It appears that DT has a fan at Heritage Foundation, Baker Spring, gender not known. He is quoting from my post above. of course with out credit either to DT, Joe Buff or myself. As I sometimes do I, included an incorrect piece of information in my post, Baker Spring doesn’t do fact check. I see.

As usual they make a winger spin out of it, which has nothing to do with the intent of what I wrote.

As I’ve always suspected these neo-antebellum “conservative” think tanks have no intellectual foundations and only rip and read what others are saying. The are the people that have been determining US defense policy since the Reagan era. It’s time to get rid of these public parasites.

Just for the right wing nuts out there who try and defend this intellectual trash. Did you know that this very same Heritage Foundation who is taking money to doubt global warming, a couple of months ago got a $175,000.00 contract from Exxon Corp. to get Exxon contracts for “Green Projects” from President Obama’s economic stimulus package. It appears that the only philosophical position that the Heritage Foundation is take the money not any well grounded Conservatism.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

First to respond to Best Observer:

You pose some interesting questions. I will address China’s economy. While China has experienced what in economic terms only as phenomenal it is showing signs of coming to a crushing halt.

To backtrack her a second, the GDP of China in dollars is reported to be between $6-$8 trillion at a 6% annual growth, or third largest economy in the world in the world behind Japan with about a $10 trillion GDP. The US mean while reports a $14 trillion GDP which as last Fall unmasked is a low ball number and a real US GDP is more likely is $22.4 trillion. Using the “old” accounts rule of 72 for the Chinese economy and using the high number it would be about before China’s economy would double to $16 trillion. Theoretically possible, yes, in reality not a chance.

China has two huge problems. The first is the coming change in leadership at the CCP and bridging the gap of the lost generation of the “Great Leap Forward” and Mao’s “Cultural Revolution”. Chairman Hu has tapped the next leadership to be men (so far no women) in their 40’s as his successors. There are many unhappy Party members in their 60’s who feel slighted to say the least.

Second is that China has been taking the returns (profits) from their growth and investing them in foreign bonds in the United States and the EU and not reinvesting in the home front. The image of a peasant stooping in the fields an living on the edge of starvation looks up at the road in from of him/her and sees a “Nouveau Riche” country woman speeding past in a ned Mercedes Benz… Their are about a half trillion of these agrarian peasants, many who had family who served with Mao and are staunch loyalists to his cult, many still have the arms that Mao sent them home with to rise up against Counter Revolutionaries … I’ll let the reader fill in the rest of the story.

But this is about submarines so let get back to the story. As you suggest the SSN 21 are not evolutionary but a branch that goes to a dead end. The Chinese although they can make a nuclear boat are still in most western experts opinion in the pre-thresher stages of development. The Han Class, China’s most recent attack boat, there are two in the water but only one deploys, is several generations behind US Los Angeles Class. The rate of manufacture is about a three cycle and plans call for a max of eight boats more likely it will be six or less.

An upate on Wednesday the Russian had another test firing of the SS-NX-30 “Bulava” SLBM, from the White Sea from the Typhoon (test bed sub only) Class Dimitry Donskol, like 6 out of 11 times it failed which now has 7 out of 12 failures. As we sit right now the Chines has tow boomers one in a sea cave and on that last out to sea in 1988. The old evil empire has in the eight Delta IV’s, four in the North Sea Fleet and Four with the Pacific Fleet. These Delta’s last went to sea a decade or more ago.

Both countries are in developments of SLBM’s China the Jl-2, and Russia the SS-NX-30 “Bulava”. Neither country has either an operational ballistic missile submarine in the water or a SLBM to launch for a submarine. The odds that either Russia or China will have a deployable and armed boomer at sea in the next decade are not real high.

I would think that the mission of trailing either Russian or Chines boomers is rather low on the list of things for the Virginias to do.

The age of the US fleet is of concern but the Virginias as good as the are quickly becoming dated themselves. Fortunately the next generation of both SSN (that may change to SSGN’s) and SSBM’s is on the drawing boards. It is unlikely from what I can determine that the Virginias will ever get to 30 boats before being replaced. The leaps in technology are moving that fast.

An indicator of the Navy’s intent are forward rapid weapons replenishment facilities for submarines that are now out for construction bids for the submarine bases on Guam and at Diego Garcia.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner

Regarding the Seawolfs, the 21 and 22 (I’ve been aboard both) are, if you will, “super LA” boats that have 8 torpedo tubes, better sonar, a bigger reactor and integrated AFFF firefighting for Class-B fires. There’s nothing impressively-modern about them, in appearance or technology. They are the scratchpad of the designers of the Virginias; production was halted, appropriately. When you’re aboard one, it reminds you of an LA.

The Trident SSBNs are about as modern as a 688. I’m talking mechanical-relay-based-logic-computer-modern. Some systems have been updated, and these upgrades have extended their useful lives, given their mission.

Friends, the Virginia class is an absolute necessity if you care about the United States submarine force existing. I’m okay with it if you think we don’t need a big fleet. The fleet we have is older than you can even understand. It is older than anything that exists in your life, today.

It would also be nice if you kept your anti-conservative agenda a little more in check. In matters of security, their outlook has been more clear-sighted, through the Cold War years, and beyond.

Best,

Observer

The “neo-antebellum conservatives” are basically the prevailing winger who’s political conscious stopped with the election of 1860. They celebrate the lost cause and wear designer sheets, ie. they put up posts that are at best inaccurate and more often just lies, but won’t use their real names, quite cowardly actually, and quite often are paid by think thanks whos values they share.

Regarding the statement on the 774 boats, the Los Angeles Class I could not have said it better. They are worn out, have given their service and are due for retirement. I especially like you description of their interiors. The interiors are a 50’s cocktail lounge, worn red naugahyde booths, speckled or red and white checkered faux Italian Formica counter tops, but without the piano bar.

The U.S.S. Kitty Hawk inicident, we all remember that one, especially how the Admirals in charge were punished. Admiral Mullens was punished by becoming the CNO and the Intelligence Chief of the Pacific area, Admiral McConnell is now head of of the NRO. War is he** and punishment is swift for those who screw up.

In defense of the Navy though the Hawk was on a pre deployment training exercise in the Yellow Sea. There was no SSN with the group, there was an FFG that was patroling around the Hawk to keep fishing boats and what ever else away and out of sight was a DD51 with it Ages turned on doing ATC to keep civilian and other nations aircraft out of the air space the Hawk was using for it traps and recoveries. No one had their passive or active sonar in use looking for subs, after all this was a training exercise.

One note here on the Song boat that surfaced and took some pot card shots of the Hawk for the crew in Beijing, had been followed by the Japanese Self Defense Force for quite sometime, and reported to the USN. Since Chinese submarines have the rights of transit in the Yellow Sea the same as anybody else, this wasn’t considered any unusual activity.

Since it hasn’t happened again let hope that some folks in the USN wised up and are now turing on the ASW for the GW when it does it’s training exercised in the Yellow Sea.

The Seawolf boats, are as you indicated are a three boat class. I think one thing that most people don’t understand about U.S. naval vessels, seldom will you find two alike. As ships/submarines are build new technology is incorporated into the design and construction. The current Virginia boat that comes off the line will be a state of the art boat that supersedes the one before it as the best in the fleet technologically wise.

ALLONS,
Byron Skinner