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Russian Defense Industry in Crisis

by Ward Carroll on September 10, 2009

Russian defense shot.jpg

The Russian defense industry may not have long to survive. Long the provider of massive amounts of weapons to the Soviet armed forces and those of satellite nations and much of the Third World, today some experts believe that only a massive infusion of funds from the Russian government can save the industry.

Further, the best showcase for new Russian aerospace products has fizzled. Writing for the Military Periscope online database, Russian expert Reuben F. Johnson reported on the recent Russian aerospace exhibit (MAKS 2009) in the Moscow suburb of Zhukovsky:

The ever-multiplying layers of security and clearance procedures that the Russian government now requires of its contractors helped to generate a largely disappointing event. Various Russian industry representatives had been talking for six months or more about 20 new
weapon systems and other innovations that would appear at MAKS.

None saw the light of day.


For more than a decade the MAKS exhibit had been the prime “selling tool” of the Russian aerospace industry.

Johnson also wrote,

Not being allowed to show its wares is but the latest problem for the Russian aerospace industry, which already suffers from shrinking order books and escalating unhappiness among its largest long-time customers, such as India. The aerospace show has become, as one [Russian] correspondent put it, a manifestation of “very big hopes against a background of insolvable problems.”

The aerospace industry issuesas well as those of the Russian shipbuilding industryare further complicated by the Russian government’s lack of control or even influence over various component suppliers who are located in independent countries that were part of the Soviet Union prior to December 1991. These firms now “march to their own tune,” taking orders for products more profitable than making components for Russian weapon systems.

The Russian shipbuilding and naval weapon industries are experiencing similar problems. As a result, the Russian delivery of ships and naval systems has been noticeably late, over cost, and at times without key components. The most significant example has been the ex-Soviet aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, which was sold to India in January 2004. The ship was essentially “given” to India, which then committed about $700 million to the Russian government to modernize and refit the carrier. The shiprenamed Vikramadityawas to have been delivered about 2008; more likely the carrier will be delivered about 2012 at about double the previously estimated cost.

The carrier situation was further illustrated by Johnson in a telephone conversation from Kiev as he told this writer that the situation in Russia is rapidly deteriorating. Whereas aircraft carriers up to 55,000 tons full load were built in the Soviet Union (at Nikolayev, now in the Ukraine), with a nuclear-propelled carrier to displace 75,000 tons having been started, Russia is now considering the construction of a smaller carrier in collaboration with France.

There is also a psychological aspect to the Russias defense industry problems: The world has learned that the Russian Bulava submarine-launched ballistic missile, a very high priority program, is a development disaster, while the Russian-built nuclear submarine K-152/Nerpa, on trials before transfer to India, suffered an accident that killed more than 20 persons and injured others. These revelations must hurt potential Russian weapon sales.

The Russian defense industry will survive. But the drying up of foreign ordersin part because of more aggressive U.S. weapon sales in the Third World market since the end of the Cold Warcoupled with the small size of the post-Soviet era armed forces means that it can no longer be considered a major factor in the measurement of Russian military power.

– Norman Polmar

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{ 55 comments… read them below or add one }

flying fart proudly joyned September 10, 2009 at 4:36 pm

i for my part welcome Russian Federation in NATO.
–in part because of more aggressive U.S. weapon sales in the Third World market since the end of the Cold War—
yellow overlords anyone?

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elgatoso September 10, 2009 at 5:44 pm

You are not tired of talk bs,flying fart proudly joyned???????

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Camp September 10, 2009 at 6:06 pm

I wonder what the cost comparisons would be. If one were to examine India’s refit of the Vikramaaditya, vs. China’s refit of the Varyag. Not to mention the expected capabilities of each.

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Tim September 10, 2009 at 7:20 pm

so what of the new Russian fighters? export sales only then? What ever happened to the su-47?

