nothing but bought and paid for Congressional Votes in the next general election. Remember the stimulas, anyone? That 780 Billion dollars was spent to “jump-start” the American ECONOMY. Unfortunately, what money that wasn’t spent on various welfare projects mainly went to “public works” projects. Numerious studies have shown that each dollar spent on military equipment results in over 6 dollars of economic activity. For each dollar spent on roads, bridges, and buildings there is less than 50 cents worth of economic activity. This should have been reason enough to keep the F-22 funding. But since it is gone, the Pentagon can now enforce the termination clause of is contract and perminantly remove our ability to ever produce additional aircraft of that type. That means we will never be able to build another one, period. No replacements for accidental losses. No replacement for those destroyed in combat. And no way to build any more no matter what threats we face. And this is supposed to be a better solution for the Country? In a fighter that they project will have to last at least 30 years! Please!! These politicians make me sick. And the people who support them in their idiotcy aren’t any better. No wonder the communists call them “useful idiots!”
I dislike the zero sum game of F-22 v. F-35, but to use action movie stars as a metaphor, the F-22 is the equivalent of Chuck Norris while the F-35 is like Shia LaBeouf.
Oh, c’mon, the f-22 is the B-1 of fighters, in the sense of something focused on the last war. In the case of the B-1, it was low level penetration for hbomb delivery. Oops, forgot about radar. In the case of the f-22, it was toe-to-toe with the Russians (not sure how that would turn out). We have people dying because the AF wants to zoom. The current situation, which we have been dealing with for the past 8 years at least, demands support for ground troops, not air supremacy.
Where is that response, which would not require some sort of gee-whiz stuff, merely the resurrection of a skyraider or equivalent.
$250 million’
- typo lol
Hey BritTankie – I assume you are from Britain, Ya? Quit commenting on out blogs and go back to watching your once great country go down the toilet. The Sun used to never set on the British Empire now the sun rarely shines on her. Too bad for a nation that once was great.
Re: bobbymike
That’s probably the most moronic comment on this entire thread, bobbymike. Wait, are you sure that you aren’t baby-milk? LoL
“Get out of here, [Brits!] Leave me alone and let me suck on my thumb.”
at times, very American, i’m afraid
Hey BritTankie, Obama being the “best damn leader?” You must be smoking something. This “best damn leader” is bankrupting this country with his phony stimulus but can’t seem to find money for something that is actually in the constitution – Defense.
I used to be an Obama drone. But I came across Mark Levin, who happened to open my eyes:
http://rope.zmle.fimc.net/player/player.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fpodloc.andomedia.com%2FdloadTrack.mp3%3Fprm%3D2069xhttp%3A%2F%2Fcitadelcc.vo.llnwd.net%2Fo29%2Fnetwork%2FLevin%2FMP3%2Flevin07212009.mp3
http://www.marklevinshow.com/
Hey, Alex, smoke on
You miss the point by like a mile. Hope that you can read. Try again.
If you are those who only feel safe with their shotguns and pacifiers by their side, perhaps that explains why you think America is constituted by “Defense” (oh, by that perhaps you meant OFFENSE).
Let your steam out, ReconTeam…. it helps.
Something that nobody here seems to know or address (to include Colin):
The Senate wasn’t going to “add” a couple billion dollars for more F-22s. They were going to sap Air Force and Army Personnel, Operations, and Maintenance funds to pay for them. Senator Chambliss (who’s state makes a lot of planes) said this tactic was okay because they take from those accounts all the time. WTF?
Re: TB
One word – disillusioned or delusional, take your pick.
I would lean towards delusional. Lockheed and Boeing bought Chambliss a long time ago.
keep it coming – it’s getting entertaining.
Watching people like bobbymike and ELP go postal with the stripping of $1.75 billion for the F-22 from the defense authorization bill – priceless
I can’t believe anybody takes ELP seriously on that issue. ZERO credibility. I’ve seen him literally cut to pieces in debates with people who actually serve or are educated on the matter.
Just witnessed sub-zreo credibility.
The 7 F22s will be sorely missed when the UFOs attack.
I can’t believe anybody takes ELP seriously on that issue. ZERO credibility. I’ve seen him literally cut to pieces in debates with people who actually serve or are educated on the matter.
