From our boy Steve Trimble at Flight International, we’ve received the latest snap of a Lockheed F-35B looking all bad a$$ with a weapons loadout.
While it looks all cool for the air show set, I’d have to wonder…stealth?
(FIRE IN THE HOLE!)
– Christian
August 20th, 2009 | JSF Watch | 469437 Commentshttp%3A%2F%2Fdefensetech.org%2F2009%2F08%2F20%2Ff-35b-warthog%2FF-35B+%22Warthog%222009-08-20+20%3A44%3A53jnoonanhttp%3A%2F%2Fdeftech.usmilblog.com%2F2009%2F08%2F20%2Ff-35b-warthog%2F
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{ 37 comments… read them below or add one }
While the idea of a f35b as a tank killer in the class of a A-10 warthog is kinda laughable. And frankly the F18 is probbly better close support this does provide my answer for can they mount extra weapons on removable pylons.
Of course these could be israeli models…..
LOL at the title
Well, somebody is gonna have to drop something.
I thought the F35B was meant (one of its goals) to replace Harriers in the USMC. My understanding is that even if you did strip off all the stealth on the F35, it would still be an adequate replacement for the Harrier in the CAS role. It’s faster, EASIER TO LAND on an amphib ship, etc etc. If its going to be used effectively in CAS at all, its going to need more than its internal payload.
So where they gonna stick the GAU-8 Avenger cannon?
“So where they gonna stick the GAU-8 Avenger cannon?”
Up your butt. :)
Seriously, I don’t think the Avenger cannon is that big a deal. As impressive as it is, does it do anything that a 250 lb bomb does not?
“…does it do anything that a 250 lb bomb does not?”
Uhhh, yes.
A. It’s capable of firing more than once
B. depleted Uranium rounds penetrates just slightly better than 250 lb bomb fragments
C. It scares the hell out of anyone or anything in it’s path
D. You can strafe a long path wit the GAU-8
E. It looks friggin cooler!
Stealth is for the first day of the war.
F. It friggin’ roars!
I live near the National Warplane Museum and they have an A-10. Also on display, is some of the sheetmetal they took off of it when they got it. It has holes in it about every inch. The A-10 is one awesome machine! It’s like a flying M1 Abrams. It just soaks up the damage and keeps on ticking.
I don’t see them replacing the hog anytime soon, especially with an F-35…. :)
stealth schmelth.
“As impressive as it is, does it do anything that a 250 lb bomb does not?”
Yes. It allows for a much more discriminate ground attack, when, for example, supporting closely engaged troops.
That said, the F-35 does carry a gatling of its own – the 25mm GAU-22A. Not quite so honking collosal as the 30mm GAU-8 Avenger, but still more than lethal for anything you’d use a cannon rather than dropped ordnance on.
Of course, if the F-35 is tough enough to survive flying low and slow inside the range of small arms and light weapons is another question (one which I genuinely don’t know)
They were always going to be able to mount weapons externally. The stealth was for Day1 ops. Once SEADs had been accomplished and air dominance in place, there is no need for stealth. Which of course again points out that a dual buy of advanced block F16s or other teens would provide essentially the same capabilities after Day 1 type ops and at far less cost.
The B doesn’t have an internal gun at all, it needs a gun pod. Weight issues killed it I think.
The A10s guns is fun, but a single JSOW is more effective.
I think they have added ALL the externals on purpose to shag up the stealth for show purposes.
There was concern a way back about the French (I think) wanting to get a close look ( radar wise I assume) at the profiles of stealthy aircraft F22,35 during nice friendly civilian air shows.
Pre-nobbling you radar cross section like this, looks cool for the punters, but also give a completely unrealistic representation of the stealth abilities of the F35.
Actions like this may indicate that the F35 has surpassed its
If I am not mistaken, the center pod in that configuration is the 25mm, so yes, this puppy is FULLY loaded.
Part of the reason I can see for the external gun is variable load. Yes, the AF gets the internal gun and the navy and Marines don’t…whoopy friggin doo. Guess what, if they are on a mission profile where a gun isn’t needed, then they pull the gun and safe the gas.
“The A10s guns is fun, but a single JSOW is more effective.”
Actually a 30mm round is much more effective when it comes to attacking hardened targets. JSOWs were expensive, and unnecessary. That’s why we don’t use them anymore. The CBU with WCMD are more than adequate to replace the JSOW, but i guarantee their bomblets won’t penetrate like a 30mmDP round will. As far as the Gau-8/a is concerned, though, probably won’t be used for another a/c anytime soon. All that weight for 4 seconds of continuous fire?
“I don’t see them replacing the hog anytime soon, especially with an F-35….”
Yeah, me neither, but guess what? It’s happening. All A-10′s in the fleet will be retired by 2015, if not earlier than that.
