India is the Russian defense industry’s latest beneficiary:
When Russia gave India a retired Soviet aircraft carrier five years ago, New Delhi was delighted — little realising the vessel would turn into a costly white elephant.
Russia, India’s longtime weapons supplier, said in 2004 it would give the country the 44,570-tonne “Admiral Gorshkov” as a gift, provided Delhi paid a Russian shipyard 974 million dollars to refurbish the carrier.
Since then, the price has skyrocketed for fixing up the 27-year-old ship, which was decommissioned after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
In 2007, Russia demanded 850 million dollars more, citing cost escalations. Then, six months ago, Russia startled India with another demand — this time for 2.9 billion dollars.
It also pushed back the ship’s delivery by four years to 2012 — a year after India must mothball its last remaining aircraft carrier, the British-origin INS Viraat.
Now India’s national auditor has waded into the row, saying the navy could have paid less for a new carrier.
What’s this mean in the long-term? India moves away from the Russian kit they’ve used for decades, buys more US-NATO gear (hopefully, I’m a big India fan… would like to see our alliance tightened).
–John Noonan
A debacle to be sure but I’m sure the Indians will take some valuable lessons from this such as never buy carriers from countries that don’t have a lot of experience building and operating carriers.
I think the Indians will slowly migrate away from Russian hardware as they’ve been burned by the shoddy workmanship of Russian hardware time and time again.
I’ve been wanting to see us get closer with India as well. They have a huge population base and are seemingly becoming more and more “western”, which equates to friendly in my book. I’d rather have us as allies with India instead of Pakistan.
Yeah, Russia uses military hardware as a major source of income. I see this like a greedy car repair shop. Well, we replaced the tires, but it needs new brakes too. While we were replacing the brakes, we noticed the bearings and suspension is shot, so you need that too…
I hope the US and India do grow closer. With all the unstable countries in that area, they could be a very powerful ally indeed.
Why don’t we just strip down the Kitty Hawk and sell them it? We’ll even pay for the shipping out there. But if they call now maybe we can also throw in at no additional Charge the John F. Kennedy free, just pay for handling and processing fee. But wait there’s more, for every Carrier they buy they can get a squadron of F-18 E/Fs. All of this for the low low price of 19.99 (billion) dollars.
Here’s how to order!
If we can get Anthony Sullivan out there I bet we could these.
Yeah, but now we see the Indians out of pace with the modern world and tryig to catch up with China. All that will happen here is the Indians will get a package of better priced goods for another sector of their armed forces. This will help to recoup some of the cost over-runs and also provide the Russians with a continued revenue stream. After all no other country will provide the expertise needed for this long term project. The USA jealously guards all technology which almost scuppered the deal for their next generation of MPA’s and the United Kingdom can’t even get two built for theur own navy, never mind help a foreign country do the same.
Good Morning Folks,
This is a family disagreement between the Russia and India, there are not any interest here for the U.S. to protect other then those of our arm merchants who can on their own do very well thank you.
As for a U.S. “Super Carrier” being transfered, forget about it. To many of the American family technology jewels are invested in these. If the Ranger, Indy, Hawk, Connie or JFK (I think thats all that are left still on the water) go anywhere it will be to be scrapped or to become part of reef off Florida. Their has been some interest in the Hawk as a floating museum but so fat the Navy has said, not interested.
The strong American relationship with Pakistan and to a lessor extent to China who is establishing it presence in the South China Sea/Tonkin Gulf area will be a mega stumbling blocks to any MAJOR U.S. arms transfer to India.
Note: I used the word MAJOR transfer, I’m fully aware of technology transfers, ballistic missile technology for one case example, from the United States to India on defense issues. I don’t consider these exchanges to be a big deal.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Let’s also not forget the variety of joint ventures, leases, and technology transfers the Indian’s have with the Russians like the MTA,PAK, T-90, and a 10 year K-152 attack sub lease.
Here I though our Defense Suppliers were the only ones with enough cajones to pull that kind of stuff.
Looks like India doesn’t really have any good options to me considering they will retire their only current carrier in 2011.
I don’t see the Kitty Hawk having much hull life left, especially being stationed in Japan. Perhaps the JFK could be offerred? Either way you are looking at doing a refit and being back out to sea in 2 years. That is a tall order.
However, if the F-18E/F won the MMRCA competition it would be an ideal fit.
Our relationship with India is getting stronger. They recently rebid their proposed purchase of new attack helicopters. Ostensibly because Boeing and Bell could not provide a bid. The proposal was redone to allow both to bid.
They are spending a lot of money on US military equipment. That money was never given to us before. We should appreciate what that statement means given the obvious issues India is having with Russia right now.
DC2
When will governments learn that procurement of defence gear requires more than just a deal that is too good to be true?
It is not the first time that the ruskies have ripped off other nations. They have a lot more than dilapidated carriers that they market around the world as “special gifts for cash” and there are still fools that fall for it. So no worries India, at least you are not alone.
People of India should take this as a good lesson, that “it aint worth havin, just coz its cheap”!
Carriers should only come from the US or japan cause were there best.
OMG im so drunks poiajfd.
I say cut a deal for the sara, ranger or jfk. Then sell em 60 f-18E/F’s 4 E-2’s, couple of COD birds, and some helos.
Without the aegis to defend it, a carrier is a giant target, so we just keep the arleigh burkes to ourselves, and the japs, aussies, RoK’s etc.
Tom Clancy be damned.