Yeah nice going “Darth”. After all, everyone takes you seriously. I think the second movie was your best.
This is a great victory… canceling the F-22 and all.
Meanwhile we have shoveled 888 billion into Operations: USELESS DIRT 1 and 2 and still no Osama on a stick. Way to go.
Oh god the threads decended into usless obama anti obama messages.
Liberals suck, Conservitives suck (cause they cant seem to find a sane human being and keep listening to ron paul), ALL of them suck because its become a game to them.
Oh yes and brit Obama sucks to sorry and this isnt a rich folk saying it its one of those working poor uninsured.
He’s a wimp defense wise, and idiot economy wise, oh yea did i mention his annoying habit of slobbering all over the shoes of people who hate us?
The government cant even run medicare well. Hell here in TN we used to have a universal healthcare system basicaly people moved here from everywhere to get on it. It was abused so much we gave it up.
Goverment runs best when it runs minimaly.
citanon
a su-24 comparable to a A-10?
in your dreams!
It is more like an F-111.
and the Su-25 has things even a a-10C can only dream about.
best choice ever – the great white elephant is a pointless waste of money and time , look at the great hanger queen – the F15C , all it does is sit pretty for the last 25 years , whilst the real work horses , bombed up F16`s , A-10`s and Harriers do the real work.
since the F22 can carry AIM-9 , AMRAAM , and 2 (yes 2) GBU-32`s , its wings are plumbed for fuel or more amraams/sidewinders – its the best thing – kill it and forget the expensive mistake its been.
As non military person, I do have this question: On the argument (the current administration’s)that the F-35 is newer and superior, if this is so how come we are willing to sell/partner with everyone and their dog on this aircraft but won’t sell the F-22 to anybody? Not Japan. Not Australia.
When it takes 30 years of R&D, bureaucratic pong, funding evaporation, and production setbacks to field a mission platform, that mission is bound to change – making the platform obsolete.
The F-22 is a 1980′s aircraft(1981 was when the program was started). They wanted so many bells and whistles on it that it took too long to produce, and cost way too much money. It’s a fine craft, but no longer relevant. Its a ‘production prototype’, just like the F-117.
The proliferation of technologies in the world today is enabling the former ‘third world’ nations to rapidly achieve parity with their Western counterparts. And many people have this idea in their heads the US is the best at everything hands-down, no matter what, without exception. Not so. Our Mobius Strip military-industrial-R&D bureaucracy has quagmired our advancements in a viscous sea of politics, aborted development, and pet projects.
If we really want to stay ahead of curve, we need to decrease our paper-to-production interval. 30 years to field an aircraft is inexcusable. We need platforms to be cheaper, more adaptable, and fielded faster.
No country on earth compares with our conventional military might. Some our trying to get up to our level or surpass us but they are not there yet. There are a lot of places 1.75 billion dollars can go besides purchasing seven overpriced stealth planes which will stay in the states and only drop ordnance or engage enemies in friendly training exercises. Besides we are making further progress on the F-35 so be happy, yeah its not as glamorous or extravagant as the Raptor but it gets the job done like every other plane in our arsenal does. So stop whining and complaining. Lastly, for the jackass(es) who say that those 1.75 billion dollars will go into the pockets of lobbyists, Obama, SecDef or anybody else connected to this issue, believe whatever bulls**t you want. Frankly no one cares about your opinion or what you say, all you do is just blow hot air and spread meaningless controversy and lies. give it up
No country on earth compares with our conventional military migh.
__________________
true and nobody can hope to invade the mainland US, but the country das interested elsewhere in the world.
Just so we all know that:
It would cost another $8 billion to upgrade 183 Raptors to 3.2 [future baseline] standard.
I too am glad that Congress saved $1.75 billion by blocking the purchase of additional seven airframes.
@I can say that Obama is proving every day to be one of the worst president in the American history.
whahahahahahaha.. gosh..
Good. The current 180+ unit buy is a lot of F-22s. One suspects that the F-22 will in turn be replaced by a drone of some sort in a decade or two. In the meantime, this is adequate, especially if it is as superior to the F-15 as has been claimed so far.
