Warning folks, this will get your blood boiling. And you talk about a flashback to 1986…
An alert DT reader tipped me off to this video reportedly taken by Taliban insurgents before and during the assault on Wanat. Looking at it makes you wonder how the US base wasn’t totally overrun given the insurgents’ commanding attack position and the interlocking fields of fire.
These were clearly tactically savvy, well disciplined militants who’d done their homework. My question is how were they even allowed to setup on the outpost in the first place? Where’s the overwatch? Where are the patrols?
See the video package HERE.
On another note, I have been pushing to get the Ganjgal report from ISAF and just received word that the investigation isn’t complete. I’ll keep on it, but if anyone has better intel on that please use the “SEND IT” button to the left…
– Christian
Can someone tell me why we are borrowing billions from the Chinese to defend a useless remote wasteland on the other side of the Earth ?
texas oil baron answer request!
You are starting to sound like an anti-Semite.
The base was not overrun for one simple reason…it was manned by US Marines.
You’re wrong, Wanat was manned by Army Airborne troops.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wanat
Correction, reading the reports, there actually were 2 Marine ETT’s embedded with the Airborne unit. My bad.
38 paratroopers from 2nd Plt, Chosen Company, 173rd Abn
6 combat engineers
3 Marine ETT advising 24 Afghan National Army troops
All arrived at the site 4 days prior to the attack. They were low on water, had limited engineer material for protection. They had 5 up-armored HMMWVs with two .50 cal, two 40 mm grenade launchers, a TOW, and dismounted 120mm and 60mm mortars. Plus they had priority 155mm fires that impacted within 6 minutes and B-2 bombs that impacted within 8 minutes proving that fire and air support are not the complete answer due to danger close criteria. It was a hurried COP change 9 day prior to completing a 15 month tour.
They were in the valley because Wanat was in the valley. Two previously closed COPs had also been in the valley near towns.
My typo. Bombs were dropped by a B-1B…along with 861 other bombs dropped and 36,225 indirect fire rounds sent down range in the prior year+ proving once again that bombing and artillery is not the full answer.
Thee marines does not qualify the base as “defended by marines”. Unless you buy into that “but there was two of them” joke…
that defies description. you’re exactly right. whoever ordered them to setup at that location is making mistakes that aren’t allowed even in boot camp. boy scouts know better. if it was imperative then you’re right again.…foot patrols like crazy…box barrages to keep them safe. t
that’s a depressing piece of footage, and i’m glad you posted it, i’m glad i watched it but its another (on top of the victory at the base) propaganda victory for the Taliban.
It wasn’t a victory for the Taliban at the base and it is only a propaganda victory when our own media makes it one for them.
First rounds had to be 500-600m away from the COP perimeter in the adjacent mountains. Bombs also had to be distant. In some cases they were within 50m of the concertina perimeter when fires were initiated. Foot patrols could have been conducted by the ANA. US troops lacked water and were prepping the COP as best they could.
As mentioned, if you are conducting counterinsurgency to protect the population you must be adjacent to the population, even if that means in a valley. They were just a little bit TOO adjacent and too vulnerable which may be why we are no longer there. But COP Bella and COP Ranch House had also been in valley along th same north-south running river valley. They just had more time to prepare the COP.
Nothing about counterinsurgency demands you place soldiers in highly vulnerable positions without also commanding the high ground and avenues of approach. Lack of sufficient troop numbers may demand it though.
Does seem like a bad location for an outpost though, peaks overlooking it on several sides.…it’s also concerning that the Taliban operate so freely and where is our SIGINT to monito what these guys are planning??
Predator UAS support was pulled away the prior day by the inbound 101st division staff. In their defense, they thought the most dangerous part of moving the COP was over. But a local had specifically asked the company commander if they had UAS support the night before the attack. The battalion S-2 had fought to keep the Predator.
This situation is exactly why the Army needs organic satellite-capable UAS support and smaller organic systems like the RQ-16 T-Hawk. Raven was available but not used perhaps because of the narrow river valley. T-Hawk could have hovered overhead at stand-to and had line-of-sight with Camp Blessing so they could see events.
