We posted a pretty interesting video over at DoD Buzz yesterday that I wanted to bring to your attention.
It’s fairly detailed look at a Predator/Reaper strike simulated by what looks like company officials, though I’d bet this is what a CIA strike might look like.
The video is both fascinating and at the same time disturbing.
For one, it’s amazing the control and detailed view available to the “pilot” and “sensor.” It just blows me away that two people can control several drones from an air conditioned trailer 2,000 miles away — or 100 miles away. The ability for the operators to distinguish targets, coordinate with controllers in theater and speak with spotters on the ground is just surreal and a real testament to America’s technical capabilities and adaptation.
Of course, the video is also creepy in the almost clinical way in which the pilot and sensor deliver their lethal blow. Calm, collected — and totally detached from any impact of what they’ve done. It’s one thing to launch doomsday out of a Minuteman missile tube — talk about detachment! …it’s another to launch a missile at a pickup truck you’ve never seen with your own eyes and have no real sense of the impact of that death on your daily life. A pilot returning to an air base safer because there’s one less SVBID on the road has more of a sense of his strike’s impact than the contractor in the trailer at Langley.
This is clearly the way aerial warfare is going — I get it. But it’s going to raise many ethical dilemmas along the way.
– Christian
{ 80 comments… read them below or add one }
It is clearly amazing that we can coordinate and execute such a complex approach to taking out targets. It truly demonstrates the military advantage of “higher ground.” I suspect ethically (whatever that might be nowadays) we will ignore and move forward in the sake of keeping the grunts safe on the ground. Of course, this bodes well for the playstation generations’ skill prep for 21st century warfare. I wonder if these pilots get call signs?
The incorrect radio terminology they use irritates me. “Roger Wilco”? Copy? You don’t use Roger and Wilco together and Roger should be used instead of Copy. Unprofessional.
They are perfectly clear on what they are saying. How pilots use the terminology is irrelivant
Hi (a Pilot) Yes it is relevant. Pilot jargon is essential in communicating effectively and independent of any transmissions no aviation related that may interrupt.
And nobody says copy in aviation or roger wilco. Roger and just roger means "understood." Affirmative means "yes."
Damn, my kid could really clean up over there with his X-Box controls and a Reaper. Moral Questions? 4 Real? Uh, is it ok for THEM to hack a guy’s head off and send it to You Tube? The Defense rests.
Yes yes yes! Thank you for stating exactly what I was screaming in my head when I read this warm fuzzy ethical drivel. Guess if ole Christian was ever pinned down by oh let's say 100 bad guys, his pals are getting smoked and suddenly Thor's Hammer/Reaper missiles rain from heaven saving his bobo…you think he might change his ACLU ethical outlook on this? Me thinks yes.
You ever been in combat?
This disturbing sense of detachment from the grisly effects of remote-control warfare was captured extremely level by the video game Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare, which contained a scenario where the player worked the guns on an AC-130. The matter-of-fact radio chatter, the black-and-white distant view of the enemy through a night vision scope, and the complete lack of threats to the player during the mission were very effective.
That isn’t a real Predator GCS – maybe a simulation of a future concept ?
It is only that ‘sterile’ in a simulation environment. When a real mission is underway, there’s nothing sterile or detachedand uninvolved about it.
The ‘Glam’ factor of the room shown probably lends to the creepy feel in the video, and is pretty typical for customer demo installations/rooms.
I dont see any ethical dilemma. Does anyone see any?
Nope. In fact these people have more eye on the target time than a pilot in a fast mover.
“The incorrect radio terminology they use irritates me. “Roger Wilco”? Copy? You don’t use Roger and Wilco together and Roger should be used instead of Copy. Unprofessional.”
Really? You see that video, and the best you can get out of it is that they used roger instead of copy? Can I tell you a secret? Come here. No, closer. NOBODY CARES!
Funny that it looks like they use the same thrustmaster cougar joysticks I use at home to fly my simulators. I hope they have better software drivers than I do… they lock up sometimes. I wonder what happens if they get a blue screen of death at a critical point during a mission.
Ehh. I dont agree with that synopsis. I’d be FAR more worried about on the ground person to person combat detachment to killing.