What an expensive hole in the ground that thing will make.
Dual role A/C like the F-16/18 can make decent strike aircraft but thy just don’t do as well in the CAS role as they have to get down low where AAA can get at them.
We get around this somewhat by using laser and GPS guided stand off weapons, but sooner or later this “race car” will get down low and then some dude with a ZSU is going eat him for lunch.
I remember field problems (on the Vulcan and Stinger) where we would defend something and I always worried more about A-10s than anything else, even helicopters. Fast movers are easy meat, the A-8s did okay but the hogs are just plain spooky. That tight turning radius and quiet engine are just a b*tch to deal with. The A-10s seemed to be harder to lock up on IR too, I’m not certian if this is due to the design or that they are usually flown by madmen.
In 1991 I also had the privilage of seeing what they did to real targets, and the cannon is much more effective than anything except perhaps cluster bombs.
An RPV “A-10″ might be an option for CAS in the future but they should cancel the F-35 as a jack of all traits master of none.
Isn’t part of the whole sale for the F-35 that on day one she goes in clean all internal for stealth Day-1 action, then once air defenses are degraded she loads external hard points jacks fuel into the bays and goes ole school bomb truck?
The idea is a F-35 can stand in for the F-16 and match payload etc.. however a F-16 cannot match F-35 on Day-1 penetration stealth. So until after the first few days of stealth and UCAV action all those legacy F-16′s and F-15E’s are basically expensive cruise missile carriers or bench warmers.
AMMO,
The A-10′s retirement is planned for 2028, not 2015.
Wake me up when the F-35 can spend 4 hours at 150 KIAS and 100′ AGL looking for bad guys.
Hell, if we want dedicated CAS birds, restarting the A-10 lines or clearing out all of the museum A-1s would be a good start. Since the zoomies only want stealthy deep-pen or air-superiority birds, that’ll never happen.
It’s about time to abrogate the 1962 deal that took the Army out of fixed-wing air and let them buy the organic air assets that best fit their needs. Something tells me they’d rehab every ‘Hog in the Boneyard and pay to have the line restarted/rebuilt.
Captain Ned,
Wake yourself up & join the 21st century! The F-35 isn’t meant to F-35 spend 4 hours at 150 KIAS and 100′ AGL looking for bad guys. That kind of flight profile is all but guaranteed to get you shot down (even if you are flying an A-10) vs modern air defences. And even if you aren’t fighting vs modern air defences, from altitude, the F-35 will be able to FIND bad guys better than much anything flying 150 KIAS and 100′ AGL (& covering a MUCH greater area while doing so).
How about this for CAS. F-35 armed with 8: ’250 lb’ SDB (internally + 2 AMRAAM) + 8: Hellfire/Brimstone + 38: (two 19 round pod) APKWS + 25mm gun pod…
In American service:
The F-35A should be viewed as a F-16 replacement, the F-35B should be viewed as an AV-8 replacement, and the F-35C should be viewed as an F/A-18A-D replacement.
Instead we are trying to have the F-35 series do way more than what it should be doing.
I’ll bet this thing is lousy at CAS. I mean, does it go slowly enough? Can it absorb enough damage?
i used to watch the a-10 come over graf and shoot i really liked having them on our side…this was back in the late 70′s and they are still as valuable today as they were then. we need to keep about 300 of them operational in reserve. you could cannibalise the hell out of all the others and it would be cheap and glorious firepower..ahhh
How could I get a hi-res version?
I like the F35. It’s a nice plane. It’s original intent was to replace a few planes, (Falcon, Harrier, Hornets) and I was ok with that, happy even. But now it seems they are trying to replace everything with an F35. Doesn’t anybody remember what happened last time we tried this? F-4 Phantom anyone? Not a BAD plane at all but… jack of all trades, master of none. And with respect to it’s CAS capabilities… i’m not questioning it’s ability to inflict damage. It can certainly do that. Probably close enough to the A-10 even without the big effin chaingun. It’s the survivability i’m worried about. Remember how messed up some of those A-10s got in OIF? No other plane could have taken that much damage. And remember, one bullet hole makes any stealth advantage disappear.
The bloody A10 is probably going to be the only bird around for a long time that is this good at what it does, frankly. Soooooo
Why doesn’t the military realize they have an aircraft they can just keep building on and improving with avionics and god-knows-what weapon loadouts that research is going to come out with over the next couple of decades. Case in point? The B-52. BUFFs have been flying forever, with periodic improvements, so why not the Hog?
ALL
Having spent time building and using F4s,F16c, AV8B, F18A-D, and last but not least F22, I would offer this.
1. We need a replacement aircraft for most of the above types, period.
2. Day 1 combat, over Europe or over the Coast of China will be thick with aircraft of ALL types, as these folks tend to keep every bird built. The above list of USA Birds, leading with the Falcon, and the Hornet, plus the Raptor will make mince meat of MOST but not all, on Day 1.