I know the media likes to report about how the Taliban ‘openly’ patrol the roads. I wonder how ‘openly’ that is. If they are operating like that it seems to me it would be an easy target to exploit with scouts, UCAVs and indirect fire. We certainly know how to lay ambushes as well. Of course I suppose we are with the drone strikes in Pakistan.
Wanat was about 8 kms from the main base at Camp Blessing. Only about 6.5 kms of road was optimal. A ground QRF did arrive relatively rapidly despite the IED threat. They fired into draws near known IED locations to deter manual IED detonations. The presence of a road for resupply was a primary reason to move the COP from its previous location that required aerial resupply.
Ok, I’m no General Schwarzkopf, but sending a dozen guys to camp out in hostile territory at the bottom of a ravine seems tactically brain dead to me. Had they been on high ground, they would have faired considerably better.
Question is, why did they chose such a bad tactical location? Bad officers? Or is the quality of training poor, so they simply didn’t know any better? Or worse, sheer laziness: they didn’t want to take the trouble to hike up the mountainside to establish the more advantageous CP?
I’m very upset to see our troops die for apparently stupid reasons.
This site had been negotiated for 10 months much to the town’s dislike. They wanted the U.S. to just take a site so the Taliban could not accuse locals of conspiring with us.
10th ID was there in 2006 at the same site and built two bridges and got along fine with locals. Whether true, or justified or not, there were numerous things alleged that the 173rd did differently than 10th ID to irritate the locals. There is absolutely no doubt that 173rd was more kinetic than 10th ID.
We are no longer there in those valleys, but do we abandon all valleys? What do you influence from mountaintops? You watch locals walk by in valley below and have no idea if they are Taliban. You get in firefights with unseen enemies on the side of the mountain opposite you in the valley. Do you want to climb the mountain everyday to visit villagers? How do you resupply the mountaintop with limited helicopters?
Are we running a howdy doody show there or are we fighting a war? we need boots on the ground… surge their asses till they shit buttermilk. four brigades? Make that eight to ten.
Why do we need these mountains as long as we secure Khyber pass? Can’t we protect larger populations in cities that have more influence like Kandahar? Doesn’t Helmand province need attention and it has easier terrain to defend and most of the attacks like Kandahar. Khost? Ghazni? Kabul? Jalabad? Herat? Mazur a Sharif? Oruzgan province? There are lots of other places we can establish ink blot settlements that make other areas envious.
Harder to resupply when you’re up on a ridge is the reasoning I bet. Seems like the Long Range Reconnaisance Patrol (LRRP) concept of operations they used in Vietnam would work well in Afghanistan back by air support.
ABC news acting as reporters for the enemy. Surprise, surprise.
Having sad that, I agree with the first poster. Operation: USELESS DIRT 1 isn’t worth the effort.
Why is ABC “acting as reporters for the enemy’? I don’t understand that at all. Don’t you think that we as citizens should be interested in stories such as that since it affects us all, in particular those with family over there???
Do you want the media to report nothing but sunshine and good news?? Personally I want all sides of every story, the more information the better. That way I can attempt to make informed decisions for my self.
Wrong Web-site.
Do you really think that “Defense Tech” would EVER have aired any Resistance footage, if the mainstream press hadn’t done it before them, thus white-washing (“officially clearing”) it for these cyber-warriors of the Reichspropaganda Ministry? Do you?! These guys here even have trouble posting links to images of destroyed U.S. American tanks, THAT’S how much they want to inform you about REALITY !!! “Smells like… victory!”
Hey libtard, try lying less and shutting up more. So you want to post a picture of an Abrams that was damaged, abandoned, and destroyed by a Hellfire or Maverick ATGM? Big deal. More than 90% of the time the crew survives, the number of tanks destroyed (not just damaged or knocked out) has been small, and we have well over 8000 Abrams anyway. Many of them are just in storage!
To the poster “William C.” :
You wrote: “Hey libtard,…”
Repug, haven’t you taken Dick Cheney’s “H1N1 vaccine” yet?
Can I suggest a book called the circuit I think by Bob Shepard. Its about his work on the as a ‘security consultant’ (or whatever the pc term is this week). He brings up a couple of visits to US bases over there that you might find interesting. My personal opinion is that US troops have no shortage of guts & bravery but some tricks are being missed here that are costing lives.
