Military.com has a story coming out this afternoon on the whole Trijicon bible verse controversy. Since I’m at SHOT, I figured I’d start the company’s day off right by popping by their booth first thing to ask why in God’s green earth they put bible verses on their ACOG weapons sites fielded to US military forces.
I tried to speak with Tom Munson, the director of sales and marketing for Trijicon, and he refused to comment, referring me instead to a statement they were going to forward me on the issue.
The statement reads in part:
Our effort is simple and straightforward: to help our servicemen and women win the war on terror and come home safe to their families. As part of our faith and our belief in service to our country, Trijicon has put scripture references on our products for more than two decades. As long as we have men and women in danger, we will continue to do everything we can to provide them with both state-of-the-art technology and the never-ending support and prayers of a grateful nation.
So, they’re taking an unapologetic stance and are not saying whether they’ll stop putting bible verses on weapon sights used to kill Muslims. Sweet.
I realize the above photo is a little hard to read, but after the product spec it reads “JN 8:13 12″ – “When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
Bang! Take that Jihadist!
– Christian
{ 178 comments… read them below or add one }
If they actually engraved that whole verse on that tiny space, now that would have been impressive.
Just stupid 'Political Correctness' bullshit as usual.
“If one person believes something which cannot be proved and seems unlikely, it’s called insanity. If a few people believe something which cannot be proved and seems unlikely, it is called superstition. If many people believe something which cannot be proved and seems unlikely, it is called religion.”
in this day and age, if many people believe something which cannot be proved and seems unlikely, it is called science!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah ok, go back to the dark ages. I'm sure you will find that you and the Taliban that you and the Taliban have much in common …. As for me I'll take science and facts that can be proven over blind faith.
Or it becomes a great recruiting tool for the terrorists to "prove" that America is waging a holy religious war against Islam and Muslims everywhere.
Ummm….how about "I don't believe in that nonsense and I don't want it on my damned sight"….
Just stupid religious wackos trying to press their beliefs on others as usual….I'll never buy a Trijocon sight again. I might even take a grinding wheel to my current one.
This nation was built on Christanity. So U may as well call our founding fathers wackos as well.
Josh you might want to study american history all little bit more.. The idea that our founding fathers where all Christians is story that's often repeated but not based in fact.
Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Thomas Paine, and countless other Founding Fathers were all deists. They did not believe in the divinity of Jesus. They were emphatically non-Christian. James Madison wrote a secular constitution that does not contain the word God once. Thomas Jefferson literally took a razor blade to the Bible and cut out all the miracles, several of the stories, and anything else he considered to be ridiculous.
So please stop repeating the fantasy version of history that you learned in Sunday School.
"the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion…" — George Washington
Josh. You wouldn't like the Founding Fathers. They were not your brand of Christian. They were Deists…
"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." "I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." – Thomas Jefferson
He who shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world. – Benjamin Franklin
"The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." – John Adams
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." – Patrick Henry
"The future and success of America is not in this Constitution but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded." – James Madison
"It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." – George Washington
"America was born a Christian nation. America was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness, which are derived from the revelations of Holy Scriptures. …Part of the destiny of Americans lies in their daily perusal of this great book of revelations. That if they would see America free and pure they will make their own spirits free and pure by this baptism of the Holy Spirit." – Woodrow Wilson
"The fundamental basis of this nation's law was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teaching we get from Exodus and St. Matthew, from Isaiah and St. Paul." – Harry Truman
how long have you owned the optics? does it burn you hand when you touch it? Are you blind in the eye you look thru it? No? Then stop being a pinhead. You'd keep using the thing if you didn't know about it…
hay man Just because we believe in something U don't dosn't make us wackos.
It's a numbering schema. Don't look at it.