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Doz September 10, 2009 at 7:30 pm

* I’m not aware of any evidence whatsoever that Russian defence orders are “drying up”.
* No evidence for ‘rapid deterioration’ is presented. Indeed, the one example after this claim is made is Russia possibly building an aircraft carrier with France because Nikolayev is in Ukraine now. Except that’s been the case for the last 18 years. Wouldn’t one think that contemplating the construction of a new aircraft carrier (and making preparations for same, actually) after 18 years of having no capability in that regard whatsoever was anything *other* than a deterioration?
* No evidence is presented that the unfortunate accident on the Nerpa during trial runs has hurt weapons sales. Same with the Bulava SLBM (which is not a weapon for export anyway)

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elgatoso September 10, 2009 at 7:58 pm

su-47was a technology demonstration,not a final product.The sole aircraft produced was an advanced technology demonstrator prototype of 5th generation Jet fighters.

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Valcan September 10, 2009 at 9:37 pm

While i wouldnt say there deteriorating the big name stuff is failing bad and scaring buyers away.
Same with the Bulava SLBM (which is not a weapon for export anyway)
Posted by: Doz at September 10, 2009 07:30 PM
Well lets see can we count failing test after test after test?
Russia is having the same problems it has for decades shoddy workmanship, corruption, etc. The legacy of the communist system. Its like a rot you cant get rid of.
The russian government has SERIOUS problems to deal with the bad thing. Its government controlled….wait its russia its all government controlled.

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flying fart proudly joyned September 10, 2009 at 10:25 pm

su-47was a technology demonstration,not a final product.The sole aircraft produced was an advanced technology demonstrator prototype of 5th generation Jet fighters.—
it wasnt.
—Well lets see can we count failing test after test after test?–
why are you sure about?
—Just sell your latest russian weaponry to the United States. It will help you grow your GNP.–
i for my part welcome Russian Federation in NATO!

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Doz September 11, 2009 at 12:15 am

“Russia is having the same problems it has for decades shoddy workmanship, corruption, etc. The legacy of the communist system. Its like a rot you cant get rid of.”
I doubt they’re a particularly communist problem. The Tsarist system was likely no better. In any event, it’s actually the *absence* of the communist system causing problems with Bulava. A top missile designer was recently interviewed who stated that the problem was that not enough testing has been done and the stringent military oversight of the production plants to make sure quality control was being maintained wasn’t being done.
Given how embarassing Bulava has been, one can only imagine they’re scrambling to fix it. It’s not like it’s a program that can be allowed to fail, after all.

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Rhyno327 September 11, 2009 at 4:01 am

LET THEM EAT CAKE!!!

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beasheanna jackson February 18, 2013 at 1:46 pm

fried frozen tundra nano bytes that transform into damn those americans friends in the heavens

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pedestrian September 11, 2009 at 4:33 am

>i for my part welcome Russian Federation in NATO.
It smells like a beginning of a NATO-Russia alliance vs China. I just wish the dirty ChiNazis to cease to exist.

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Jon Donnatli September 11, 2009 at 3:37 am

“Russia is having the same problems it has for decades shoddy workmanship, corruption, etc. The legacy of the communist system. Its like a rot you cant get rid of.”
The ‘Communist’ system (you probably mean the previous authoritarian regime) created the most successful arms export industries in the world. The ‘cold war’ weapon systems they had developed were formidable. Their nuclear arsenal alone could have destroyed the planet many times over.
The ‘Communist’ war machine fell to peices (poor quality, inefficient, etc…) after Russia became ‘capitalist’.

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Roger Last September 11, 2009 at 4:05 am

“Russia is having the same problems it has for decades shoddy workmanship, corruption, etc. The legacy of the communist system. Its like a rot you cant get rid of.”
The Soviet Union’s weaponry out classed the West’s for decades. Even in space tech – by the 1970s The USSR had three fully armed, manned, military space stations in orbit (‘Almaz’).