We need more counter ambushes and ambushes of are own to strike keep them from operating without fear.
OMG, did I just find myself agreeing with Zandor? I did! I did!
At least the North Vietnamese were able to over run a few U.S. outpost. This superior numbered 4 sided attack did not achieve this, with the end result of them being repealed, at a cost though. Yes, I agree, 9 soldiers is to high of a cost, and whoever planned this base should be held 100% accountable
>This superior numbered 4 sided attack did not achieve this
When a side in a prepared position with heavy air support cant hold the wire against a force only twice it’s size armed with nothing heavier than mortars — that’s a rout in anyone’s book, even the losing side in Vietnam’s.
Except they outnumbered them by more than 2x, had the high ground, and the defenders were not in a very “prepared” position. A prepared positions involves plenty of defenses and heavy weapons, both of which were lacking. This was not a built up firebase by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree. Not only the Infantry failed. The Airforce and the artillery failed too. They should also be investigated, but you know… “U.S. American investigations” and their reports…
See my earlier comments about artillery and bombs landing within minutes. The Apaches took an hour flying quite some distance but were able to fire 30mm much closer to endangered troops. A ground QRF also made a heroic drive over a dangerous road, and drove right smack into town to engage the Taliban at point blank!
Forget 1986, go back to FSB Mary Ann in 1971.
Welcome to Christian’s regularly scheduled Friday Red Meat Post ©.
Any anger I have is directed towards the ABC-supported ‘New Vietnam’ meme that is apprently emerging to help the Ditherer-In-Chief stop fiddling and choose Cut and Run over any CentCom victory plan. Neo-Nero will no doubt choose poorly if ABC etal get their way.
Hate the no-website entry design BTW
if you put a few dozen soldiers in the hills far from help what else do you think is going to happen????? did you not try that in vietnam???? come on american everybody knows you are smarter than that.They know they out number you and help is to far away.I won’t say what to do because i am not in military but there has to be a better way than that,it looked stupid.Stay safe the rest of you over there
” How do you resupply the mountaintop with limited helicopters?”
Excuse me? Have we become so dense. It’s called a mule. And I’m not talking about some stupid techo-bable multi-million dollar pie in the sky contraption cooked up by desk jockies at the DoD. I’m taking about a $50 dollar animal (if that in Afghanistan) that can haul a ton of cargo up mountainsides for nothing more than a sugar cube.
The whole thing was leadership clusterfuck and laziness.
I’ve seen mules carry some pretty amazing loads, but an excavator to fill the HESCOs, 500 gallon drums of fuel, and 250 gallon drums of water isn’t quite up to their capabilities. Remember, we are talking about 4 days into COP construction, so those mules would have had to move mighty quick before the attack…
You still have not addressed how the mountaintop COP has any clue what is going on down below.…6000′ lower. When they get there on patrol what stops the enemy from opening up with friendlies having zero cover?
I believe what you may be looking for is called a cable wire or wire rope thingie. Fastened to the top of the hill and the bottom, it is a mechanical or electric contraption for transporting stuff. Some hill farmers use it for haystacks and the occasional mailbox.
Also known as the scourge of helicopters and the Darwin of people who think they are Batman.
I wonder why I have never heard about it used in Afghanistan.
Dear DualityOfan;
Fsb Marry Ann was, and is, an example of what is going to happen to the USA.
Hubris, complacency, incompetence, death, and then denial.
The USA has become an utter disgrace.
I want to vomit.
To the poster “Cole” :
You wrote:“See my earlier comments about artillery and bombs landing within minutes. The Apaches took an hour flying quite some distance but were able to fire 30mm much closer to endangered troops.”
Don’t amuse us.
1) The battle lastet for four hours.
Can’t you fucking see?! The battle was filmed by day AND by night!
2) “Between 21 and 52 militants were reported killed with another 20 to 40 wounded, but coalition forces found only two Taliban bodies after the battle.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Wanat#The_...
Before you howl that “the Talibans obviously removed their dead after the battle” : Then how did the U.S. Armed Forces even count “21 – 52 Talibans” in the first place, if reinforcements didn’t arrive in time at the outpost until only half an occupant was left?
