I’ve been getting a lot of feedback on the Osprey post from Wednesday, which “speculates” on the Marines’ deployment to Afghanistan, and particularly why the service refuses to talk on the record about it in detail.
Well, I’ve got a little more “informed speculation” on the deployment from a variety of sources and I thought I’d throw them out to DT readers for their pass.
There may be a couple other reasons for why the Corps can’t or won’t talk about the details of the deployment…first of all, let’s get one thing straight: all indicators are that the 22 MEU, which has 10 MV-22s from VMM-263 (the squadron I embedded with in Afghanistan) will chop their birds to 261 for the deployment. It’s pretty weak sauce that the Corps can’t fly 261’s planes from CONUS to Afghanistan — the MV-22 is touted as being “self-deployable”…but I’ll admit it would be a LONG, grueling series of flights to do that.
Renting an amphib to ship them over would probably give the Navy heart palpitations on the costs — so that’s a no go after the political pressure of the “first” deployment is gone (remember, they shipped 263’s planes to Kuwait via a solo-mission amphib for the Osprey’s first ever deployment).
So let’s agree that the Ospreys are coming from the MEU. I’ll betcha fleet commanders are loath to admit that they’ll be losing all the ERG’s medium lift capability, so they’d prefer not to broadcast that fact too widely (though I think that’s a pretty weak argument too since they’ll have 53s to execute any contingency ops).
There’s also the potential CENTCOM angle. In order to get the Ospreys into Helmand, they’d have to fly over Pakistan. Now, it’s one thing to fly KCs and fighters over Pakistan at high altitude, but the Ospreys will have to fly well within visual range of some civvies who might not take too kindly to their airspace being used by US forces to eventually help kill Talibs. Maybe CENTCOM hasn’t finished a deal with Pakistan for overflight rights?
Anyway, I’m hearing indicators that jibe with DT commenter “Ed” insofaras Gates might have pushed this announcement ahead of the Corps’ readiness to talk about it. Get the damned thing over there, already! he’s saying. Well, let’s do it.
PS — Am still trying to line up a more detailed interview on this but all indicators are that the Remote Guardian system will be retrofitted to the Ospreys in-country.
– Christian
even if you’re right, we have them now, lets use them…they have a job they can do better than other platforms, no point complaining about the procurement process, when we’re talking about the usage of the osprey
Christian, just a nit but its “ERG” not “ARG.” A couple years ago the Corps changed almost everything “amphibious” to “expeditionary.”
@CJ: How about this? Why don’t you wait and see how they perform in the field, instead of blowing them off like you’re doing? Maybe then you would have an informed opinion instead of your ramblings. Ever ridden in one? Didn’t think so.
Lets us them now..
If the thing could have worked in hot high Afghan summer offensive they would have been there not at Cherry Point.
a) you couldn’t pay me to ride in one.
b) the facts on these birds are in, the GAO reports on the Iraq deployment are piss poor, mission ready rates were so low that 1/2 the birds didn’t fly at any given time, it’s ridiculous. Keep in mind, these bird cost over $70M, and if you roll in the R&D cost, that’s $140M a bird. That’s as much as the assembly line cost of a Raptor IIRC.
I’m not an expert or anything, but you don’t have to be to smell the stink on this bird.
Its a free market, how is interested in this ?
Lets post all the buyers of this wonder weapon.
More expensive then the Manhattan project and just as lethal
The hatred of the osprey amazes me as always.
Its interesting to me to see one aircraft turn people into the equivalent of hicks talkin about how they dont trust them new fangled machines oh no sir.
And I am a hick.
hmmm.i give 2 hours for this topic before troll maggots will start to shit on Osprey becuz this transport hybride is not an atack helicopter/flying tank.
(PS: do you know that turkey is a meber of europe? so is it a member of muslim east and kazakhstan and china are members of europe either.)
I do not think the Pakstani gov. will have a problem with America flying over to refuel MV-22s, but how high of a target can a Stinger (controlled by a Taliban fighter hell-bent on killing Americans) hit?
Hey it’s the first of it’s kind guys, cut it some slack. Any subsequent tiltrotor will most likely have a much better track record. Considering the current helicopter shortage in Afghanistan we should send as many of these over there as possible.