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Oblat September 11, 2009 at 4:55 am

The background to this story of course is that the US wants to sell India F18s and is competing against the Russians so Defense Tech has been told by his masters to spread the word.
While the Indians have complained about the Russians recently, they are in for a whole new level of late, expensive and useless if they let US defense contractors get their hooks into them.

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Ed September 11, 2009 at 7:00 am

I think the problem is the lack of support to the customer after the sale. In the Soviet era, they used to send advisers along to train the customer on how to use the systems. Now they are not getting the same level of support that they used to receive from Russia. India for its part is going with Western Firms more for the fact that they got tired of the slow speed in getting spare parts from Russia.
They used to also have China as a customer. That did take a huge bite out of their profits. When you sell everything from ships, to, tanks, and even combat aircraft, you tend to have a good customer. Let us also not forget that they also lost Iraq as a customer. Even during the end days of the Hussein regime, they were still customers of russian equipment. Now they want all American equipment, from M1A2 tanks, to vehicles, to Assault Rifles, and even F-16 fighter aircraft.
Let us also not forget Egypt who has pretty much gone to being a US customer with tanks, choppers, and combat aircraft as well.
Quality and not quantity is the issue the Russians are now having. If they increased their quality, they would have a better reputation with their customers.

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Tony Conner September 11, 2009 at 7:05 am

The Russian defense industry is suffering from neglect. This is what happens when an industry is dependent upon only one customer. If you think this is bad, wait until the US government controls everything in the US (defense, automobile, health care). The US industries will suffer the same fate.

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Mike September 11, 2009 at 7:54 am

Anybody remember the pictures of the Buron spacecraft in a hanger… the roof was caving in on it from neglect. The Chernobyl disaster and how it was handled. The US has it’s problems too…. the Katrina response for example. I just don’t think Russia is making the necessary changes to improve the countries capabilities. Imagine the complete collapse of that country? We never thought General Motors would ever go bankrupt.

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flying fart proudly joyned September 11, 2009 at 8:27 am

General Motors would ever go bankrupt.—
..and now they sell european part to russian-canadian company. aside that i cant immagine american politicans living without money from russian oligarchs. so if USA will prove the world that it cares about the future of this world it have to let them into NATO and make russians to good friends. not doing this means we will welcome our yellow overlords after 2-3 decades.

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bdwilcox September 11, 2009 at 2:09 pm

From the looks of that missile and launcher, Russia could make a tidy sum manufacturing and selling “marital aids”.

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Valcan September 11, 2009 at 3:32 pm

Its a gift for the newest 300 ft tall japanese robot mech.

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Fraz September 11, 2009 at 3:49 pm

The Russians did indeed have an amazing military industrial complex. It’s pretty easy when you don’t need to pay your engineers much, get all your parts from companies that you own, and believe in volume over quality. Other than WWII era tanks (arguable the best of their time), has there ever been a time when, one-for-one, the Russian complex created a superior weapon system? SAMs and personal firearms, perhaps. They have always believed that size is their greatest resource, which applied to their defense structure and their military thinking.
The U.S. countered this strategy by building equipment with high kill-to-loss ratios. We couldn’t hope to out-number them, so we tried to out-tech them. Well, to be fair, this was mainly what Reagan decided to do. Carter’s style was more to lull them into submission by letting our military turn to dust… but I digress. Russia wandered outside of their comfort zone and tried to catch up, technologically. Star Wars scared them into spending billions. They tried to counter the F-15 with a copy-cat. Moving away from volume and trying to compete on a tech level caused huge cost issues which eventually lead to governmental collapse. It’s a cautionary tale that needs to be remembered every time people get upset by the F-22 being cut.