P.S.: What kind of observation post is built at the deepest part of a valley?
One thing the 173rd allegedly did in an earlier fight was place bodies someplace while waiting in ambush for them to be recovered. That did not win friends. Neither did Hellfire shots that killed the valley’s medical staff in 2 fleeing trucks on July 4th, nine days before the Wanat attack. But the vehicles also held fleeing mortarmen and the fires stopped afterwards. As mentioned, 861 bombs, some of which appeared to strike homes, did not help…which may be why the current “bomb at last resort” policy is in place. But in fairness, the Nuristanis did many bad things too.
The OP was not in the deepest part of the valley and was observing a draw to the east of the COP. It was atop the 6th stepped plateau and small stone walls held up each steppe prevented vehicle and engineer equipment access. The OP location probably was a mistake and the company commander had already spoken with the lieutenant about moving it once the COP was better established. Hindsight is easy. The last 9 days of a 15 month tour is hard.
One thing the 173rd allegedly did in an earlier fight was place bodies someplace while waiting in ambush for them to be recovered. That did not win friends. Neither did Hellfire shots that killed the valley’s medical staff in 2 fleeing trucks on July 4th, nine days before the Wanat attack. But the vehicles also held fleeing mortarmen and the fires stopped afterwards. As mentioned, 861 bombs, some of which appeared to strike homes, did not help…which may be why the current “bomb at last resort” policy is in place. But in fairness, the Nuristanis did many bad things too.
The OP was not in the deepest part of the valley and was observing a draw to the east of the COP. It was atop the 6th stepped plateau and small stone walls held up each steppe prevented vehicle and engineer equipment access. The OP location probably was a mistake and the company commander had already spoken with the lieutenant about moving it once the COP was better established. Hindsight is easy. The last 9 days of a 15 month tour is hard.
The camp had been there since 2006 IIRC, but I’m not sure what purpose it really had at this point in time. I’ve read comments from troops there several years ago that the site was clearly a death trap then. When you only have a platoon the amount of patrolling you can do is pretty limited, and they barely held the camp with everyone inside the wire.
“As an analogy, you have a building on fire, and it’s got a bunch of firemen inside. There are not enough firemen to put it out. You have to send in more or you have to leave. It is not appropriate to stand outside pontificating about not taking lightly the responsibility of sending firemen into harm’s way. Either put in enough firemen to put the fire out or get out of the house. That is my analogy of where we are. Either of those approaches could potentially work.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/12/obama-us-troops-afghanistan-kilcullen
Good comments Kevin. An engineer lieutenant and his troops had occupied the same Wanat site in 2006 to construct two Bailey bridges for the locals. They bought bread and other supplies from locals, hired them to build the bridges, used them for laundry service and generally treated them decently and got along fine. 10th ID had started their tour with Operation Mountain Lamb to provide Nuristanis and Pashtuns freebies from the get-go without a carrot-stick approach.
In fairness, there were numerous other pretty major attacks against the 173rd in the 15 months they were there. The worst prior to Wanat occurred in Nov 2007 when returning to COP Bella, the old COP location just north of Wanat, after a Shura. Five Sky Soldiers, 1 Marine, and 2 ANA were killed in that ambush. The CSM’s son was also killed when they first arrived, and a popular Plt Sgt was killed by an Afghan guard…after they fired his boss.
You are dead on about the patrols and limited troops. The platoon was grumbling about having to patrol and build a COP with minimal outside support and few personnel. They had planned to patrol that day with the ANA but we know what happened instead.
FFB, the first shots were fired at 0420 local…near daybreak, when troops were in their fighting positions for “stand to.” Like I said, bombs and artillery don’t cure everthing. It was a long fight.
Suggest you and others google “The Road to Wanat” (4 Oct version) and scroll down to see the diagram. If you create two windows or have two screens, compare the diagram to parts of the video. The tall multi-story building is the hotel north of the COP and northwest of the OP. The low one story building on the opposite side of the road is the bazaar that is on fire by the end. The smoking hull in the middle of the COP is the TOW Hummer. The C-shaped building is where the commander’s CP HMMWV was parked.
A few months ago, when this story started to first bounce around, I asked just why did the US military place an under manned unit in a position where it could be fired upon from above.
