A top Pentagon official told a small group of defense reporters this morning (July 23) that the upcoming QDR will likely propose the formation of an aviation cadre devoted solely to irregular warfare.
The Pentagon’s guru for special operations and low intensity conflict, the renowned Michael Vickers, told us that he believes a light strike, light reconnaissance aircraft would be useful to troops in an unconventional fight.
“That’s one of the issues that this QDR is looking at about how to create these sort of irregular warfare air units — should we do that, number one, because nothing has been decided — then what that mix might be. But it might not reside in the special operations forces, it might reside in the general purpose forces as sort of a counterinsurgency capability,” Vickers said.
Of course, this jibes with the Navy’s Imminent Fury initiative and rumblings from Norty Schwartz (USAF-COS) to create an irregular air wing in the Air Force.
Vickers went on to raise an interesting point — one that the brief I posted yesterday from the Navy’s IWO hinted at in the section on Imminent Fury — that an aircraft like that could also be an advantage to training local forces in counterinsurgency air techniques.
“One of the advantages with that kind of aircraft being adapted to the counterinsurgency battlefield is that they tend to be very inexpensive and something that a partner nation could afford. … They’re getting a look,” he said.
But before you think Vickers was hedging on the creation of an irregular air force, listen to what he said later when pressed.
“I think there is a need for that kind of capability. I think that capability is being looked at in the QDR. But the question is how much, and exactly the mix,” Vickers added. Notice he didn’t say ‘whether’ it would be created or part of the recommendations from the QDR.
And then this more demonstrative statement:
“I’m fairly confident we’ll end up with something. The question is how large a force and what capability to we put in there and whether we put it in over time. But some kind of irregular warfare something or other — some Air Force unit, whether it’s a series of squadrons or a wing or a group or whatever — I think is an idea whose time has come.”
Looks like the Spads will be back!
– Christian
{ 34 comments… read them below or add one }
Good Morning Folks,
Since this looks like a form of mission creep with the goal of creating a new branch of the military, Special Operations, lets get on with it, create a chief of staff of Special Operations, openly recruit enlisted and officer personal, give it, it’s own bases and a budget. The only real questions here are DHS and the CIA who are developing, and in some areas duplicating the capacities of a Special Operations branch of the Armed Forces.
Feel not for the Air Force, years ago it wanted to opt out of the ground support role and concentrate on the manned fight role and the strategic bomber. The AF resisted the ground attack mission and put the A-10 fleet in the Air National Guard in the 1980′s and the AF has yet to, and I guess now it’s to late to embrace the UAV. The war the Air Force wants to fight starts at 10,000 feet.
A light attack air wing/battalion/squadron or what ever it would be called under the command of Spec.Op’s will certainly dilute the mission of the already hemorrhaging Air Force farther. The Navy and Marine will certainly have to change their mission work ups but have enough uniqueness in capacity and size with there traditional abilities to survive.
It appears that it’s time with Special Operation to either sh** or get off the pot. The piece meal allocation to Special Operations form the other services is weakening their abilities to perform their missions and creates confusion with in the ranks.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
If they want a COIN airplane I hope they go for the A-29 super tucano. I would love to see those things flying and dropping bombs on the taliban in Afghanistan.
1st SOW would be the logical parent unit.
As an aside, the picture shown above of a Super Tuc flying wing on a Bronco makes me wonder just how much the GIB can see in the former a/c. I’ve personally sat in a Bronco and can attest to the excellent visibility. It’s like sitting in a greenhouse. It looks like the Super Tuc observer will see a lot of wing and not much more below the airframe.
“It appears that it’s time with Special Operation to either sh** or get off the pot”
Byron, I’d say the same for the Air Force. If this prop-driven CAS program takes off, the Army is going to start asking for this kind of air support on a regular basis. SOCOM isn’t big enough to field that many squadrons and either the Air Force will be forced to accept the mission, or the Army will start getting CAS from the Navy and the Corps. Combine that with emerging UAV programs, before you know it this plane might start edging out F-35 funds (especially if the plane is a fraction of the cost).
Bill,
Just a thought, but my guess is the GIB is going to be a dedicated WSO, much like the F-4/F-14, and as such, he won
@ OEFOIFsheppard?
Honestly how are these better than the A-10C in the ground attack role, and better in a UAV when it comes to flying around and observing or firing Hellfires?
Good Afternoon TB,
I hear you. You nailed the institutional problem with Special Operations, nobody owns it. If the rotary wing, UAV, prop. driven aircraft, AC’s and what ever else they have could be brought under a single unified command. it’s mission would be clear.