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flying fart proudly joyned September 11, 2009 at 4:17 pm

Soviets did indeed have an amazing military industrial complex. It’s pretty easy when you don’t need to pay your engineers much, get all your parts from companies that you own, and believe in quatity over quality. Other than WWII era tanks (arguable the best of their time), has there ever been a time when, one-for-one, the Soviet Union industrial complex created a superior weapon system?(i loled my arse off here) SAMs and personal firearms, perhaps(i keept to lol my arse off). They have always believed that size is their greatest resource(nooooooo they didnt), which applied to their defense structure and their military thinking(just speculation aka fantasy-bullshit).
The U.S. countered this strategy by building equipment with high kill-to-loss ratios(Whahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!). We couldn’t hope to out-number them(whahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. NATO anaone?), so we tried to out-tech them(whahahahahahahahahaha.. thats why USa had much much more nuclear rockets than soviets). Well, to be fair(gosh what a aroogance!), this was mainly what Reagan decided to do(whahahahahahahahahaha.. and thats why US citizens and their childrens children will pay with own taxes in a long future). Carter’s style was more to lull them into submission by letting our military turn to dust(HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!)… but I digress. Soviet Union wandered outside of their comfort zone(simple; nope) and tried to catch up, technologically. Star Wars scared them into spending billions(whahahahahahahahahaha!!!). They tried to counter the F-15 with a copy-cat(WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! SOMEONE PLEASE TELL HIM WHY F15 was invented for!). Moving away from volume and trying to compete on a tech level caused huge cost issues which eventually lead to governmental collapse(WHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!). It’s a cautionary tale that needs to be remembered every time people get upset by the F-22 being cut(i hear republican “sieg heil! Sieg Heil! sieg Heil!” here).
please dont take it as an insult! but you are so wrong and unbelivebale arrogant! peace!

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Fraz September 11, 2009 at 5:12 pm

I guess it depends on your definition of superior is. Yes, the F-15 was created to counter the MiG-25 since the F4 couldn’t handle it in a dog-fight. This was one of those times where going tech heavy was a bad idea. The U.S. figured that in a nuclear age with missiles on every plane, no one needed a dog-fighter. Tech wise, the F-4 was far superior to the MiG-25. It was designed to be a stand-off fighter, but the MiG was designed much like the Zero was (speedy, manuverable, and fragile gun platform).
The point I was making is that they moved AWAY from the MiG-25 style of cheap products that could be fielded in droves to overwhelm an enemy and instead tried to copy the F-15 which was designed to shoot droves of MiGs out of the sky.
Hell, even the WWII Russian tanks were, tech wise, inferior to the German counter-parts. But the Soviets could build them faster and cheaper than the Germans could build Tigers. Add a gun that could pierce Tiger armor and you suddenly have a formidable tank that could be fielded cheaply in large numbers.
The U.S. didn’t know that we had more missiles than the Russians. Well, the CIA knew, but they convinced the presidency and the military of the bomber and missile gaps (yes yes, laugh if you want, but it’s 100% true. The only reason the U.S. had so many ICBMs is because we were told that the Russians had more than us).
As for the collapse of the USSR, you might want to educate yourself before you bust a gut laughing. One of the widely accepted main reasons for the collapse was economic stagnation and the arms race with the West. Billions were spent on SDI, which the U.S. wasn’t actually spending much money on. “Guns not Butter” is a HUGE reason there is no longer a Soviet Union.
And finally, you missed the ENTIRE point of my F-22 comment. I’m saying that spending billions on weapons at the cost of the public sector and more reasonable weapon systems is what brought the USSR and its economy to its knees. Cancelling the F-22 is and always will be a good idea. It was a money sink that was draining budgets to field a few planes that were out-teching a foe that no longer exists.

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Timid observer September 11, 2009 at 6:05 pm

Just facts
Egypt gets military aid for peace treaty so they are geting it free(me to,me to)
A client state like Iraq now and Egypt not the best reference.