Your job is to control a drone to blow up a target being fed to you by intelligence. You dont have a choice or an alternative if you are 2000 miles away or inside a fighter or copter in person shooting at a target.
You cannot see inside the vehicle to see if its a wedding party, a van load of kids, or 3 terrorists driving to a secret location. You only know what you are told through intelligence and hope its correct.
As for the room, its isolated in the movie for focus. In reality its a tight closed in trailer full of technology and Military/CIA operatives.
Hopefully not blackwater.
Outstanding system.
Thank God.
“Of course, the video is also creepy in the almost clinical way in which the pilot and sensor deliver their lethal blow. Calm, collected — and totally detached from any impact of what they’ve done.”
Is it really that different from any military operation? Most soldiers I know get a clinical way about them. It’s necessary to do the job.
It’s not different than that of a sniper, and as such it’s a job to be done professionally in a theatre of war. If there is an ethical dilemma, it involves whether you make very effort to shoot carefully at what your targeting and minimize collateral damage as much as you can.
It must be difficult to get up and commute home when engaging the enemy from a location in the US. At least in the field you have the psychological support of being in a war zone with other warfighters around.
I agree with Roland build thousands and then add DEW and hypersonics, unbeatable. USA USA USA USA!!
“USA USA USA”…
It’s a war, not a football match. People die, some who should and a lot who shouldn’t. There should never be joy in doing a regrettable job well. Just professionalism, to do it right and go home with honor.
Shouting “USA USA USA” for a wartime kill is neither professional nor honorable, and doesn’t respect those who have to make the decision to pull the trigger, whether onsite or 7000 miles away.
This isn’t a Predator Control system. This is a simulation/advertisement for a Raytheon Universal Control System (RUCS). I saw this when I worked there (Raytheon Falls Church) and more recently at AUVSI’s Unmanned Systems North America last week in DC. There are eleven Alienware PC’s in each of those RUCS.
Speaking of AUVSI, for being “DefenseTech” there certainly wasn’t much coverage of littany of defense technology on display at AUVSI. Qinetiq had weaponized UGVs (MARRS TALON), NGC had a Firescout, a Killer Bee, There were remote control mini-copters (DraganFly’s), Remote-control mini-submarines, Unmanned Hummers, Demonstrations of capabilities begin developed such as launching UAVs from Submarines, All sorts of Radio Technologies, video technologies. It was nerd heaven, like kids in a candy shop. But no coverage by DefenseTech?
Hey!!! Right on target there dude.
Hey Terry lighten up! I am talking about the technology not the “killing” you doofus.
But besides that I have no problem “cheering” for the good guys. They have to defend guys like you who find it difficult to hold a weapon while “handwringing”
Whoa is that an off the gaming shelf Cougar HOTAS their using for the controls?
http://www.thrustmaster.com/product.aspx?ProductID=11&PlatformID=5
That’s the same one I use for my flight sim flying….
Small world.
Whenever I contemplate drones I think about the pilots that would have been sent to intercept bombers in the event of a nuclear war. They would be sent to intercept whether they had fuel to return or not. In the near future this will no longer be an issue. Swarms of drones with no loss of pilots.
If the last half century of warfare has taught us anything, it’s that putting an enemy in a situation from which they can’t fight conventionally will only “allow” them to break the rules and resort to tactics like terrorism.
I think an unkillable robot army is vastly short sighted as it takes away all options for traditional recourse.
Killing Taliban in a pickup truck with a missile is an “ethical dilemma” for you?
Oh puh-leeze. Maybe you should get into another line of work.
I don’t see ethically how it’s distinguished from the old days of 8th Army Air Force dropping bombs on a ball-bearing factory and watching the bombs splash all over a rural countryside, or attempting to nail a precision target near a city and hitting civilian buildings. While the enemy can “hit you back”, it doesn’t change the ethics or the detachment.
From an attritional standpoint, it’s better when they can’t hit you back…
Don’t know squat about Predator control systems, so whether or not it’s a mockup or a fake with model actors is a possibility (and it would explain their incorrect usage of terminology).
I hope one day cityzens of USA experience WAR at home, in their own cities, in their own life, then it will maybe change the way they see the world… till then… they can kill kill kill..