3. CAS, almost always a USAF after thought, nearly brought down the Raptor EMD effort. We had the gun, per USAF Requirements, but adding wing roots, additional avionics, nearly broke the budget. Finally, adding internals and kluging the avionics, IE: Cheating the systems, allowed for CAS. The Raptor is and was designed to deal with clouds of fighters.
4. In Nam the F4 did CAS for the USMC. Also, a host of USN A1 Sky raiders off small deck CVs. This bird is indeed an awesome sight, but it has short legs, and needs a LOT of Maintenance after flight. Mainly cause it takes lots of holes to be repaired. The Wart Hog, a truly awesome bird, is pure CAS and probably the best.
Finally, the Venerable F111, old McNamara’s nemeis should be the example of How Not to build a multi use bird. Seems LM has learned that lesson well.
end
Semper Fi
Random thoughts/replies:
IIRC the machining for the A-10 and B-52 have long since been destroyed. Creating more of these would thus involve a lot more than warming up the assembly lines again, to the point where you might as well design a new airframe.
The B-52′s longevity stems partially from its flight profile. It spends most of its hours in the high stratosphere, above the weather, so there is little wear on the airframe. The A-10 is built very ruggedly, but I’d still expect them to wear out sooner than the B-52s.
The F-35 isn’t meant to do CAS at all, and so it doesn’t need anything like the toughness that the A-10 has. Making the F-35 do CAS would be almost as stupid as making the A-10 do high-altitude deep strike against modern air defenses. USAF does have an unaddressed need for a CAS vehicle to replace the A-10, but given that branch’s disdain for the job, it’s probably for the best that SOCOM may procure Super Tucanos and do it themselves.
I see than Captain Ned is not the only one who needs to join the 21st century…
Like it or not, CAS is now done by dropping guided munitions from 20,000′+. Deal with it.
pfcem-
That’s not CAS, that’s using a jet as ~$100mil SP artillery. CAS means a lot more than 9-line, but neither you nor USAF get that, apparently.
mike j,
It is YOU who does not get it.
Modern air defenses makes your antiquated idea of CAS a no-win game.
And the systems on the F-35 make it such that it can locate, identify & engage ground targets more effectively, more quickly & MUCH safer from 20,000+’ than an A-10 can flying ‘low & slow’.
yeah yeah yeah…
modern air defenses…
You mean the ones that aren’t anywhere near any of the places we’ve been fighting in about two decades? Anyway, that measure/ countermeasure game never quits, so why worry?
Don’t tell me what something can do til it does it. New high tech crap hasn’t made war any easier yet.
We’ve ignored and forgotten so much hard-gained knowledge, and it’s definitely gotten people unnecessarily killed.
According to one of the UK’s Aviation magazines that was published this week, the UK is going to split it’s purchases of the F-35 between the F-35C for the Fleet Air Arm for use on our new carriers, and the F-35B for the RAF to replace the Harrier GR.9. The reasons they give is that the F-35C is 20% cheaper and has less technical problems assoicated with the design. The good thing about this is that we will have a proper carrier at last instead of these half a job harrys we were building. Bad news is that this idiotic government is still buying the flawed F-35. Add in the problems with the F-135 engine, the pork belly choice of the US Congress and we have a disaster in the making?
The UK would be better have cancelling the F-35, buying either the Rafele of the F/A-18E for the Navy and building a 3rd Generation Harrier for the RAF along with buying the Super Tucano Light Strike Aircraft.
“building a 3rd Generation Harrier for the RAF “…
No, F-35 is superior to Harrier. Faster, stealthier, better range/payload performance.
Furthermore, the close-2-bankrupt UK cannot afford to fund the RnD of an all-new jet fighter by itself.
Its not stealth at all with things hanging on the wings. i cannot understand why we tossed all the eggs in to a basket that is totally unproven.
Some folks have missed some points about the F-35:
1) It's stealthy.
2) It's VTOL – in other words, it can creep slowly "through the weeds", just like a helo or an AV-8.
My only 2 questions would be:
1) Does the 25mm gun do as good a job on tanks as the GAU-8?
2) Is the F-35 as tough as the A-10?
If the answers to those 2 questions are "yes", then the F-35 will be a great CAS bird. If either one is "No", then we need to think about reopening the A-10 production line.
End of Story…
1 bullet in the ultra f35 and its gone the days of air to air combat are just about gone. When was the last time we had a air to air war with alot of acft???? Sure the F35 looks cool and does alot of cool things but can it hang over a battle field shooting up tanks/people /equipment and take all kinds of rounds throught it get home fix it and send it back out. Can the F35 and build new A10s.