Now, after viewing this video, I know why.
These soldiers weren’t dug into fighting holes. These hero troopers were living in buildings.
It is, is it not, so much easier to live in a building complex ( no work ) at the bottom of a narrow valley, than it is to move your ass up the hill and dig into a ( much work ) fighting position.
The leaders that were in charge of this fiasco should be Court Marshaled, and then hanged.
” Total incompetence ” would be an understatement.
I have a one eyed senile parrot that exhibits more intelligence and foresight than the US leaders of this gang bang did.
Jesus H. Christ!
Don’t comment when you are clueless about the facts. They were dug in as best they could…2′ to 4′ deep despite little water in the July heat with hard rocky ground. They had relatively few HESCO barriers used to protect the 120mm mortar, a latrine, and a traffic control point where the road was next to the COP on the south.
The OP had several boulders for protection but only a single strand of concertina. The COP was specifically excluded from using a C-shaped structure to “live” in but were smart enough to use it for cover with the C2 HMMWV and .50 cal.
If there is an “incompetence” lesson learned (easy in retrospect and not being there) it was not going in whole hog with engineers and HESCO from the get go. Vehicles could have been HESCOed in to prevent immediate destruction. The TOW HMMWV went first. The 120 mm mortar went second with low 4′ HESCO protection. The bad guys are not dumb and use RPGs as their version of artillery in tremendous volleys.
It is very sad to note that there were few HESCO barriers to protect the latrine.
I am sure that the USA should be able to buy a few more HESCOs, after all, compared to an aircraft carrier, a HESCO is probably cheap.
By the way, what is a HESCO? Is it a device used only to protect latrines, or can a HESCO protect other vital buildings, like the mess hall for example?
The point is, that when you sit your ass down at the bottom of a gulch in the middle of indian territory, you will get your ass shot at by the indians.
The US Army might want to put this fact on its West Point cirriculam.
The course title should be, ” Why do non West Point super ring knocker people continue to believe that water runs down hill ?”
Why was a base that had been established for so long been kept in such a poor state (defensively) for so long? Is it a case that they hadn’t been hit in the years that its been there? Local sensitivity? I don’t know but if you do Cole please give.
It had not been there more than 4 days when it was attacked. Engineers had occupied the same site in 2006 but left.
The 5 HMMWVs drove in the night of 8–9 July, started from scratch, and were attacked the early morning of 13 July. Some of the engineer equipment and the ANA personnel were flown in by Chinook. The intent was to replace a closing base at COP Bella with the new COP at Wanat which had better road access for resupply and was the district center.
BTW, all my facts come from the Douglas Cubbison’s 249-page study, various articles, and the informally published 15–6 investigation. Read and study those and you know what I know.
I’m not going to question the integrity of the Soldiers at the outpost but I will question there Commanders. I have always been taught that physical courage is easy, moral courage hard. This is a perfect example. Someone in the command structure knew that was a death trap. More importantly we also know that it served no strategic purpose or else it would not have been abandoned. I say again. Someone needs to be fired.
It did serve a stratigic purpose, as it was moved there to protect the local leaders of the town from the taliban.
Think ABC is bad, read the Washington Post on a regular basis…pure liberal propaganda.
While I agree and nothing is more pathetic than leftist self flagellation and defeatism, shutting them up amounts to fascism and that is so repulsive it alone justifies letting them say whatever they like, and being happy they are allowed to.
Doesn’t mean we can’t laugh at them though.
To the poster “Cole” :
You wrote: “…the first shots were fired at 0420 local…near daybreak, when troops were in their fighting positions for ‘stand to’. … It was a long fight.”
Listening to so many people who admire the Talibans’ preparations for this attack I almost wonder why they didn’t even isolate the outpost completely from reinforcements, for as long as they wished:
1) By placing I.E.D.‘s and snipers all around the outpost,
2) by previously blowing deep holes into the street, at some bottlenecks along the 8 kms long road to Camp Blessing,
3) by pinning down the forces at Camp Blessing themselves with diversionary fire
4) or simply the old, cheap, super-effective, battle-proven (anti-Roman Army) way: By burying the road under heaps of large rocks loosened on the mountain slopes (and some I.E.D.‘s hidden between them, he he he) !