One thing I do remember from studying about our own civil war is that its a hell of a lot better to fight on your enemy's ground than your own.
Stalingrad!!! The average Russian citizen 70 years and older probably actually fought to defend the homeland. Over 35 million were Russian losses. I hope us Americans never have to experiance horror but we should pay more attention to history.
Comment to Jean-Louis who wrote: “I hope one day cityzens of USA experience WAR at home, in their own cities, in their own life…”
Hey, do you remember some 9/11???
Cr
Stalingrad!!! Pearl Harbor!!!
@Marc :
That’s the problem, you made wars all around the world by pretending defend yourself.
Remind that war isnt a game.
You told about the 9/11 … 3000 death ?!
How many civilian people died in Irak ? In Afganistan ? There are so much (more than 100 a day since 2001) authorities dont made the count.
And finally to get what ? Nothing …
C’
remember Saddam? yeah, the dead one. That's not "nothing".
Maybe if they stopped killing each othet there would not be this death toll. The USA did not create this internal hatred. Wake up and smell the coffee. It is muslem againt muslem. You guy's just can't seem to take responsibility for your actions. It is always somebody elses fault.
Thank you for all this time and money spent on killing people.
Mankind is progressing thanks to you… towards its own destruction.
Ok, ok, autant pour moi, je me suis emball
@Jean-Louis & @KoV
(comment below)
Completely useless against decentralized army of small groups and information war, namely the terrorists. If the ennemy is striking you at home also. The only reaction is to convert your whole people to fachism in order to lock up all the communications on your territory and spying everyone, which is exactly what the terrorists want, to propagate irrational fear inside the democracies and indirectly attack our liberties.
Secondly it is also impossible to engage a nuclear equipped country, unless you want to test their harmful capacity against your own cities.
Very poor concept in fact.
A group of Americans, retired teachers, recently went to France on a tour. Robert Whiting, an elderly gentleman of 83, arrived in Paris by plane. At French Customs, he took a few minutes to locate his passport in his carry on.
Bonjour c tous!
Il est
to Mike:
So because of WWII, French are not allowed to criticize American policy?
Then there was a conference in France where a number of international engineers were taking part, including French and American. During a break one of the French engineers came back into the room saying,
When in England at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by
the Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example
of
BTW, I don’t understand french…..
or the language
To Mike:
If you don’t understand then don’t try to say anything relevant here.
Well Frenchie, actions speak louder than words, and after all, we both have helped each other out during the course of history. You can bark all you want, but the fact is ur a 2nd rate military power, and you act, talk like a super power. Put ur money where ur mouth is. Seems like you do more complaining than anything.
The topic of the talk is not about if France is a military power or not, and where have you seen that France is talking like a super power? France is a 2nd rate military power, yes, but it doesn’t exclude French people to talk about war. It doesn’t give “you” (I mean you, not your country or government) more rights to talk about it.
I don’t really care about these talks, but I get really upset when a discussion between French and American about war ends with “we saved you during WW2 so STFU”.
I didn’t mean to say anything bad here. I am French, I live in the UK, and I am tired of being called a “surrender monkey” because France lost WW2. I am tired of being judged because of French history or France lack military power.
Back to the topic,
As long as the weapon is used with discretion I only see this as a better way to get to the leadership of the opposition. As they say, cut off it’s head and it will run around without direction.
Why send in humans bodies when you can send in a machine. As far as ethics are concerned just think if we were able to take out Hitler with this method. Would that have been unethical?
Nothing unethical so far for me, as long as civilian life are spared :)
@Mike
it is not because you are incapable of engaging into the intercultural process of talking, named diplomacy, that you are always obliged to rely on war.
And for the anti-french speech, yes I know that rethoric, it had not been the case when French troops and La Fayette made your country possible out of the British crown power. And we should not forget also about the sacrifices of the communists and russians soldiers who kept occupied the major part of the German army during WWII. Without them, a D-day operation would have been completely impossible.
I suggest you should study History first, and other cultures as well, for the moment before talking. Because it is quite evident that you are not an intellectual nor a cultural superpower yourself among your fellow humans. ;-)
STFU.