@ ohwilleke
in a decade or two? good one. Any drone that can do what an Raptor can do or better will cost with R&D so much you can buy at least 2 Raptors for that.
Why? it has to fly without help, must have almost A.I. like CPU and what not and that will really be expensive.
An UAV that can do everthing a manned Fighterjet can do will not show up before 2040 and that one will be the most expensive plane ever made.
We barely need the F22 to do what the F22 does, we certainly won’t need a drone able to do it. A nice small stealthy drone that can feed back intel would be good. Then some X gen JSOW-ER or SLAM-ER weapon along that line can be launched from a few hundred miles away to hit whatever target we are interested in making go bye bye. Launched by probably some other drone.
Not only is the F22 a 30 year old concept, the type of battle it was being envisioned to wage is 30 years old as well. We weren’t deploying 100 to 300 mile precision stand off weapons from tactical aircraft in the 80s. That’s what we have now, no doubt the ranges are going to increase, the autonomy of the weapons etc.
Whatever comes next for air dominance, if there is something, needs to think about the battle space it is going to be used in. The F22 was for a scenario that just doesn’t exist anymore. They are trying to dream up other uses for it to justify its existence.
Razer,
No, the defense has been DECREASED for FY2010. Don’t be such a fool. The only reasy why the “number” even appears ‘larger’ is becasue of the inclusion of much of the war spending being ADDED to the base budget where as in previous years war spending was funded through supplimental appropriations. There have been previous threads hear listing SOME of the more significant CUTS to the defense budget.
Sorry but what Gates is doing is taking the money that would/should have gone towards procuring another 120 F-22s over the next six years (20 per year) & using it instead to procure ~150 “accelerated” LRIP F-35s. Thats not 150 more F-35s, thats 150 more (up to 513 vs the previous 362) high cost LRIP F-35s over the next six years & fewer less costly full rate production F-35s later. To put that another way, instead of procuring 20 F-22s per year over the next six years for 120 more F-22 (bringing the total to 295 – the thru-FY2009 ’183′ is ACTUALLY only 175 production + 8 non-production airframes), Gates is cutting the F-22 at 179 (again + 8 non-production = 187) & using THAT money to procure (on average) 25 ADDITIONAL LRIP F-35s (the reason why he can get 25 F-35s vs 20 F-22s is the cost of LRIP F-35s SHOULD decrease at a faster rate than the cost of additional F-22s, bringing the LRIP F-35 cost below that of the F-22 even though it starts out MORE expensive) over the next six years to bring the number of F-35s thru FY2015 up to 513 (vs the previous plan of ‘just’ 362).
Ever hear of the “stimulus”, or the several bailouts, or “health Care reform? Take a wild guess where the bulk of THOSE MANY BILLIONS have gone & are going…
No more F-22′s means the loss of some 10,000 jobs working of the F-22. Procuring LRIP F-35s at a higher rate doens’t create ANY new jobs! Those ’80,000′ F-35 jobs are/were going to be created reguardless.
-_- Obama gives $5.8 billion to Acorn – a group known for voting fraud and alleged money laundering – basically a criminal organisation. I feel the money should be taken back and given over to the Raptor program to buy 42 more Raptors. At least then the money spent would benefit the economy versus going into the pockets of a select few Acron board members.
Re: pfcem
* Raptor readiness rate $100 million per copy hot-dog jets? Convey your wish to ground troops in either war zones [and you will get a massive headache in no time].
Re: pfcem
* Readiness $100 million per copy hot-dog jets? Convey your wish to ground troops in either war zones [and you will get a massive headache in no time].
Re: pfcem
* Readiness $100 million per copy hot-dog jets? Convey your wish to ground troops in either war zones [and you will get a massive headache in no time].
(useless commentary server)
Re: pfcem
* Readiness $100 million per copy hot-dog jets? Convey your wish to ground troops in either war zones [and you will get a massive headache in no time].
@pfcem
“No, the defense has been DECREASED for FY2010. Don’t be such a fool. The only reasy why the “number” even appears ‘larger’ is becasue of the inclusion of much of the war spending being ADDED to the base budget where as in previous years war spending was funded through supplimental appropriations. There have been previous threads hear listing SOME of the more significant CUTS to the defense budget.”