I guess they must have developed some sort of “tunnel vision”, fixating themselves exclusively on the target in their midst…
I think they figured they would devote all their resources to a quick knockout blow against the base, instead of splitting up their preparations. That and the more things you attempt to do at once, the easier it is to be detected. For instance, if your rockslide teams are detected then you lose the advantage of surprise.
The few Americans that voluntarily list have often acquitted themselves to the best of their ability. Maybe mistakes happen in war, but we’ll see if the military even bothers to look into the matter. Consider this: did anyone lose their jobs over the numerous misjudgements that occured during WW2 or Korea? When did the accountability begin to change?
If you go back to the Civil War, General’s were fired.…If you go to WW2 I know for sure that an Admiral was fired and so was at least one General…It seems that right after Korea, the idea of firing General’s went out of style. But in my opinion the General Officers in service now have a higher standard to live up to. They saw similar missteps taken in Vietnam…they promised that it would never happen again…that’s why Powell came up with his doctrine.
Lets be real here. Toss the politics and talking points out the window. Pace was a lap dog, Rummy was operating with the same “metrics” type approach that McNamera had and the Revolt of the General’s tells us that those people wearing stars in the Pentagon knew better.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20061016/whalen
Yeah that was written in 2006. This cluster should have been unscrewed by now.
Solomon, President Obama replaced General McKiernan not long ago. President Bush expedited General Abizaid’s departure as CENTCOM commander and Admiral Fallon departed even more rapidly. What is it you think justifies firing an Army General at the moment? The fact that he asked for more forces and assets to do the job that indirectly caused an incident not even under his watch?
No him asking for more forces and assets is not the problem but maybe his implementation of the forces he has needs to be examined.
His rules of engagement are a travesty. His orders have caused paralysis in the thinking of his subordinates when they have forces that are engaged with the enemy.
In my opinion he has lost the respect of those he has been given the honor to lead. Its time for him to go.
As for those that came before and were able to slink out without being held to account for the trouble that they unleashed on the US military, I think at the least a letter of admonishment entered into their record books would be a worthwhile exercise.
The splitting of the baby in Afghanistan ‚—command wise—is not that smart a move. If Gen P. needs to be dual hatted let him wear the CENTCOM and other command hats in Afghanistan and the region but the current commander is not getting the job done.
It looks like 14 different segments of video with some looping. Is that ABC’s editing or the crappy Taliban video?
Taliban realy kicked ass.But what did you expect if US military pays taliban via various Karzai family companys 100+mio per year for safe passage of supply trucks .Taliban never had so much cash at their disposal cash means they can get both men and weapons.Is seems afghanistans goverment can only be as corrupt as US forces and companys working for them, afghanis long realised US likes solving problems by throwing cash at them ‚would be stupid if they didnt stuff their pockets . Imagine how WWII would run if you would be paying of the Japnese and Germans for safe passage of suplys.
The biggest problem is these clowns can just stroll to the Paki side and relax and re-arm. I’m not sure any level of surge is going to be effective if the Pakis don’t take care of their side of the border. I’m not as worried about govt corruption in Kabul as I am about laziness in Islamabad. Heck, we have corruption here in DC and it doesn’t mean the sky is falling. The Demorats are using this govt/election thing BS as an excuse to go soft on the Pakis and to cut and run. I believe a prominent member of their party was just sentenced to 13 years in prison if they’re so concerned about corruption how about they worry about it in their own party more.
Dear STemplar;
The biggest problem x 1 million is that we clowns can’t stay on our side of the border.
Since when has it become our business to patrol the world?
But I guess if the USA has a gigantic military, it is sort of a shame not to use it.
The USA, with its endless military erection will always be involved in an endless search of things to use its hardware on.
Sort of like a 20 year old boy, with his pockets filled with $ 100 bills and Viagra tablets in a $ 5 whore house.
Sheer madness, operating under the guise of patriotism, provides the excuse, and it makes us feel good too.
The USA is the largest terrorist organization on the earth.
And when the victims fight back we blame them for doing so, and then rape them again.
The USA is going to get its massive cock shortened up soon.
And the sooner it happens the better.
Good one. You don’t know what prosperity the world has since the rise of the USA. We should probably go back to an empire type system were Britain controls most of the world?