Other than projecting your intolerance, xenophobia and hysteria – don't read It.. If it had pork spray dispenser for the bullets would that be ok? I do. It's called a number schema and if someone didn't tell you – would you have know? This reminds me of a previous neighbor who was going to tell the college girls who live across the street to close their blinds because he felt guilty. After rolling around on the ground I suggested he try not looking in their window. Never mind.
Chrisram, if it's nonsense then why bother about it at all. You bought the sight for its technology and performance. Don't mind if you take a grinding wheel to your very expensive and very accurate scope. It just gets me that you are offended by a bunch of letters and numbers on your scope. Do you look up references of serial numbers and what they mean? Probably not. Sounds like a tirade from a person that doesn't understand much in the world and the freedoms given by dedicated religious people. One minute you enjoy your Trijicon and the next you're taking a grinding wheel to it. Shame.
how bout you just not buy the sights and keep you mouth closed
I'll replace you as a trijicon customer
why do you really care??? they are not forcing their beliefs on you! they are putting there beliefs over an inch or 2. why do you really care!!!!! get over it. If religion bugs you enough to not by a certain scope you have some issues.
Wow, one company remembers what this nation was founded on, and has the guts to show it. Too cool!
The United States of American is a SECULAR Constitutional Republic. One of the important principles upon which it is founded is SEPARATION of church and state. What school did you go to and how can you NOT know that?
Please refer to the commment above:
"Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Adams, and Paine were all Deists, not Christians".
Revisionist views of history are not cool or helpful.
When bible verse citations show up on US government property, paid for by us – taxpayers – it is easy to suggest that the jihadists might be some latter day Christian crusaders that didn't get enough education with the 4th crusade.
The 4th crusade largely brought down the Holy Roman Empire and facilitated the influx of Muslims into whole regions previously held by the empire. One result was ruthlessly sought, the opposite was had.
Seeking to do godly works with a gun is an idea that deserves alot of deep introspection. Verses don't belong on govt. property, especially in a war largely seen along religious lines.
"the government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion…" — George Washington
Actually Ryan, that quote is from Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli and was approved by President John Adams, not George Washington. It is interesting to note that the US then was facing a Muslim nation and wanted it known that we did not want a religious war, thus the wording in the treaty. George Washington was a Christian himself and like Robert E. Lee, spent many hours in prayer for guidance.
GI Joe, the Seperation of church and state is one of the most misquoted amendments of the constitution. Coming from an oppresive government, the founding Fathers wanted to worship the way they wanted and did not want the government to have any say in this. It was meant to protect the Church from the Government, not the other way around.
Since then, liberal leaders have twisted this to mean the church can not be present in any government or public places. Prayer in school has been removed, public nativity scenes have been removed, the ten commandments have been removed from courtrooms, and even the "In God we Trust" has been threatened to be removed from our currency. The funny thing is that congress is still opened with prayer…
So let me get this straight:
1) Trijicon has been putting in this serial number for 20 years, incidentally BEFORE we began fighting a large scale war on radical Islam
2)During the initial stages either no one had noticed the pattern or no one had made the biblical connection.
3) Until recently no one had lodged a complaint about the serial numbers.
4) In the 8 years since we invaded, no insurgent or terrorist or allied muslim has, to the best of my knowledge tried to use this obscure reference as evidence that we are the Great Satan bent on religious genocide
5) after all this time this is just coming to attention because one soldier lodged a complaint
6) if said complaint had never been lodged no one would no any better except maybe Trijicon
7) and this is supposed to be endangering service members all over the world?
None of that excuses the behavior of fundamentalist whackos with the arrogance to believe:
a) They alone are anointed with The Truth and,
b) They have the right to cram it down everyone else's throat…
Hmm. Sounds like Islamofascists, yes?
you are very ignorant, apparently the makers are christian and therefore have the right to stamp whatever they like on their own product. it you hate it so much then don't buy the sight and get over it.
Yes, the makers have a right to make their products how they wish, but they need to be forthright about what they're selling. The government also needs to be careful about what they're buying. Both parties were irresponsible in letting this thing get fielded.