Bla bla Bla…listen up kiddies, the Osprey is in the Inventory, it’s being used, so get over it already! Get a life and stop hanging out at your mothers basement.
Those of you by-itching the most ever fly in a Ch-46 (the helicopter the Osprey is replacing)? Well, I have, and you talk about feeling like your azz is hanging out there…thats it. Every Ch-46 I road in had patches covering bullet holes on them. Slow low and waiting to get hit. Besides, the Osprey wasn’t designed for Hot LZ riding on the skids touch-n-go assaults…thus the terms Higher, faster, quicker…so you can Out manuever your enemy, not have to take a beating going toe to toe with them.
So instead of whining about it…get out of your mothers basement, join up and serve or shut the phuk up!
Hell you guys probably don’t even pay taxes anyways to be by-itchen in the first place how much that bird cost.
Awww, yeah I wanna ride to where they aren’t either, but you know how those plans ALWAYS work out real well.
Seems like you forgots the platform grew outta that thing we all–before everybody all signed up for a doctrinal history lobotomy–called the failed Iran Hostage Rescue Mission. Which was going to be a relatively closely-shaved thing no matter how it was sliced and diced.
The US military after many long and expensive years of work has developed the world’s first hermaphrodite aircraft.
It isn’t an airplane, it isn’t a helicopter, it isn’t armed, and it isn’t any good.
It is, on the other hand, horribly expensive.
This last fact is the prime criteria for anything purchased by the defense dept.
The defense dept. from what I have been told, is now working on building a mach 2 submarine aircraft carrier tank.
The cost, is at this time, undetermined. However this weapon will eliminate redundancies in the various branches of the service, and in effect render them all totally useless.
My estimate is that a few trillion dollars is all it would take to get one of these new weapons off the ground, under the water, and blasting its way across the Fulda Gap all at the same time.
This picture is not one that portrays the USMC in the way it likes to be shown.
The USMC is running away as fast as it can into an airplane.
Or has the USMC trained its Marines to advance into the enemy by walking backward?
Your kind comments are expected, and welcomed.
If the Pak gov’t has PR problems with US A/C crossing their airspace in large numbers can’t they just fly at night?
Not to mention it’s a sweet ass mother frickin’ bird, and with guns it only gets cooler!!! The enemy needs to know we’ve got the coolest toys, that’s the best thing for peace isn’t it?
Osprrey Deployment is very good news.
http://de.ogigames.com
Very good news.
http://ru.ogigames.com
This thing is a product of the military industrial complex. I doubt if it is capable of surviving the climatic conditions of Stan. The heat, the cold, dust and mud will wreak havoc on it’s moving parts and hydraulics. Is it manueverable enough to wend it’s way through the narrow passes and mountains? I fear it’s availability rates will will not it effective. There is a place for it but it is not Afghanistan.
It will be a sitting duck for a Stinger.
Dear shark 60;
This ” aircraft ” isn’t a sitting duck.
It is the after birth of a turkey.
I don’t really understand how the Osprey will be a “sitting duck” for a stinger any more than a Black Hawk, Chinook, or CH-53.
UP YOURS JONES. Post a valid location for yourself and see what happens.
@ Jones
I agree with Trevor, you are an idiot, I don’t know what your nationality is.…..but one way or another those “hero killers” are protecting you so you can get away with saying that.….
@ Jones
Those “hero killers”, are the only reason why you can say with out getting you tail whooped
If you yanks screw this F-35 project up please please don’t bother wasting anymore time and money trying to a fighter as you’ll only end up disapointing again and again.
Amazing to think you guys put a man on the moon when you look at your nation thesedays…
Whatever happened to not letting the nemy know what you’re doing?
Little wonder we’re losing… (idiots)
Enemy, not ‘nemy’ sorry. Point still satnds.
To Jones and the like,
I, as I’m sure the rest of the readers, would truly appreciate reading a more refined and educated comment posted on this thread. So please, take the time to collect your thoughts and write them down so you don’t come off as ignorant as you already do.
I can’t force you, nor would I try, to make you respond in a professional, educated manner. If you choose not to, then you show your true intelligence to the world. I appreciate debates from people who can present their opinions in a manner to stir thoughts and ideas regarding a program such as the Osprey.
