In another case of damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t, the Army’s getting zinged by the GAO on its armor testing procedure.
We reported on the investigation that prompted this GAO look earlier this year, but the long and the short of it is that government auditors found flaws in how the Army was testing the first prototypes of its more powerful AP-round-stopping X-SAPI.
The GAO recommended a host of independent audits, test procedure modifications and other “oversight” as it normally does. And the Army, in a statement, largely agreed with the idea that more oversight is better:
The Department of the Army announced today that it has established additional quality control measures to further ensure that body armor testing documentation and procurement processes are rigorous, consistent, and use available best practices. To this end, the Army has added several quality control positions to include a Senior Executive Service position as the quality assurance director of personal protective equipment. This new senior-level position will report directly to the Army Acquisition Executive. These changes address issues raised in a GAO report…
In the interest of full disclosure, I was invited to attend an Army press briefing on their response to the GAO report on Friday but got tied up and couldn’t make it.
The bottom line remains what I indicated last year when the IG found test flaws: armor testing is as much art as it is science. The GAO wants oversight independent of the government, while others level sharp criticism over the Army’s continued use of HP White Labs in Street, MD, for its armor testing — believing doing so would make their results more unbiased since Aberdeen is essentially an Army command.
Now the GAO says Aberdeen is jacked up…ugh…
The armor testing community is a small one, I can think of only three labs in the US with testing experience for personal body armor with government contracts. With the science of armor materials and designs clashing constantly with threat modalities the ability to verify product effectiveness is constantly changing. I think the testers’ heads are in the right place, but clearly there needs to be one standard and some over the shoulder checking.
As duplicitous as the Army can be with its armor claims (“The Best Body Armor in the World Bar None”), I tend to believe that since the microscope on armor and testing has swung so squarely on the service, they’re loath to bob and weave to save their own skin on this one. But we’ll see…
– Christian
{ 26 comments… read them below or add one }
Something that will never happen: The Army swallowing it’s pride, admitting it’s wrong, and saying “I’m sorry.”
Byron, do you trust the Army?
And, to anyone, has Pinnacle solved the adhesive problem? I haven’t heard an update on that.
Something that will never happen: The Army swallowing it’s pride, admitting it’s wrong, and saying “I’m sorry.”–
why should they do it exsactly?
its always funny how idiots from “rainbow gun shity press” swallow all the bullcrap floating in “personal speculation of anon staff dude who is maybe the generals bitch”.
This is a great article.
The next thing the US Army should look into is armor plated canteens.
Then the US should armor plate toilet paper and buy radioactive resistant tampons.
Why not?
When this entire process is completed the US soldier won’t be able to stand up. But man oh! man will he be safe.
And ( by the way ) anybody on the block will be able to kick its sit down ass.
What a joke the USA has become.
A nation of strutting, arrogant, pompous, cowards, that run at the sight of their blood, and yet think that it is their God given right to slaughter anyone that they think should be slaughtered.
Has anyone ever noticed that the victims of the USA’s slaughter are 99.9% Muslims?
One would think that a Jew or two would be mixed into the kill ratio, but I guess it must be God’s will.
Just who am I to to go against the will of God, and the amen corner of the US Congress?
The day of the USA will come.
It will not be a pretty sight, but nevertheless it will come.
The sooner it happens the better it will be for everyone.
This is a great article.
The next thing the US Army should look into is armor plated canteens.
Then the US should armor plate toilet paper and buy radioactive resistant tampons.
Why not?
When this entire process is completed the US soldier won’t be able to stand up. But man oh! man will he be safe.
And ( by the way ) anybody on the block will be able to kick its sit down ass.
What a joke the USA has become.
A nation of strutting, arrogant, pompous, cowards, that run at the sight of their blood, and yet think that it is their God given right to slaughter anyone that they think should be slaughtered.
Has anyone ever noticed that the victims of the USA’s slaughter are 99.9% Muslims?