Maybe it's my christian background but the way i see it, this isn't that big of a deal. It's another case of wannabe muckrakers trying to stir up trouble by trying to create the next big scandal. Seriously, what are we supposed to do, recall the thousands of scopes already in the field for ones that are politically correct? And all so religous extremists who already hate us will hate us less somehow?
Maybe nobody cares to hear about your religious beliefs. I sure as hell don't want my GI son exposed to them. So until somebody asks, you and Triicon should keep your religious opinions TO YOURSELVES…
maybe you should just calm down and buy another sight. if you son is a GI then he's a big boy now and can make up his own mind
Like the other religious zealots here, you miss the point. It's not his decision. Not mine. Not yours. It's a Constitutional prerequisite. The Constitution and its parts are not subject to "popular vote." Get it? And I stand by my earlier statement. When it comes to expressing your religious views via government channels, it's AGAINST THE LAW. What part of that don't you understand? Did you ever take Civics? And on a personal level, what makes you think anybody wants to hear about your religious views?
Last I checked the constitution gaurantees the freedom of religion, not from religion, what civics class did you take??
And who wants to listen to your atheist views? How did that saying go… Oh right, "Their are no Atheists in fox holes." Most of that, "their is no god" crap goes out the window when your life is in peril…
GI joe, it seems to me, making sure your son isn't exposed to those wacko religious beliefs, is kinda pushing YOUR religion down his throat. Atheism. still a religion, the worship of yourself. you seem to be an atheist zealot. that's the best kind.
“When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” is John 8:12. 8:13 says "The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."
This is incredibly old news. Just from a 20 second cursory Google search, I see people noticing this in 2006. Whether or not it is appropriate is another matter, but it shouldn’t shock anyone–at least not in 2010.
Erich Simmers
OK.
Your choice.
Do it.
We don't need to know.
Did you also just have to 'preach' an anti-religious (i.e. religious = wacko) message along with announcing your future intentions?
BTW: Freedom of Religion does not equal Freedom From Religion. You having your particular 'faith' doesn't bother others. One is amused as to how the faith of others seems to bother you.
Yeah, Chris. The First Amendment clearly decrees that all citizens must be forced to pick a religion. If you can't find one you like, you will have to make one up. Otherwise, men from the government will come to your house and kill you. That is what the Founding Fathers intended.
Yes. It bothers the hell out of me when somebody claims their religion is a) better than everybody else's and b) something I need to follow. This whole problem would be solved if people kept their religious viees to themselves. And yes, the Constitution specifically provides BOTH: freedom to worship as you believe and freedom to keep it out of your life…
Any of them have the serial number MTHW 26:52?
It all started with the Holy Grenade of Antioch…
he got the verse right, but the number wrong, the number in the picture shows JN 8:12.
"So, they’re taking an unapologetic stance and are not saying whether they’ll stop putting bible verses on weapon sights used to kill Muslims. Sweet."
So, are these sights only being used by units deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan? I hope you are just trying to be funny, but comments like that just fan the flames of things like this, and do not help solving it.
In any case, they are a private company, are they not? They can include whatever marking on their products they want. This falls squarely under the 1st Amendment. Now, if the government were producing these scopes, then there would be a problem with separation of church and state.
They will not be free to do so once the contract says don't. They will then have the choice of sticking to their guns, or having the multi-million dollar contract. I would like to see if the responses would be the same if a manufacturer put the Darwin fish on the military contract items.
I appreciate their tenacity and closely-held values, but can't help but think that this isn't aiding appearances.
Which particular Founding Fathers were you thinking of? Jefferson, Franklin, Madison, Adams, and Paine were all Deists, not Christians.
Ok, if you're a believer, then this is fine. But if you're an atheist, why should you care what your damnable serial number says either way? The entire debate is silly. Although I'm always amused by the perversion of christianity that occurs when it becomes involved with guns. Someone above said it well – Matthew 26:52, but also Matthew 5:39.