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flying fart proudly joyned September 11, 2009 at 6:33 pm

The point I was making is that they moved AWAY from the MiG-25 style of cheap products that could be fielded in droves to overwhelm an enemy and instead tried to copy the F-15 which was designed to shoot droves of MiGs out of the sky.–
the truth is that soviets never tryed to copy F-15. all what they wanted was to integrate the computers and new rocket technologies into own jets. aerodinamics, material and production quality of soviet millitary tech was equal or better than of american. not to forget that american mill tech were never possible without brain help from Europe and other countries around the world.
–Hell, even the WWII Russian tanks were, tech wise, inferior to the German counter-parts.—
AGAIN; WW2 SOVIET TANKS.
and stop to compare oranges with apples! it makes you look retarded

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Valcan September 11, 2009 at 10:20 pm

Posted by: flying fart proudly joyned at September 11, 2009 04:17 PM
and the last one.
Those have to be 2 of the dumbest post i have seen on any site sence i have learned to use a computer. Realy wahhhahahahahah and lololloollolo and what ever the heck else your typing just makes me think you lost about 20 IQ points in the space of a day or so. At no point did you realy counter any of Fraz’s points. Nor did you realy make any besides.
The US sucks,
I think the US is full of retards,
I argue like a child,
And your wrong.
Realy thats it.
The russians have built great things. The Typhoon class was in many ways one of the best subs ever built. There sub force was top notch. But then look at the rest of there forces. Not so good.
Think about it this way. We built tanks to try and save the lives of the tanker if they got hit. The russians considered there mens lives completely despensible. Men were things not lives to be preserved.
Were we ahead in tech during most of the cold war. Yes. However many of the things we built or designed were then coppied by the russians.
What Fraz said is true we out teched the russians…then the stole the tech and redesigned a cheaper easier to produce less effective and many times less reliable system.
Basicaly the russians have always been good at stalins line “Quantity is it own quality”. But not so good at the oposite.
Anyways my 2 cents

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STemplar September 11, 2009 at 11:02 pm

Russia is a has been. They’ve got a few decades left of their only real resource which is oil and instead of rolling it into transforming their economy and fixing the sad state of their society, they’re trying to cling to some sort of military strategic relevance. Their population is dwindling and the shift in demographics will do them in before the oil runs out.

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elgatoso September 12, 2009 at 12:09 am

flying fart proudly joyned WTF is wrong with you ????YOU are always insulting people and talking buls**t .why you don’t kill yourself and let the world in peace.Stupid arrogant.

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handbags September 12, 2009 at 3:18 am

http://www.wholesale-retailer.com/
Recently, more and more people choose to imitation as a gift. The purchase of imitation into a cool, very trendy thing. The quality of products, increased at the same time.

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ksdjf September 12, 2009 at 4:07 am
lsdkfjsd September 12, 2009 at 4:20 am

@”flying fart proudly joyned”
You can’t tell me you (and hopefully some others) that you don’t sound like a HUGE troll, ha ha. C’mon, do you understand technology and information creation/transfer? The U.S. employees and WELCOMES students and companies (or industries) from all over the place.
Think about the useful things in a house with electricity – where was much of the technology created geographically? Who and what nationalities/genders/ages invented the core technologies geographically (possibly many countries/sexes/people)? Who manufactured it (many places again)? Who purchased and finds use in it or wants it (again many countries)? Supply demand sucker!
Things aren’t perfect obviously, but how do you argue against progress?
I’m just saying that collaboration is more constructive than some seem to realize, and to blame 1 place is kinda arrogant, no? And yet you are blaming 1 place. 1 group of people from many places. Give me a break, you’re arrogant and kinda obnoxious “flying fart proudly joyned” as you call yourself.

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flying fart proudly joyned September 12, 2009 at 10:41 am

@ksdjf
Chavo got kredit-weapons by acseptig the South osetia and Abhazia as independent countries.
aside that russian president was drinking tea with Buddhist Lamas 2 weeks ago.