At this point in my life, I am a bit envious of Marine pilots of the V-22 as they are on the cutting edge of operational aviation technologies. This aircraft is changing the face of military aviation, and I am excited to see where it goes.
But then again, what do I know about aviation. I’m just a 47D driver.
the osprey is at the zenith of aviation technology. yes it has some problems, so did the ch-46, which i flew from ’68 to ’71. anytime you take an aircraft into the sky you tempt fate. but the corps has great mechanics and pilots who can get the best performance from thir aircraft. ask any “grunt from “nam” how they felt when a “phrog” came in w/ bullets and beans or took them to r n r or medivacked. i beleive eventually the osprey will show similar results regardless of the naysayers!
jawIII(rotorhead)
the osprey is at the zenith of aviation technology. yes it has some problems, so did the ch-46, which i flew from ’68 to ’71. anytime you take an aircraft into the sky you tempt fate. but the corps has great mechanics and pilots who can get the best performance from thir aircraft. ask any “grunt from “nam” how they felt when a “phrog” came in w/ bullets and beans or took them to r n r or medivacked. i beleive eventually the osprey will show similar results regardless of the naysayers!
jawIII(rotorhead)
@ Dave,
It’s not so much the American people it’s just our politicians, John Kennedy put us on the moon
while SecDef Gates is stalling the F-35, by the way sorry to all about the double post
Dear Trevor;
My oh my! You are one scary dude.
Which is quite an accomplishment for somebody that is still in high school.
Keep playing with yourself.
You are funny.
Sincerely,
Jones
Dear Strummer;
You should definitely keep your day job.
Strumming a banjo in a fourth rate whore house is the kind of work that you were cut out for.
Sincerely,
Jones
Visit Bell and Boeing for their views on their V-22 product.
For the other side, all the problems are posted here: http://www.g2mil.com/scandal.htm
Lady’s and gents, the V-22 is here to stay, and it will prove it’s doubters wrong.…it’s a great asset, I’ve been very fortunate to see it in action and all the pilot’s/commanders that utilize the a/c love it for its speed and range.
By the way, no one will see it flying over Pakistan unless they can see to 20,000–25,000 feet and know what their looking at.…
Lady’s and gents, the V-22 is here to stay, and it will prove it’s doubters wrong.…it’s a great asset, I’ve been very fortunate to see it in action and all the pilot’s/commanders that utilize the a/c love it for its speed and range.
By the way, no one will see it flying over Pakistan unless they can see to 20,000–25,000 feet and know what their looking at.…
New technology is always a gamble; but you gotta pay for the capability. V-22 hasn’t gone over well since the repeated crashes of the ‘90s; though lately there haven’t been reports of crashes, so that might be a good thing.
Being in the military gives you more credibility than say, those that lack a military record. However, the people with last say about the Osprey should be those who will be going into combat in the Osprey, either as pilots or as infantry deploying from them. A correspondent who takes a ride is one thing, a pilot who flies the Osprey every day into combat is another.
I responded to a post, put the wrong name in, Please excuse me Trevor, it was Dave i was refering to in my delicate post. semper fi
I don’t doubt that the V-22 is a great a/c. Worse case scenario, its a troubled program that holds promise to deliver a great A/C. The question is, is it the right A/C for the corps to bet its rotary winged future on?
Considering Osprey’s cost, payload, and performance perameters, I’m going to have to go with, “not quite.“
I’m betting the plane is going to have a short to medium service run, and wind up being replaced by more conventionally formatted helicopters. Some of the inherent technologies might wind their way other platforms. Not a total disgrace, but not a game changing, long lasting, work horse either.
Oh, and that Jones Troll is an idiot. Probably gets his butt kicked weekly by the local Civil Air Patrol.
To all of you in here, I have a simple way to really annoy Jones, just don’t make comments back at him. He’s doing it specifically to piss people off, thats all. That being said, here are my thoughts on the PAK transit part. There is only one issue with them flying at night, if one goes down. Remember that during their first deployment, one of the birds had to make an emergency landing in Jordan on the way there. I doubt the Pakis want to have this bird do that here. Odds are it would come down in an area that “don’t take kindly” to US forces there.
I think that could be the biggest worry Pakistan has.
As for all the naysayers about the bird, just remember this, the following other weapon systems have been declared faulty and would never work: The M1, The A-10, The F-117, and the B-1. Now look at how good they are/were once people let them into combat. The same will probably be said about the Osprey.