One would think that a Jew or two would be mixed into the kill ratio, but I guess it must be God’s will.
Just who am I to to go against the will of God, and the amen corner of the US Congress?
The day of the USA will come.
It will not be a pretty sight, but nevertheless it will come.
The sooner it happens the better it will be for everyone.
Oh, Zandor, time for your meds!
An interesting article. Thanks.
Re-read the “armor testing procedure” link, ffpj, or anyone who hasn’t.
Pretty consistent with the subtle incompetencies I experienced in the Navy nuclear weapons field, and I suspect more armor-related goofs or cover-ups exist. since… I’ve done one or two related to nukes, myself.
Zandor,
Lets make a list of people we have fought that are not muslim:
Vietnam, Panama, Korea, Japan, Germany, Mexico, Spain, Philippines, Italy, Canada (pre-independence, France (French-Indian), each other(Civil War)…..
It just goes to show you, we are equal opportunity as**oles.
Zandor is now another retarded poster added to our growing pile of dumba$$es.
99% muslim…..so
Most of the people muslim terrorist kill are guess what….MUSLIMS!!!!
So we considr killing muslim terrorist karma with a kick.
Btw at no time in that rambling incoherent rant did you make any sence.
Congrats you are now the kanye west of posters.
———————————
Btw does anyone have any new on the flex armor that hardens when it gets hit?
Zandor, did you fail history 101? Should we have attacked Australia when the Japanese bombed pearl harbor? Should we have attacked Great Brittan instead of North Korea to liberate South Korea? Look at how well off South Korea is compared to the north. Should we attack Israel because allah akbar screaming terrorist where festering in a lawless country and attacking the “infidels” for a mis-interpretation of their own religion?
Valcan-
http://www.d3o.com
I don’t know if that’s exactly what you’re talking about, but it sounds similar.
gsak at October 19, 2009 11:12 PM
Yea kinda but this stuff is made to absorb ballistics impacts.
Though using it in that way is a great idea also.
-After reading most of the GAO report and related commentaries I’m not sure where this is going. The thought that the US Army is not competent to test materials purchased through US Army contracts to US Army specifications and for use by US Army (and other) troops is just as ludicrous as letting each contractor select its own commercial testing firm.
-The GAO says there is insufficient oversight of Army testing procedures. Okay, compare and contrast what oversight the Army has with that of the firms hired by the contractors.
-Another factor is the standards to which the material is being tested. One report stated that the Army was using standards in excess of what DoJ requires for police use. Got news for ya, kids: with all due respect to our honest police officers, the jobs and threats are nowhere the same.
-My take is that contractors are coming up short and want some kind of relief from Congress. If the Army changed the rules in the middle of the game then, contractually, they are entitled to some relief. If the supplied materials do not, in fact, meet the contractual specifications then they should be rejected.
-I am not contractor bashing: been there; done that; fought, and won, when we were improperly charged with not meeting specs and ate the costs when we, for whatever reason, made mistakes. We ran an honest company and I think most contractors do the same.
-Three final comments: 1) Building stuff is hard and shouldn’t be complicated by vague and/or uncertain requirements. 2) When in doubt about certain specs, ask for clarification. 3) Most important is the fact that this material is going to protect someone’s son, brother, nephew, dad or daughter, sister, niece, mother. They expect and deserve the very best.
Zandor, Zandor, Zandor! Alas, alas, alas!
Ask yourself WHY you hate the USA so much? Certainly NOT for waging war to get rid of the Kaiser, the NAZI’s, the Bushido warriors of Japan, dwfwnd Soth Korea, Vietnam, get rid of Saddam, and now try to rid the world of the evil of TALIBAN… Whoever made the point that homicide bombers mostly blow up Muslims made a very telling point…. and they send in young kids and people urder extreme duress to do their filthy work. Do you admire that? I don’t. I will do all in my power to protect this country and preserve it’s constitutional form of government… you on the other hand want to actually see the S..T Hit The Fan! Pathetic. You really need counseling! (OMG…. I split an infinite!) On the body armor question… why doesn’t the US Bureau of Standards get involved in this sort of thing? It would seem to me that that’s whet they are all about.. or am I naieve? (I can’t speel worth a damn!)