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Cato September 12, 2009 at 1:21 pm

“The ‘Communist’ war machine fell to peices (poor quality, inefficient, etc…) after Russia became ‘capitalist’.”
Lovely, blaming capitalism for shoddy workmanship is like blaming a picnic for ants. The Free Market system employs a simple win-win exchange program between 2 dis-interested parties. If you’re building shoddy products, eventually you go under. The shoddiness (if that’s a word) is no more a function of capitalism than it was communism. All we know is the Free Market has been a boon to civilization and you only have to look at the most successful countries vs. the 3rd World to see how much difference that makes. West Germans made the Mercedes, East Germans made the Trabant. Same people, same country – 2 completely different systems. Mercedes were built for a world luxury market, the Trabant was a POS foisted off on people who couldn’t afford anything else. It’s no coincidence that much of the 3rd World is not free, and you can’t have a Free Market if the people aren’t.
Speaking of not free, it appears that’s where the present administration is taking the US, so expect them to die like flies in the next election. You heard it here first.

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Jimbo September 13, 2009 at 3:37 am

“so what of the new Russian fighters? export sales only then? What ever happened to the su-47?
Posted by: Tim at September 10, 2009 07:20 PM”
It was sent to the dustbin, where it rightly belonged.

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Jimbo September 13, 2009 at 3:39 am

“Given how embarassing Bulava has been, one can only imagine they’re scrambling to fix it. It’s not like it’s a program that can be allowed to fail, after all.
Posted by: Doz at September 11, 2009 12:15 AM”
It may not be ‘allowed’ to fail but it is failing, and failing badly.

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flying fart proudly joyned September 13, 2009 at 5:37 am

yap. russians gave up Bulava. they will never make this rocet to be “ready to strike” therefore russian nuclear forces are a joke now and russian industry is not worth to talk about. yeap.. it is how it is. isnt it?

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Roy Smith September 13, 2009 at 6:15 pm

The only thing this article is doing is giving us a false sense of security & making us complacent. This article strengthens the argument for the U.S. to continue to cancel,stop building,& retire weapons systems. “Let’s cancel the F-22 Raptor because there is nobody out there to threaten us.” We laugh & mock the Russians,along with the Chinese,Iranians,North Koreans,& Venezuelans,& our weapons systems are also crumbling along with our armed forces stretched beyond the breaking point.

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Doz September 13, 2009 at 10:08 pm

“It may not be ‘allowed’ to fail but it is failing, and failing badly.”
Which is saying nothing useful. The point remains that Bulava will eventually pass muster, because it is required to.
In fact, it’s record is little different from the SS-N-20 that armed the Typhoon SSBNs, which had many test failures before becoming an extremely reliable missile. It’s a problem of manufacturing quality control, not some sort of fundamental design flaw.
The only differnece is back in the 1970s/80s noone knew about SS-N-20.

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Doz September 13, 2009 at 10:13 pm

“Russia is a has been. They’ve got a few decades left of their only real resource which is oil and instead of rolling it into transforming their economy and fixing the sad state of their society, they’re trying to cling to some sort of military strategic relevance. Their population is dwindling and the shift in demographics will do them in before the oil runs out.”
That’s simply parotting trite nonsense. For those actually paying attention to Russia’s demographic situation, it’s virtually stagnant, not in decline anymore. This is the same as the rest of Europe. Of course, this might incline right-wing American ignormasues to declare “ah-hah!” since there’s some sort of trope amongst those ignoramuses that Europe is going to become a Muslim Caliphate, but that’s nonsense to any real demographers.

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flying fart proudly joyned September 14, 2009 at 2:31 am

demography aside but if we loook into EU position then there are at moment 2 generation. the european youth is looking on actualy development and see this: the olders won cold war they got money, they played “power-games” and what do have we?
1the moraly and economicaly debts of their games,
2the lost money(wasted by british and american speculants and bankers)
3new treaths arising on horison with a help of retarted ameircan policy (pan-arabism(it is not islamism) will be most powerfull in next generations. and they will not stop by foundation of own Union). chinese/Indians/Africans/south americans trying to catch the place on ressourse-wars.
4the production/progress leading is lost aehhmm exported to other aferes.
5the american and european conservatives killed our future as european citizen because of own fears and incompability to future.
everything is lost and destroyed.