Jesus was very clearly not militant and commanded his followers to be pacifists. Read the bible and see. Anyone who says otherwise is twisting the words of the bible to suit what they already believe, rather than letting their beliefs conform to the bible.
I am glad someone is as sure in his beliefs as I am in mine, but the part where you say anyone offering a different view than what your is is all wet.
>>>Jesus was very clearly not militant and commanded his followers to be pacifists. Read the bible and see. Anyone who says otherwise is twisting the words of the bible to suit what they already believe, rather than letting their beliefs conform to the bible.<<<
Jesus stated that he was not here in the name of peace during his presence, that he would divide father against son, mother against daughter, etc. He also stated upon his leaving that the day of his protection would soon be over… only by his protection were the disciples protected, thus he desired his followers NOT to take arms against those that meant him harm… HOWEVER.. He also stated that upon his absence the followers SHOULD take arms in protection against the oppressors, that they manufacture and secure those arms for personal protection because he would no longer be with them for personal protection. Perhaps you misinterpretted your reading of the New Testament. Or perhaps you read into it as you thought it should be.
Yeah, I'm with you on the first part Dave.
Your second part is kinda out of context though. Jesus's followers thought he was a physical king, not a spiritual one. They wanted someone to attack the Romans and drive them out. Jesus had bigger plans, anyways, remember he returns in Revelation on a white horse with a sword, leading the army of God.
Exodus 15:3 states that God is a warrior, and King David claimed that God trained his hands for war.
Many people have many different reasons for hating and denying their maker. and they call everyone but themselves stupid, but in my view, if you really want to be stupid, then hate your maker while looking down the barrol of a rifle.
Christians are called to peace. They fight because they love their country or because they have to. Any observance of Christianity that brings anything other than peace is not of God.
I had two tours in Viet Nam and have made a proclamation that I will never again lift my hand against another human being. In my first tour I gave 36 pints of blood. Because for me, to love God is to love my fellow man. These two are inseparable.
Those who love to kill, you are on your own. All others have my constant prayers for the completion of your duty and a safe trip home.
James
Hate your maker while looking down the barrel of a rifle? WTF does that even mean! Does your computer have a built-in macho bullshit generator?
What he means is, the quotes refer to the Bible, and if you're hating the verses on your scope, you're hating the Bible, which was given to us by God, as we Christians believe, but they're still using the scope at the same time.
I see. Thank you for the translation.
Ha ha, A true Christian, God gave you the Bilble, did he also issue you the bullets to "Thou shalt not kill", unless it is Muslims in thier own country who had nothing to do with 9/11?
Pete, I am so sick of people misquoting the bible to try to make their point. Wow, You do realize that the translation of that verse "thou shalt not kill" has nothing to do with war time?? It's direct translation from the Hebrew means, "Thou shalt not MURDER", which has a much different meaning. Killing in wartime was never considered murder in the bible. God commanded Israel go to war many times. This verse means do not Kill your neighbor in his sleep because you want his Ipod.
Anyways, with the amount of taliban and Al-Qaeda we are facing in Iraq and Afghanistan it is obvious that these countries were full of terrorists….
Gideon…you mean the bible?
dang put some old testament… psamls 23…. motivating.
How about adding "This bullet may contain pork by-products" ?
lol, We sent my brother a care package when he was in Afghanistan. Not knowing, we sent him Slim Jims. Then we heard about how strict they were over there and that they check the packages for "pork products". Fearing the start of a "Slim Jim" holy war, we checked and found out that their is no pork in Slim Jims…
You are so full of it. I've been deployed twice and I've never heard a peep about such a thing.
two words Indian Mutiny
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Mutiny
lol, that is great! Pork fat greased rifle cartridges!
Way to go Trijicon. Last time I looked, this is a free country, to include Freedom of Religion, and Speech. I served my country to defend this Freedom and I thank God that we are able to voice our opinion. May God continue to Bless America!