Buffalo
“Zandor” can’t be an U.S. American: U.S. Americans NEVER choose the red pill !
Can we at least give the military some credit here? The body armor we have now is better than the flak vests that we had been issued before. The old flak vests couldn’t even stop a round. They were basically there to prevent shrapnel wounds, thats about it. These can stop rounds coming from AKs which I guarantee has saved many families back here from having to bury a loved one.
The Army may not have the perfect solution, but they did provide A solution that while not the best protection available, does the job quite well.
As for protection levels, are we talking about protecting our soldiers from everything that can be thrown at them? That isn’t going to happen ever. The most capable protection is a tank and even those are vulnerable on the battlefield. Anything that can be seen can be killed. We need to accept that now and realize that the amount of casualties we have had in both Iraq and Afghanistan are minimal when compared to most of our past conflicts.
Our technology has improved for protecting our soldiers as has battlefield medicine in saving lives of those wounded when those protections are defeated or bypassed.
And Zandor did you also forget that we have fought on the side of muslims too? What was the religious affiliation of the majority of the Bosnians that weren’t serbs? Thats right Zandor, they were muslim! Zandor when you want to call us killers, get it right, we are Equal Opportunity killers.
Dear Ed;
No I didn’t forget that the USA has sometimes backed Muslims.
Why, from time to time shouldn’t we?
We after all back Israel 24 hours a day.
As a matter of fact it wasn’t just so very long ago that the USA was a backer of Saddam ( remember him? ) Hussein and Iraq.
That fact seems to be have been conveniently forgotten about by the super patriots, and the press that backs them up.
Gosh, I read that Saddam was a sadistic monster.
However a few year earlier he was a big time friend of the USA.
How do you spell hypocricy?
But it is easy to make the sheep in the USA forget about these inconvient things.
They are so much involved with football, and soap operas that they don’t have time to do much of anything else, other than support the blasting of innocent people, via remote controlled planes.
The USA’s government is rotten to the core, and at the same time, knowing that its days are few it is lashing out at, mass media promoted, enemies in Afghanistan.
What have the Talibs, which make up the majority of Afghans, ever done that threatened the USA?
Don’t confuse the Taliban with Al Queda. Most of the poorly informed half wits in the USA do that.
So in that way ( via mis information ) it is easier to ravage innocent countries for having done nothing other than having a different opinion about how things should work.
In the Middle Ages the idiot Christians conducted the crusades, and now the idiot Christians are doing it again.
President George Bush is quoted as saying that God speaks to him, and that God told him to attack Iraq.
If that doesn’t tell you something about the USA nothing ever will.
The USA is toast.
The USA is the most colossal bully on the planet, and thinks it has the muscle to get its way.
Fortunately the puny Afghans are sticking a fork in the eye of the arrogant Yankees.
The Afghans are practised professionals at the sticking forks in eyes therapy.
The Russians are the previous recipients of the Afghan fork treatment.
Afghanistan will prevail.
The USA will simply declare victory, and then in the dark of night leave Afghanistan.
In a hurry.
Again zandor failed history 101. The Crusades were massed by the pope to liberate Jerusalem, which was originally in Jewish control… So this is the same thing? I think your way off.
Are you upset that Solomon’s Temple is being rebuilt? Are you mad that the Jews have regained their ancient homeland just as the Torah and Bible have predicted? Leave your religious antics for something else, we can see where your point lies.
So you think the “afgans” are putting a stick in our eye? Buddy, look at our history, we have fought the Nazis of Europe, the North Vietnamese and lost 50,000 people. We have fought ourselves and lost half a million people. We fought the British, the best army in the world at that time. The list goes on and on, and what you have here compares to nothing. Whatever makes you feel better though.