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Rob Manning September 14, 2009 at 4:12 am

“All we know is the Free Market has been a boon to civilization…”
If your one of the lucky few to be born to middle class parents in either Europe or the US. The vast majority of the worlds population (those that actually make the cheap products you enjoy) commonly work in appalling conditions for little more that subsistance wages.
We the west are at the top of a pyramid, the majority are at the base holding the whole thing up. Their cheap labor makes products profitable. That is why China, India, SE Asia produce the majority of the worlds products.
The majority of the worlds population in a free market system will never be able to afford a Mercedes, or a Trabant, or a bicycle.
Most products produced in a Capitalist system are ‘shoddily’ made by design. Most are designed to fail after 5 years. It’s called: ‘planned obsolescence’. It keeps people buying new goods thus keeping the whole system running.
btw. I’m not a commie. I’m a Capitalist, i run my own company. I’m just aware how the world works and aware of capitalisms short comings.

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Vladimir Ulianov September 14, 2009 at 4:37 am

Interesting points Rob.
Here in Russia we’ve learnt the lesson the hard way. For the average Russian life was better in the USSR. There was not many products for us to buy, but all our basic needs were met and we had 100% employment. We were jealous of the west and what they apparently had access to (cars, tvs, gadgets, etc…) but we didn’t know most people could not afford them. These consummer goods were for the few, not for everybody.
I will be moving to Finland soon to work for Nokia. They seem to have struck a good balance – they have a Social Democratic political/economic system (Americans would call it ‘Sociaalist’). Free health care, free education, and a high growth economy. It’s not perfect but the Scandinavian approach to society is very appealing.
Sorry for drifting off topic.

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Jussi Alvar September 14, 2009 at 5:00 am

I’m from Finland, damn Russians coming here stealing our jobs (only joking). It’s a little know fact but we have tons of guns here. We have the 3rd highest gun ownership level in the world. We trust our government even though they are left leaning Social Democrats, the government of Finland IS the people of Finland. No government would take our guns.

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Rhyno327 September 14, 2009 at 8:31 am

The Russians will still be able to export military equipment to those that will buy. The demise of thier MIC is premature, do not underestimate the Russians. They are rife with corruption, etc., but don’t write them off. As for the Chi-coms, US industry has moved there, for cheap labor and huge profits. Anyone see something wrong with this pic? WE are financing thier arms buildup. The middle class has been left out in the cold..jeez, thanx alot..

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justbill September 14, 2009 at 8:55 am

Vladimir Ulianov wrote: “Here in Russia we’ve learnt the lesson the hard way. For the average Russian life was better in the USSR. There was not many products for us to buy, but all our basic needs were met and we had 100% employment. We were jealous of the west and what they apparently had access to (cars, tvs, gadgets, etc…) but we didn’t know most people could not afford them. These consummer goods were for the few, not for everybody.”
Everything you wrote after the parentheses is simply wrong. The standard of living in Western Europe, Canada and the United States, areas that embrace capitalism to varying degrees, is far higher than other parts of the world because of their economic models. American Welfare recipiants own cars, have their own apartments or homes, go to college or vocational schools and receive health care for free. Our level of earnings that meet the government’s definition for poverty exceeds most of the world’s countries average yearly income. ($10,830 for a single person equals 333,492 Russian Rubles.) The “poor, downtrodden masses” exist in countries that still embrace Soviet-style communism and/or feudalistic oligarchies. Thousands upon thousands come to the West in general and America in particular for a better life. No one is moving to North Korea, the many African countries, or dare I say Russia.
Nevertheless, don’t worry about Russia. Give it time, be a watchdog of your government, your economy and let free market capitalism truly flourish. You are on the right track though. I wish we in the U.S. could enjoy Putin’s flat tax, as but one example. Just don’t expect to excise the 70 year history of cancer known as communism overnight.