San-A you get called “Surrender monkeys” because when the Germans rolled through (as a blood enemy of France) estimates were that less than 3% of the French population made any attempt to resist. During the occupation millions of French citizens collaborated with the Nazis to send their Jewish neighbors into slavery and death all while claiming innocence.
Do not pull the “righteous European” argument with us. Cowardice is remembered always, certainly we (who saved your country twice) remember.
Agreed. My mother was an identical twin and toddler living in Greece, at the start of WWII.
Damn present day UN titty milk orphans piss me off to no end!
For all we know it could be a neighbor and his wife living next door flying?Its a good thing we are the good guys.But when they are finished they can have coffee no bodies to look at.’Die Hard”Remember when hearing the mocking bird whistle in the morning,or other little creatures,they could be guarding youre home!From eviletc.One thing i cannot figure out why havent we not captured Bin Laden?or is he guarded ??
I’m sure that “surrender monkey” is a euphemism used for commando speak to drum up the little devil inside that harks to keep the innocent safe. Okay, maybe they aren’t always the good guys per se, but it takes a special kind of person to be in the US Military. Step away from the keyboard and stop playing video games, trying to be a diplomat, writer of Foreign Policy or anything else associated with the function of real active-duty military. I’m not too keen about the Guard/Reserve=mercenaries, but they have historically been more effective against those who don’t wear a uniform associated with any government (thugs). Aside from the old people in NYC who beat up the gangstas with their umbrella’s.
The point can be made that the elderly WWII veteran couldn’t have behaved like he did, if he was a drone. In the light of some US posters’ s errr… posts here, one can assume there are now WRITING drones sent away. Mike yr arguments shall soon get rusty!
It’s almost fascinating. Whatever the subject, there will always be one retarded monkey to bring up World War II again. Obviously you do have understood the “War” part but you still seem a bit confused about the “World” part, don’t you?
Do you realise that without the see, the UK would have been wiped out as well? But are you able to locate the UK on a map anyway? Do you realise the importance of Russia in the war? But, oh my god, they were communists, let’s not talk about that, it’s so scary! I suggest you open a bloody book and start reading about WWII. If you actually know how to read a book, you might learn things.
Amazingly enough, when it comes to showing off, I see none of you oh-so-proud yanks speaking about Vietnam.
Oh, and without the surrending monkeys, you’d be British. I do think it’s fair enough. So that’s it, you’ve helped to save Europe, especially France, during WWII. You’ve been thanked for that. France has helped you to simply exist. So fantastic, everybody has helped each other. Isn’t that just great? Now Mike and all the World-War-Two-ish crowd, I suggest you stop using WWII as an excuse to your rude, brainless, ridiculous behaviour.
Cheers.
I always find it funny how stereotypes are carefully carried by simple minded persons. Yep, France lost the war against Germany in three weeks but they didn’t give the key to the country. More than 175,000 French men died trying to defend the coutry. How many US casualties during the Vietnam war? Seriously, most countries couldn’t fight against the Blitzkrieg. I’m sure French people aren’t found of being mocked while many people died during the occupation. This is of course something that can’t be understood if your country has never been invaded during your lifetime. Now denying people respect for mistakes/failures which took place more than fifty years ago is quite ridiculous :)
My grand father was 20 and soldier in 1940, he had a 1914 rifle with 10 cartridges and a hand grenade. His friend were killed by a tank. He jumped in a river and the tank was unable to shoot him (too low). Yes, he had to surrender in front of the german tanks, then he spend 5 years as a prisonner.
French army killed a lot of german and more than 100000 french soldiers died to allow british army to escape on their island. The english planes that did not fight in France save England from invasion. English army would not have been able to fight the German on the ground.
European countries surrendered to Napol
My grandfather was a German soldier during WWII. My mother saw Hitler in person when she was 7 years old. She was a German citizen at the time.
I was born in the US. I love the world…. every bit of it. War sucks.
Some here speak of “talking” to enemies to avoid war. Understood but not always effective. Sometimes we talk for years but all it does is allow the problem to get harder to resolve. Look at NK and Iran. When are the Europeans going to deal with these people? Go talk to them please and explain how we don’t want them to threaten peace. Go ask them to be nice would you please?