I agree size matters. The current Spec. Ops. community is about 10K and consolidation of the various units into a single chain of command and it’s head quarters would most likely bring Spec. Ops. up to 20-30K. not big enough to be an independent branch of the military. The clear advantage of a separate Special Operations Branch is that it would give them a equal place at the table for war planning with the other services.
At the same time though some units of the other services could be moved to the Special Operations Command, such as small boat units, dedicated air transport to Airborne Operations, Rangers, Civil Affairs, Psych. Operations, Light Infantry Battalions from both the Army and Marines, CSAR, and other specialized units that are orphans and feel they don’t get as much love form the traditionalists in the mother services as they would like to have. I could see an in time a force of 100K being developed.
ALLONS,
Byron
“Stewart’s Platoon”
A10s are great, but they’re old. The production line is closed. They are more expensive even if it were still open. Whatever we use ideally will be something whatever country we are fighting in can use for their own air force. It needs to be available now. Cheap is a good thing, saving money is never bad. A10s are kinda like driving nails with gold plated hammers, a little overkill for taking out the intended targets. Those are some basic reasons why the A10, although good in the role, is not the best idea for a COIN plane.
How about we turn a few army units into general counter insurgency warfare units for areas like afghanistan and iraq and other such low intensity conflicts. Have them outfitted with MRAP type vehicles and gear. Have the troops trained mainly in counterinsurgency tactics.
Give them command of this Coin airforce and other such units as support.
And have other units most marines, the lighter harder hitting army units and such as a regular assualt units.
Basicaly, A war breaks out US main battle forces go in destroy standing enemy army and units then once such heavy high intensity fighting is over bring in COIN and peacekeeping units to operate the rest of the conflict.
Just a thought.
I’m all for SOCOM “getting off the pot” and going away entirely.
Bring the various units back to their parent service, and get them back to their original mission of supporting said service.
If SOCOM ever had a purpose, it is now gone. While joint operations are still not painless, they are leaps and bounds ahead of where Desert One capabilities were.
Time to peel this leech off and call it a bad memory.
Good, about time.
Recon Team,
Any two seater that has long station time is a better platform for developing the fight on the ground . The COIN aircraft will talk on the other platforms and have the back seater to monitor all the nets and have the unique SA a UAV does not have.
This would make a an immediate impact day one.
It would will be interesting as to how/if such aircraft would be woven into a SEAD or DEAD mission. Or if they would be used to cover the REMF & supply routes during a hot conflict.
Bring back the twin tail Invader or Mitchell’s!
Theres another one I like that is sort of like the tankbuster thunderbolt that has that twin tail design. Cant think of name.
The point is the light bomber designs of past are cool planes.
Those would be better for payload and loiter but im not an expert. Dont need to be an expert in the Military to make decisions obviously anyways it seems (heh) so take this advice!
Get out the check book and let’s get some Super Tucano’s! Also get some T-6 Texan II’s to the Afghani Army and bring them up to speed. If I were an domestic company like Hawker Beech they would also jump on the bandwagon and start pitching & selling to the Pentagon.
does it mean they will drop away their idea to switch UVAs instead A-10 and those birds?
We miss the OA-10 and F-20.
JW:
Are you talking about the p-38 lightnight ,aka twin tail devil?
>I don’t know if the F-20 would be more suitable than the F-16 for this sort of thing pedestrian.
I remember Chirstian posted an article regarding F-20 for COIN, which this article reminded me about the F-20 again. The advantage of F-20 over F-16 is the price tag, at least during the years of F-20 vs F-16, both competing as a potential rival in the world market.
Oh, and sorry about saying OA-10 while I meant OV-10. While I love to see OV-10 for COIN, its the armor against ground fire which I have a concern. In that term, I beleive A-10 is the best of all for now, as long as the cost performance is reasonable.
aaait was thought the A-1 was one of the best and the skyraider was looke at for production. this was thought not to be cost effective in this day and time perhaps it would be. are any A-26 (Nimrods)available? The Skyraider or its clone would meet all requirements.
For all of you that are worried about this plane getting shot down I have this: why fly helicopters then? Hell, why fight at all if the other side has guns right? I can’t believe people are actually worried about a stray AK-47 round knocking the damned thing out of the sky. The only thing needed is a good defesive aids system to prevent the stray SA-7 from knocking it out of the sky. That is what has been bringing our aircraft down in Afghanistan.