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Jimbo September 14, 2009 at 9:36 am

“Nevertheless, don’t worry about Russia. Give it time, be a watchdog of your government,”
Err, you do know that ‘watchdogs’ tend to get put down pretty rapidly in Russia, Poloniums nasty stuff

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justbill September 14, 2009 at 9:40 am

Touch

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Jon Stamp September 14, 2009 at 12:38 pm

justbill – all those products you claim people can ‘afford’ in the West – they were all bought on credit.
I’m a lower middle class officer worker and so are most of the folks i know. All my friends have cars (not Mercedes though), all of them bought on credit. Their homes, all on credit. Most of the goods in their houses – credit.
It’s the same across much of the US and the UK, it’s not so bad in Europe, the people there are better educated and didn’t spend like idiots when times were apparently ‘good’.
In reality the majority really can’t afford all the products they have surrounded themselves with. People haven’t been living within their limited means.

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flying fart proudly joyned September 15, 2009 at 12:23 am

…an American media that was strongly under the influence of the American Military Industrial Complex.—
“WAS”?

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Byron Skinner September 15, 2009 at 1:28 pm

Good Morning Folks,
To Flying Fart, I stand correct, yes the current military defense industry complex is still firmly wed to the myth of Russia and China.
With out the huge domestic elite media propaganda build up that both the dod and private industry has spent billion of $ on, their could be not justification for the DD-100, F-22, FCS or even the F-35 weapon/platforms.
The old cold war wet dreams of the McCarthy crowd and their heirs, of Soviet or Chines bombers, along with a lethal shower if nuclear ICBM’s coming in mass over the Canadian border with only a hand full of courageous American fighter pilots to stop, I guess the Canadians were hiding in their vast forests, was all that stood between civilization as we knew it and the “Evil Empire” of Communism.
Psychologists might call this American envy of the 1940 Battle of Britain and the certainly courageous RAF held off the Nazis and along with the rest of the British people deserve enormous amounts of credit for the courage. The facts of Technology and Geography. and the Soviet myth never coming true, have never put the American people is such a position, so all the chicken hawks have is their dreams.
It was a lie then and it is a lie today. We should stop spending defense funds predicated by myths and media placed falsehoods.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

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flying fart proudly joyned September 15, 2009 at 4:37 pm

I think you’re very confused. Thanks for amusing me though.—
who is amusing who, you loser.
@Byron Skinner
well. congratulation. you just told everyone that history is wrong and Ike Eisenhower was a liar.

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Byron Skinner September 15, 2009 at 11:02 pm

Good Evening Flying Fart,
Again you are correct, Eisenhower did in fact as well as the Dulles brothers lie to the American people. think Indochina, on a regular basis. As for history of the Cold War era, well go to a book store and check out the new titles.
I’m rather bewildered FF, you seem surprised that politicians and even Generals would lie. How tusting we are.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

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Shantanu Chatterjee September 16, 2009 at 2:39 am

You know this is very obviously a planted story.
One could write similar things about the US defense Industry(don’t get me wrong I know the US science and tech industry/infrastructure) is beyond brilliant.
But still these would be the talking points if the Ruskies had the medi management staff of LM/Boeing etc:
1.US has a consistent record of imposing sanctions just when the planes etc are about to go into combat which is why Greece has M2000s along with the F-16,there are many more such examples.
2.The US weapons are backward integrated and the US will refuse them to be integrated onto other platforms,this is why SK bought F-15K instead of the Rafale.
3.US almost never sell the bleeding edge tech.
4.Some examples of price escalations as in F-22/B-2(worth 5 times its weight in gold!) stated completely out of context.

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Scott I Orr September 19, 2009 at 3:39 am

Lets face it, the Soviet Union collapsed simply because of American Snack food technology. The 80′s saw a proliferation of artificial flavorings and microwave technology making it possible to have a tasty delicious meal in 2 minutes or less. They just could not compete with that. They saw all the different flvors of Combo’s and simply said ” Jeez, the Americans can mass produce cheese stuffed pretzels in a multitude of flavors, we just can’t keep up ! ”

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