You sound like an ignorant fool who supports
Nazism
Hitler
Communism
Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong
Terrorist activities
Anarchy, genocide,
Aggressive countries,
Everything the U.S. has fought against.
We see where you stand, its clear.
Dear Mike;
I ask you, how could I support both Hitler and Stalin. They didn’t exactly get along with each other, or being ” an ignorant fool ” that you say I am, perhaps you know more than I do.
I seem to recall that Germany and the USSR had a quarrel with each other during the first half of the 1940s. It got to such a point that people were even killed.
I quote you, ” Everything the U.S. has fought against.”
I ask you, when and where did the USA fight Stalin, or Pol Pot?
As far a fighting against ” Aggressive countries ” is concerned, I ask you how many countries has the USA invaded in the last 30 years, and then point out to me a country that has invaded more.
How many innocent Iraqi, and Afghan civilians has the USA killed?
Iraq, and Afghanistan were better off before the USA started to straighten things out.
George Bush is responsible for killing more Iraqis than Saddam Hussein ever did, and in a far shorter amount of time.
By the way, Saddam Hussein received what he deserved, he was hanged.
I am aghast at the ignorance and willful stupidity evident in this post.
Dear atadoff;
I don’t think Mike is being willfully stupid.
Give him a break.
I don’t think folks are stupid on purpose, unless, of course they are really, really stupid.
Maybe I can touch you up on your history a little bit. There was a little incident on the Korean Peninsula in the early part of the 1950’s involving communist forces backed heavily by Russia (even Russian pilots and “aids”, who at that time were led by someone called Joseph Stalin, the General Secretary of Russia.
Have you heard of the Khmer Rouge? Yes, that is a communist faction that was run by Pol Pot.
Does “Containment” ring a bell?
The insurgents, terrorist, etc have killed far more civilians then the Americans have hoped to kill by friendly fire. Maybe your think due to the fact we are there that we are responsible for other people killing innocent people? Didn’t a Iraqi wedding get blown up a few months ago?
Yes, the U.S. has invaded countries over the last 30years to support these policies. Communism is the biggest by man kind in recorded history, and by stating that America has done more harm then good by using the containment policy is scary.
The USA fought against the N. Koreans, and then later in the war the Chinese Army.
It takes a stretch of the imagination to say that the USA was engaged against the USSR.
The USSR supplied the Chinese, and had been supplying them for a long time before the Korean war ever started.
The USSR certainly provided a few advisers to the Chinese, that doesn’t by any means mean the the USA was fighting the USSR.
By the way, the USSR ( Joe Stalin ) was the USA’s Allie in WW2.
“Iraq, and Afghanistan were better off before the USA started to straighten things out”
That is an unfounded statement. Saddam Hussein’s government did not allow internetional journalists into the country, let alone let them move about freely or report what they saw– therefore your claim is completely speculatory at best. Fact is after we invaded the country was flooded with journalists looking for any story thety could find, and any given day they would show one burning palm tree while 10,000 grew healthy in the sun.
Saddam fostered a society of unspeakable brutality and when we freed them they were like freeing a zoo’s animals– they will eventually sort it out but blaming Bush for long simmering sectarian violence is silly. If a family abuses its children do you look away or intervene? Will you blame someone for breaking up the family or let daddy continue to molest the children?
Seems like a good example of how the talibs cannot win, but we can loss, through piss-poor management.
Seems to be true of where-ever America puts boots on the ground.
There wasn’t any artillery or air support. They were left to fend for themselves for hours. Any fratboy college student can tell you that throwing water balloons from the third floor is much easier than throwing them UP to the third floor. Dien Bein Phu comes to mind.
Policies referring to “containment”.
biggest Killer*
Sorry typing fast.
Could somebody please ban this mentally ill Zandor guy. We really don’t need brainwashed terrorist-loving, America-bashing, morons who want us to slash down our military to nothing.
Dear William C.;
Spoken like a true American patriot, congratulations!
What is it about The First Amendment that you find objectionable?
Ad hominem attacks are the first sign that someone is losing the debate.
Hey Zander, this is the INTERNET.
Williams, Give the guy a break.