Also we not only supported Hussan, we supported the Afghans in their struggle against the Soviets, and the Iranians in there struggle against Iraq, the Kuwaitis when they where over ran by Saddam…
“Gosh, I read that Saddam was a sadistic monster.
However a few year earlier he was a big time friend of the USA.”
Zandor yet again your showin your insanity.
BTW when we went into iraq in 2003 guess what we found….New bunkers built by the germans!!! And weapons built by other european countries!!!!
You dont live in any of them either though right?
And realy get a clue i aint a yankee.
“What have the Talibs, which make up the majority of Afghans, ever done that threatened the USA?”
And yes yet again your wrong. The magority of the afghanies dont belong or even like the taliban.
Of course maybe its that i just dont drive up to little girls and throw acid in there faces for going to school….Maybe i should do that then would you like me?
BTW wtf happened to banning people or at least removing the annoying ugh boots posts?
Good Morning gsak,
No gask, I don’t trust the Army, It has been my own personal experience both in and out of uniform that military officers from Ensign/2nd. Lieutenant to Admirals and Generals will not for a moment hesitate to lie, if it serves their purpose. NCO’s are just as bad or even worse. “I will not lie, cheat, steal nor tolerate those that do.” died in the 19th. Century, if not before.
That said though gask I trust for profit private enterprise even less. On the question of body if I recall a couple of years ago an open test was held and the results of that test we inconclusive it did show serious design flaws in the then popular Dragon Skin vest.
One thing to remember about the military there is accountability built into the system. Procurement/Acquisition officers who can and have been held accountable. For a civilian company that produces and provides to the military all they must show is that the product meets the minimum contract specs, often times which the contractor himself wrote or helped write for the formal contract.
The military personal who lost their lives because of a defective product are just as dead but at least for their families with in the military system the is a chance for some type of closure.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
The Army isn’t perfect but one can’t help consider some general getting favors for awarding contracts to civilian companies. Just look at the M4. How many tests does the M4 have to fail and how many people in the service have to complain about rifle malfunctions before someone gets off their @#$ and realizes it needs to be replaced? I’ll bet some general or dod person is getting rich at the expense of the great people who serve this country! I say have an outside organization perform all tests with military advisors and have that group of people decide who gets military contracts. While there isn’t a perfect process this would help.
Let’s see what we can come up with:
COA 1: Hang up the vests and shoot at them. Examine the results, take photos, and make a recommendation… This is the most obvious approach and the one we pay the testers to do.
COA 2: Ask congressmen from the armor vest manufactoring districts to make recommendations then buy from the most influential member’s contributers… uhhh, this might be the soundest career move.
COA 3: Put the various vests on pig carcasses at the Chicago stockyards, put a pencil in the side, shoot at them with various weapons, and mark how far they are pushed… whoops, that was the method of selecting the 45 ACP; can’t do that again.
COA 4: Give the vests and $100 K to Mythbusters and buy the one that works… whoops, conflicts with COA 2 (d*mn!)
Really don’t have an answer, just lingering doubts with the Acquisition Process.
signed disgusted
I thought the .45 also involved cadaver tests? Plenty of people donate their bodies to be cut apart by fledgling medical students, so why not for ballistic science?
It would be nice if there were a real war; one that the US might be in danger of losing so politicos might eventually stop being corrupt losers, and attrition would cleanse the officer corps of idiots.
Here is an idea, lets take some company that has been over in the sandbox too long, rotate them stateside.
2. Have each company come in and show them how to wear the armor correctly. Have the troops put the various armors on a different set of dummies or cadavers.
3. Then give them a bunch of different weapons from explosives to small arms they would face on a way too frequent biases. Let them place the explosives where they would expect them to be based on their experience running into IEDs. Let them fire off the weapons as if they were getting shot at.
4. Have the squads take off the armor and decide what they would rather have on.
5. Submit that to the oversight group.
I have a feeling that even if they screw around and overkill the various armors it will still tell a good picture of how well they would do in real situations.