As for them being down with maintenance issues, look at what the AH-64A Apaches had to go through to even work in Operation Desert Storm.
Gates obviously wants the bird there in A-stan for a reason. Give the guy some credit that he might just know a thing or two about what is needed to get the job done.
I still think they are just going to use it as a pick-up truck to move stuff from FOBs to the COPs without having to utilize a convoy. This could be part of the counterinsurgency strategy. Our convoys are big, bulky, and have a lot of intimidation factors with them when rolling down the roads. If by using the Osprey we can reduce the amount of times we need to intimidate the population by running a convoy, then this could play to our advantage.
This system will also keep troops further out of harms way, there by negating many of the roadside bombs, rocket attacks, and ambushes that each convoy might have to face.
Final thought: We got the system, it is going there whether you like it or not. I would rather be hoping for the success of this system than cheerleading about it being a failure when marine lives will be at stake with it.
I see that Bell-Boeing salesmen “talking points” appear amongst these posts. Those who really know the program want to end production now since the V-22 costs twice a much as comparable helos, but has one-quarter their payload and less range, and are broke down half the time. Far better options are MH-47Fs or CH-53Ks, which are heavyweight class helos that are smaller than the V-22. (empty weight) How to respond?
You tell everyone that the V-22 is here to stay, nothing can be done now, and anyone who points out the lies and fraud involved with this program is demeaning the military and insulting Marines. So shut up!
@Ed
They also said the missile defense program would never work. That’s the one that really kills me. Makes me wonder who “they” really is?
In other news a helicopter has crashed and killed 12 people, and it wasn’t a V-22. Could we pay you to ride in that one CJ?
Man,why ever give info out on a “War Unit?” It’s suicide.…
To Jimmy,
You have every fact wrong about the V-22. The V-22 has a faster speed, higher service ceiling, heavier payload, and longer range than the CH-46 or CH-53, and even as better range, speed, and payload, than the CH-47. I also noticed another thing about the V-22. It can carry an M-777 howitzer. You know, the one that can fire an excaliber round 40km and hit within 10 meters of its target? The same one that can be manned by only 5 guys instead of 9 and weighs almost a ton less than the current 155mm howitzer?
Think about that folks. Why would we want a bird that can carry the M-777 in Afghanistan? Oh, wait, thats right, the Taliban have learned to fear it.
I have also seen what the GAO said about the V-22, 68% were combat ready at any given time. They were declared deployment ready then. I think its time the Thunder Chicken prooved itself.
The subject A/C is a proven killer of its occupants. Its acq program was full of gross mismanagement and something other than truth-telling to the Congress and the taxpayers. The Marines have got to shield and baby this turkey, grossly swelling its o&m costs. But I presume, as per usual, the books will be cooked. Further, urgent and political opsec will ensure that the public never sees the limited performance in Afgh, so it can then be mythified. My mouth brims with vomit at the thought of our brave fighting Gyrenes forced to travel in this deathtrap, without even a gun except the POSrigged in its nose recently.
I just feel for the marine lying with a sucking chest wound that has to wait an extra few hours for the medivac because the money that could have bought 5 helicopters that could have doubled the coverage and halved he evacuation time, went into the gold bathtub that sits on ground in New River looking oh so cool.
For all the f’d up things that went on with this project, how the hell do we get them to theatre? Yeah, they are gonna fly low enough, but theres gotta be part of PAK where they can fly, at nite, and get there. As for the M-777..damn thats a fine piece of arty, and that PGM it fires is like “God’s Hammer”..yeah, bring it on..i do feel we are under resourced in a-stan, have been for YEARS..and good men die..some days i really get f’d up about it. So much frustration…my kid is young, but damn I want him, if he decides, to be backed up as much as possible. Some-, no, MOST of the time ya make do with wat ya got. Improvise, adapt..its gonna be really rough.
There are more V-22’s in service flying more hours than ever. Where are all the crashes and casualties?
Firing 105mm’s out of an aicraft is nothing very new.
I know that the USAF did it in 1971, and probably did it earlier than that.
Prior to that they fired, depending upon the aircraft, a combination of 40mm, 20mm, and .762 mm.
It was usualy enough to get things going in the better direction.
Spector.