Guerilla FTW :D
You can have a massive firepower capable of blowing Earth hundreds time, without brains, strategies and politics, you’re doomed, epic fail incoming :D
(Last note)
About all the bullshit about french being coward and stuff :
To french : don’t listen to them, just laught at it.
To US/UK kids : keep thinking french were cowards, same with south-vietnamese, korean, japanese, irakian, afghan, etc… You can’t understand what is having a war on his own territory, why even trying ?
9/11 ? it was not a war, just a terrorist attack, like many countries deal with every year.
About “collabo”, french helping the nazi, keep in mind there was some nazis in USA, a lot of US people were against jews, some nazis were protect by USA after WW2 (some of them hidden in south america). USA decided to attack Hitler only when they saw that Hitler was going to pwn them if he got all Europe, and it was not Hitler, it would have been Staline pwning Europe.
Talking about cowards, USA waited the last moment to enter in the war and never dropped ammo/weapons/antitank for Spanish resistance nor French resistance (only few British Sten and TNT)… When British and French Foreign Army were in Africa fighting Rommel (not really a newb FYI), US was waiting like a coward…
That chick in the video’s totally hot. Paste, can you get me a date?
It’s 2009, not 1945.
This topic is full of stupid and useless commentaries, it’s hard to believe, but even more than mine.
I hope they will recruit amongst the best guilds in world of warcaft players. It will be the same, “focus the godamn terrorist”, “I need assist”, there will be only a lack of Healers.
The more detachment we create between the act and the death, the easier it will for us to kill.
Think about it.
Roger Wilco means I heard you and I will comply.
'…disturbing sense of detachment …'
well, is that any different than a 300 meter kill
with a squad machine gun?
do our soldiers have to have their
fingers around the enemys necks to
keep this from being disturbing?
i have a good sense that the military people who have
served to keep 'ya all' free, don;t think war is a game.
they know the bottom line.
if you think freedom is nothing, what do you think
is something?
Dont' you think that terrorists will soon have those toys too ?
For one you'll kill, how many will want to revenge ?
If anyway they have nothing to loose living in poverty under bombs, they will revenge.
.
one thing to stop all of this is to give them help and money – just a ridiculous part of the astronomics budget you invest in thoses weapons, that will get back on you.
.
but the lobby of weapons leads the world – dividing us to shut our voices.
.
or eslse explain me why no one want war but there is war everywhere ?…
pierre from france
Pentagon and weapons dealer are so good at making their marketing! They use now both Holywood and the internet…
USA hasn't won a war for a long time because they still see the world in black and white. Ah, this great idea of the Axis of Evil"!
How better intoxicate candid people such as Marc who see the world only on Fox News.
World is complex, rich and wide. Go and see for yourself before trusting what the Pentagon or or your TV is showing you. And, then only then, maybe you will understand the stupidity of these Joysticks and others so called demonstration of American supremacy in technology. The only thing they have succeeded , was to make some Texas guys richer, have more than half of the world population hating USA, and have Bin Laden laughing when he sees everyone striped when getting on a plane. 9/11 terrorists didn't use any bomb, remember?
The only way to fight terrorism is to fight the cause of it: poverty, ignorance, disease, hunger..
Some American people such as Bill Gates or hopefully your actual president, have understood this and I would encourage you all to go on http://www.ted.com and listen to them (good example is http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/bill_gates_unpl…
Do you know for example that what the FAO (United Nations Development Program) than only 30 billions$ would be necessary to stop the entire world from malnutrition for ever? (have a look at http://www.stopthehunger.com/). The United Nations Development Program estimates that the basic health and nutrition needs of the world's poorest people could be met for an additional $13 billion a year. Animal lovers in the United States and Europe spend more than that on pet food each year.
Cost of Iraq war by itself has been 700 billions! Afghanistan 236!
Think about it, you can eradicate hunger in the world for 5% of this year US military budget ($663 billions)
And I can assure you that this would be much more efficient than thousands of “predators” to keep your children safe…
So next time before voting for people that keep on scaring you with so called outside Terror in order to better manage you, think twice. Fear is your worst enemy and carrying a gun wont take it away. America needs to grow up from a teen ager nation worshiping the cow boys and Schwartzy and show the world its true value of humanism and tolerance. Raise up citizens, and give the world a big hug, it will be more efficient than playing with gadgets such as this Predator. What a great name by the way, it shows the level of maturity of its inventors.