You can see where people like him stand, and they all have the same qualities. It is good for us to understand this.
Also zander you said “attacks are the first sign that someone is losing the debate” well, just about every post of yours is bashing or attacking something, so I’ll have to agree with you.
You, as usual, missed the point completely.
Ciao.
Enlighten me.
I agree with your assessment of him and feel his comments are off topic and silly. I do not however feel that silencing or banning him is consistent with the American ideals we promote which include free speech. Even for dimwits.
How is it that the enemy was able to move at least one heavy machine gun along with ammunition into position and set it up (immediately or later) w/o anyone spotting said movement and setup?
The positioning of that outpost is as bad as Operation Nifty Package in Panama was with SEAL team 4. I am not disrespecting the Navy SEALS but even they know what happened there. How do you setup an outpost at the bottom of a hill like that and not have folks in overwatch positions? That looks as bad as George Washington’s first fort defense where he cleared the forest around the fort, but only at a short distance that allowed the enemy to fire from the tree line and have cover and concealment.
This was also a force of US Marines? They are trained to be infantry first, how did they decide this was a good position?
A couple people have already mentioned the following points.
Honestly, this incident is completely embarrassing and sad for the Army troops positioned there.
The taliban had, what 4, positions surrounding the soldiers with the advantage of higher ground.
Secondly as another poster pointed out as well why haven’t we learned from history. This same situation has been played out time and time again in Vietnam. Setting up small bases far away from support and a pain in the ass to resupply is just another lesson that should have been learned. This happened to the US in Vietnam and happened to the French in Vietnam. How many times are you going to let this happen before you realize this is a huge mistake.
Whoever set that base up should be fired.
I’m going to add this…the LT’s that fought in Vietnam are now the General’s leading this effort.
They’re making the same mistakes there forefathers did. AMAZING>!
ive sent this in to be added to the article but ill post it here now for those debating to gobble up:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b11_1258311346
adds more information and footage (has another news piece after the abc one in the article)
helis didnt arrive for some time (to contradict what one of the guys was saying in the comments here). the base was there to cut off taliban ‘infiltration’ from pakistan and, looking at the geography, it does seem to be smack bang pretty much in between the meeting of several valleys.
not such a good idea putting an outpost with little support and few men in the way of a taliban highway (better yet at the bottom of these meeting valleys) if the infil thing is true.…was inevitable that this would happen really.
So i follow previous sentiments: what the hell were commanders thinking when they set this place up below hillsides on 3 sides on an enemy highway.
Maybe a bigger outpost would have led to the Taliban shutting down that route entirely, and deterred an attack entirely. But there’s a finite troop budget.
for what appears to have been such an important route though, one would assume more assets would have been put into keeping it closed. Not just about soldiers though; Medieval kings didnt put their castles in the bottom of a valley to close such valleys, they put them high up the hillside. Its a basic rule of war not to put stationary structures in such an indefensible position :/ From those heights they could dominate the valley(s).
On top of that, the link i provided explains their surveillance support in the form of UAVs, were taken away just prior to this attack occuring — air support (apaches in this case) could well have made a major difference had knowledge of such a large scale attack had been known beforehand if they turned up half an hour earlier etc.
The Video was obtained by a non-profit group called NEFA Foundation (nine eleven finding answers). A friend of mine who works with NEFA told me over two years ago that the Taliban were going to make a come back in Afghanistan.
All information they obtain via their sources are forwarded on to DOJ, DOD, etc…
If you’re interested in the fight on terror check out their web site at: http://www.nefafoundation.org
Isn’t it wonderful how our own western media do the enimies propaganda work for them, the Taliban most love it!
Second correction. The B-1B dropped its first bomb 38 minutes after the first enemy shots. That was kind of slow at their speeds but no JTAC was on hand.
The enemy of my enemy is my friend, but still my enemy. The Allience dissolved right after WW2 ended, so it is irrelevent and worthless to point out. Remeber the cold war?
It takes no stretch of the imagination to say the USA was engaged against the USSR, as we were fighting directly against their pilots. They were willing to expend lives of their own country men in the cause.
The USA had been supplying the Chinese with military equipment a long time before the kroean war ever started..
I support the Texans and the Cowboys, I believe they played against each other at one point..