Hawker Beechcraft was just awarded a contract for 37 Project Liberty UC-12W ISR aircraft so I think they are doing pretty good.
The AT-6 is supposed to be the current front runner in the USAF. I believe they were just purchased by the Iraqi AF as well.
It would make sense for the Navy to utilize their leased (for one year I believe) Super Tucano to develop doctrine. This will allow the AT-6 to be developed and tested so that the Air Force can make a bulk purchase. I don’t really see the Navy having a need for this type of aircraft. Marines yes, but not Navy. It’s just a way for them to get money.
DC2
Dual qualify F-22 pilots on the AT-6.
Right now, whether accurate or not, the Air Force F-22 community is perceived by many in government as being disloyal prima donnas in bed with defense contractors. In consort with their corporate allies, they made their last gasp effort to advance their cause when they unsuccessfully tried to influence Congress for more jets using the corrupt process of political campaign contributions by lobbyists.
The best thing the Air Force F-22 community could do to restore some of their credibility is to get into today
I think one of the nicer features of all these contenders is theyre cheap. If we end up not liking one it isnt like we wasted 10s of billions. I think from a logistical stand point the AT6 makes the most sense since we already use them as trainers dont we? The supply chain must be in place for parts and the support staff.
this looks like a way to get the industry a development contract for a manned fixed wing aircraft in an age where everything is allocated to uav.
short term they might use an off the shelf aircraft like the super-tucano. long term this might lead to explore a completely new design.
the a-10 might be overkill, but its a proven aircraft in this role. if its loitering abilities would be improved if would be good in this role
@ Paul
Dual-qualifying and maintaining proficiency in a AT-6/OV-10 type aircraft and F-22/F-35 aircraft are worlds apart.
It is pretty common for fast mover pilots to rent or borrow a small prop plane for personal use and promptly bury it in the ground (often with their families and friends on board). The problem is that the prop planes don’t have all the reserve power and AOA capabilities that a fast mover has and it is easy to get into trouble you cannot power out of. The same principles would apply on the battlefield.
The TASK: Capable of Low & SLOW Operations
CONDITIONS: Air/Land/SEA Capable
STANDARDS: Support Ground Forces,
All Weather Capable
In Field Maintenance Capable,
Catalog Line Material Availability
Payload Usable
Cost Effective COIN Operations
End User Trainable / Easy
Transition Special Air Ops
Service Branch Immaterial
-END OF STORY-
CDR Savard-
Thanks for posting those links, good stuff. I’ll add one I found: http://www.volanteaircraft.com/l2vma.htm -also check out the “OV-10″ link.
I’d like to hear your opinion on Boeing maybe resurrecting the Bronco.
its about time. we already have special forces to fight “irregular”forces. why not have a special aviation unit? how about Cessna caravan with a wing mounted mini gun and a 30 MM hanging out the rear cargo door.
Answer look at whats out there fly it and buy it, all this looking and seeing and profing doesn’t work, there are a number of Prop jobs out there that can fit the bill. As lone as its slow moving, can stay on station and deliver a knock out blow what is the problem. Politics aside we need slow movers to cover the troops and we need slow movers to remain in area to keep the bad guys down and out. Get on with the job and save lives that is more important than money or jobs.
CDR Savard,
Good commentary sir.
DC2
elgatoso: Yes the p38 Lightning!!!
I vote for modernized those being contracted to an AMERICAN company!!
Would older USSR versions of the stinger be problematic for these planes? I imagine there are at least some that the Russians “lost” when the cold war ended.
The concept is the biggest hurdle here. We may decide, just as we have a number of jets for different missions, that we need more than just one COIN aircraft option. Sometimes we might favor one capability over another and a single airframe might not be what we need. In any event, it will be nice to see us buy something we need, can already build, and doesn’t cost half of Costa Rica’s GDP each.
Sky Raiders forever! Serious, an updated AD-4 or OV-10 would do fine and if produced in numbers would be fairly inexpensive. These two aircraft capacities are a good fit for the current needs of COIN CAS.
In 1952 a AD-4 took off from the deck of the USS Princeton with a Fuel/ Ordance load of 10,400 lb.; an OV-10 was once fitted with a 106mm RR
Don’t let the AF have them. Stick them in the 4th MAW **, Marines are the ones who, DO CAS. Navy Air is ok but
*(Carbon fiber body [?] and an engine that does not leak oil all over the place)
**(The Reserve Wing, this will keep them well maintained and crewed even when we are at “Peace”)