Big kisses to all
Pierre
Pentagon and weapons dealer are so good at making their marketing! They use now both Holywood and the internet…
USA hasn't won a war for a long time because they still see the world in black and white. Ah, this great idea of the Axis of Evil"!
How better intoxicate candid people such as Marc who see the world only on Fox News.
World is complex, rich and wide. Go and see for yourself before trusting what the Pentagon or or your TV is showing you. And, then only then, maybe you will understand the stupidity of these Joysticks and others so called demonstration of American supremacy in technology. The only thing they have succeeded , was to make some Texas guys richer, have more than half of the world population hating USA, and have Bin Laden laughing when he sees everyone striped when getting on a plane. 9/11 terrorists didn't use any bomb, remember?
The only way to fight terrorism is to fight the cause of it: poverty, ignorance, disease, hunger..
Some American people such as Bill Gates or hopefully your actual president, have understood this and I would encourage you all to go on <a href="http://www.ted.com” target=”_blank”>www.ted.com and listen to them (good example is http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/bill_gates_unpl…
Do you know for example that what the FAO (United Nations Development Program) than only 30 billions$ would be necessary to stop the entire world from malnutrition for ever? (have a look at http://www.stopthehunger.com/). The United Nations Development Program estimates that the basic health and nutrition needs of the world's poorest people could be met for an additional $13 billion a year. Animal lovers in the United States and Europe spend more than that on pet food each year.
Cost of Iraq war by itself has been 700 billions! Afghanistan 236!
Think about it, you can eradicate hunger in the world for 5% of this year US military budget ($663 billions)
And I can assure you that this would be much more efficient than thousands of “predators” to keep your children safe…
So next time before voting for people that keep on scaring you with so called outside Terror in order to better manage you, think twice. Fear is your worst enemy and carrying a gun wont take it away. America needs to grow up from a teen ager nation worshiping the cow boys and Schwartzy and show the world its true value of humanism and tolerance. Raise up citizens, and give the world a big hug, it will be more efficient than playing with gadgets such as this Predator. What a great name by the way, it shows the level of maturity of its inventors.
Big kisses to all
Pierre
The only way to fight terrorism is to fight the cause of it: poverty, ignorance, disease, hunger..
Some American people such as Bill Gates or hopefully your actual president, have understood this and I would encourage you all to go on <a href="http://www.ted.com” target=”_blank”>www.ted.com and listen to them (good example is http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/bill_gates_unpl…
Do you know for example that what the FAO (United Nations Development Program) than only 30 billions$ would be necessary to stop the entire world from malnutrition for ever? (have a look at http://www.stopthehunger.com/). The United Nations Development Program estimates that the basic health and nutrition needs of the world's poorest people could be met for an additional $13 billion a year. Animal lovers in the United States and Europe spend more than that on pet food each year.
Cost of Iraq war by itself has been 700 billions! Afghanistan 236!
Think about it, you can eradicate hunger in the world for 5% of this year US military budget ($663 billions)
And I can assure you that this would be much more efficient than thousands of “predators” to keep your children safe…
So next time before voting for people that keep on scaring you with so called outside Terror in order to better manage you, think twice. Fear is your worst enemy and carrying a gun wont take it away. America needs to grow up from a teen ager nation worshiping the cow boys and Schwartzy and show the world its true value of humanism and tolerance. Raise up citizens, and give the world a big hug, it will be more efficient than playing with gadgets such as this Predator. What a great name by the way, it shows the level of maturity of its inventors.
Big kisses to all
Pierre
It's war and when all the civilised rhetoric fades to black it's about killing the enemy in as vast a number in the shortest possible time withe the fewest causualties, or did I miss something? I mean, it's a great American military tradition, shoot first, and ask all the questions you like afterwards.
this looks way fake. cia operators wouldn't allow themselves to be filmed, and air force operators would be wearing green flight suits. and civilian contractors do not operate armed drones.
not to say that a real drone strike wouldn't look just like this, but i'm just saying.
yeah, so i just realized that the whole thing is just a simulation by company officials, like it says in the first line of the article…
i'm retarded. please disregard my previous comment.