India and Russia have had strong relations for years, and this episode with the carrier isn’t going to drive India into the open arms of the US/NATO arms industry. India favours it’s independence and is not a fan of the strings attached to US arms support, nor are they particularly fond of US relations with Pakistan.
As it is, Boeing has a shot with the F/A-18E/F in the MMRCA tender, Lockheed Martin however has no chance, but if I had to bet on who’s going to win, I’d say the French or the Russians, the traditional suppliers.
Good Evening Folks,
A question to some of you carrier guys. Could the F-18’s E,F & G’s operate off any carrier other then a U.S. carrier?
The “full deck” carriers being planned or built in the rest of the world are some what smaller then even the long retired U.S.S. Midway. Don’t these high performance aircraft require a rather robust ship with steam driven, to be magnetic after the U.S.S. George H.W. Bush, catapults for take offs for take offs and 3 (CV 76 and later) or 4 arresting cables (before CV 76) for landings (traps) as well as a million gallons of jet fuel to support these modern carrier aircraft?
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Byron Skinner
Posted by: Byron Skinner at August 19, 2009 09:24 PM
Got it in one. The real challenge in operating carriers isnt having one or knowing how to use it.
But keeping a thousand ft long ship with millions of moving parts supplied. The 5k or so personel on it supplied. The aircraft with parts and fuel. and the huge amount of other things nessesary for its operation.
Also you have to provide subs for protection or frigates if you dont have good ASW helo/planes.
And yea lets just say its kinda complicated.
We can do it, thee brits can do it, and maybe the japanese if they had em.
Which i dont see why they dont. I mean seriously your the japs for crying out loud!!!
Don’t know if the JSDF Navy is big enough to support carriers. They likely have the engineering expertise to build and maintain carriers, but I suppose it’s a matter of teaching carrier doctrine to a navy which was forced back into a self-defense role when it was previously a naval superpower. Though to be honest, even then they didn’t get carriers.
I suppose China and South Korea might not be totally pleased to see the Kaigun return. It wouldn’t spark an arms race, but a lot of civilians in both countries would be upset.
Doesn’t a WASP class LHD cost less than a billion? Couldn’t we just offer them 3 of them for the same cost. Sure they can only operate AV-8s and Helos for the time, but we can sell them some VTOL JSFs in a few years to help with that.
Good Morning Folks,
To my friend Valcan. Although I can’t disagree with the quote you attributed to me, sorry to say I didn’t say that.
Back to the post. After thing about this post for a while, the burning question is why is this important?
I mean a financial deal between India and Russia is of little concern to the United States. India is not going to buy any retired warships from the United States even if we offer them. The internal politics of India just wouldn’t permit such a transaction.
Considering Mr. Nooan’s connection with Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank that contracts both to the defense industry and the DoD for intellectual content, I think the motive behind this post becomes clear. That is to encourage a wedge between the United States, Russia and India, a process that could be quite profitable for industry and would have strong support with in the Pentagon.
Right now the United States has sound if cautious relationships both The Russian Federation and India. Russia is downsizing it’s military and increasing it international transparency and India is opening up it modernization process to the world, we know that India put a Indian built and designed nuclear submarine in the water recently, the first boat of the Severodvinsk Class with an Indian designed reactor and is buying from the United States ballistic missile research with the blessing of the Commerce Department.
The United States has a strong commitment to Pakistan and India is well aware that we are not about to change. The idea that India would let American military technology enter into and corrupt it’s military is unthinkable. Any attempt by the United States to corrupt the Relationship between The Russian Federation and India would only go to strengthen their binds and increase India’s already high level suspension of the motives of the United States.
This nothing but Cold War era legacy defense thinking and should be discarded. It’s time to take defense doctrine out of the grasp of the private foundations, who operate on agendas that represent the interest of their sponsors and not the interest of the American people, and put the burden back on the shoulders of those in uniform. If the goal of the United States is to further destabilize South Asia, this is the thinking that can do it.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Got it in one. The real challenge in operating carriers isnt having one or knowing how to use it.
But keeping a thousand ft long ship with millions of moving parts supplied. The 5k or so personel on it supplied. The aircraft with parts and fuel. and the huge amount of other things nessesary for its operation.
Also you have to provide subs for protection or frigates if you dont have good ASW helo/planes.
And yea lets just say its kinda complicated.
We can do it, thee brits can do it, and maybe the japanese if they had em.
Which i dont see why they dont. I mean seriously your the japs for crying out loud!!!
Posted by: Valcan at August 20, 2009 06:05 AM
lol i was just saying thats my opinion
hello ppl a couple of points:
1.Russia –India relations go way way back and such relations aren’t made or broken over night.One of the absurdities of the cold war was that the US came very close to bombing the world’s largest democracy in 1971 and the USSR stood by us right till the very end something most Indians are very grateful for.
2.Russia still gives India the kind of technology the US doesn’t give UK/Israel nuclear submarines check,hypersonic cruise missiles check,co producton of fifth generation PAK FA check.
3.Russians usually compensate for such royal f ups in other places like giving us a sweet deal on the Irbis Radar tech transfer,leasing akula class ssn etc etc
4.I am all for a close US-India partnership but the point is that the new strategic partnership with the US is fairly new and still very much in the wait and see phase post George W Bush.It will be a while before we allow american equipment to be our military’s spear tip so to speak if ever since there is also this plan to be self sufficient in most big ticket items in the 2020–2030 timeframe.
For the money the Indians are wasting, they could have bought a USN LHA. That would be a better fit than this Soviet crap bucket. China got hosed on it’s deal too.