This is a falsehood. The FY2010 budget is 10% lower THAN THE PENTAGON REQUESTED. The Pentagon always requests more than they need because they know it will be cut. It is, however, 7 – 9% higher than Bush requested for 2010.
The White House proposes to spend $533.7 billion on the Pentagon, a 4% increase over 2009. Include spending on Iraq and Afghanistan, which would be another $130 billion (or a total of $664 billion), and overall defense spending would be around 4.2% of GDP, the same as 2007. The Joint Chiefs requested $584 billion for 2010 before the $130 billion supplement, a ridiculous year-over-year increase from 2009.
Those numbers are fact, 100%. 4% more spending in 2009 than in 2010, BEFORE the 130+ billion supplement for Iraq and Afghanistan. You can in no way call it a budget cut in the real world. The Pentagon spins it and calls it a cut, but only a cut to what they requested, not a cut to what they were already getting.
In comparison, Bush’s 2010 roadmap called for a 3% DECREASE in defense spending from 2009 to 2010. When a Republican is charting out that defense spending needs to be decreased, you know there is some trimming that needs to be done.
Now in 2011 there may be something to bitch about. Obama’s roadmap calls for $611 billion in 2011, counting spending for Iraq and Afghanistan. The thinking is that Iraq is going to be much cheaper in 2011 than in 2010, but if it isn’t the money will need to come from other areas. Again, this is a roadmap and not an actual budget proposal. The realities on the ground will hopefully raise the $611 billion number.
The rest of your rhetoric I’m not going to bother addressing. This is a defense site, not a place to debate domestic policy.
Er, oops, I transposed some numbers:
4% more spending in 2009 than in 2010
should be
4% more spending in 2010 than in 2009
What a bunch of crapola.
The F-22 is the single most important weapon in our inventory. Cancel the very late F-35 and build more F-18s. Cancel anything except the Virginia class SSN to pay for at least another 3 whings of these.
If we don’t have air superiority we die.
“Obama gives $5.8 billion to Acorn – a group known for voting fraud and alleged money laundering – basically a criminal organisation”
I bet you also want to see Obama’s birth certificate, right?
“Obama gives $5.8 billion to Acorn – a group known for voting fraud and alleged money laundering – basically a criminal organisation”
“I bet you also want to see Obama’s birth certificate, right?”
Are you actually arguing that those idiots in ACORN should be getting that money? It is a fact that ACORN has been involved with voter fraud, why should they get money that could get our military what they need for the future?
@ M167A1
If budget runs dry, your hot-dog jets and nuke subs become gate-keepers. Understood? Idiot.
If we act against better intel
and end up preparing for a wrong war,
we can all kiss your F22, SSN and MM167A1 goodbye.
Our single most important weapon is our infantrymen, not some Cold War relic.
“Are you actually arguing that those idiots in ACORN should be getting that money? It is a fact that ACORN has been involved with voter fraud, why should they get money that could get our military what they need for the future?”
It is a ‘fact’ only for those who have absolutely no idea what ACORN is required, by law, to do. People who rail against ACORN are having their ignorance taken advantage of by unscrupulous right-wing liars, just like the fools who think that President Obama may not be an American citizen.
Further, I’d be interested to know under what legislation ACORN is supposedly getting billions.
This story never gets old. This plane was never meant to be this expensive… somebody started complaining about the original price
Congress "It costs too much… make less of it!"
LockMart "But we had a deal!!! Okay, you get less planes… but the cost goes up to compensate for our losses!"
Congress "FINE, whatever… next item…"
-a few weeks later-
Congress "IT COSTS TOO MUCH… AGAIN… MAKE LESS OF IT!!!
LockMart "But we had a deal… AGAIN…" and the beat goes on…
Over time, this chucks the price per unit into some God-awful figure that no one wants to play with. And then times of trouble come and people feel better off without the program and it gets scrapped before it gets a chance to earn its keep. It killed the F-22 and now we're doing the same dance with the F-35. Nobody bothers to pay attention to our history until its too late and by that time we've wasted time and money on something that we're never going to get the opportunity to use. If this is what it takes to defend the country, one wonders if the military should even deal with congress at all… Read the Art of War, there are warnings against mixing civilian and martial affairs.