You served your country to defend the Constitution. ALL OF IT. Not just your favorite parts. The United States DOES NOT and NEVER WILL have an official religion. The people are free to practice any religion they see fit. But the government is Constitutionally prohibited from participating. Get it?
GI joe, you have to be the absolute most ignorant person i've ever heard of. There are fables telling of your great ignorance. I was in the Marine corps Infantry for four years, and looked through an ACOG optic for both of my deployments to Iraq. I never had any idea that the numbers on the side referenced the bible, and i don't think anyone of us had any idea. So… do you think Trijicon was making me practice religion? Cuz if so i missed it. I wish i had known it was a verse, i'd probably get it tattooed on my chest.
Wow, you win the head below the subject award.
Please learn to think before writing again.
Dwayne is incapable of typing more than four sentences without invoking the words "Freedom", "God Bless America",, and "served my country".
Ignore GI Jane and Ryan, they most likely are from Iran or France… Either way they are full of it.
Assuming that such biblical citations are not on government issue, I commend Trijicon. if people don't like it, then they can simply not buy it. It's really simple.
They ARE on government issue. That's what all the fuss is about. American soldiers fighting with magic Jesus-blessed weapons makes great PR for the Taliban.
oohh, I wonder if the Mormons in the Military have Military issue magic underwear?
This is not just a problem for the US military, apparently Trijcon are getting complaints from other Secular Democracies who are now REQUIRING that the optics have no religeous notations.
Ryan, you would prefer majical lifelike Jihad dolls that speak Koran verses while blowing up?
Trijicon has been doing this for 15-20 years, get over yourself…
Awesome, I like it. I think I'll by one.
Erich nailed it! I guess that in 2014 we can read about it again. As long as the receipt is from Trijocon and not Gideons that's all that matters to me.
Maybe Muslims can inscribe Quranic references on their weapons used to kill Christians in the fight against crusaders. Let's see how long it takes for those very same Christians to proclaim that "this is further proof that Islam is waging a war on Christianity and that Islam is violent…" and so forth. The Muslim company that produces that equipment can also be unapologetic and Christian can proclaim how "sweet" that is.
this. is. right. 100%.
You nailed it.
How about… who gives a shit what they put on their rifles. For those of you who have never set foot in a foreign country, or have given blood, or watched their friends shot and killed, you're welcome for your freedom of speech. Had I not fought long and hard to ensure those rights, i'd tell you all to shut the hell up. As an "COMBAT" infantryman, I really could care less if the person trying to KILL ME did it in the name of Allah, or in the name of Mickey Mouse. It changes nothing. This is not a holy war, even for 90% of the insurgents in the middle east. Even less so for suicide bombers. You ignorant people have no idea how many "suicide bombers" blew themselves up because Al Qaida paid their family $5,000 when they were starving. American troops aren't fighting for christianity, and most insurgents aren't fighting for islam. So i don't care if someone has a dalai lama signed bayonet, it doesn't make buddhism evil.
This is nothing! I heard all urban camouflage will henceforth be renamed "Urban II camouflage" just to complete the zealotry of our brave crusaders, erm, soldiers…
Cool, too bad so many probably missed your reference to the Pope who launched the first Crusade.
God bless you. The truth is we are hated by the Muslim world. It is not only political correctness, but also political madness to hear the words of hatred aimed at the West and not accept them as reality. Even the threats of Osama bin Laden were taken from the eighth and ninth chapters of the Koran.
"When you meet the unbelievers strike them in the neck…. If you do not go out and fight, God will punish you severely…Whenever you find the polytheists, kill them, seize them, besiege them, ambush them…You who believe do not take Jews and Christians as friends…The Hour of Judgement will not come until Muslims fight the Jews and kill them".
A good muslim is a jihadist. A bad muslim wants peace.
You use quotes, but don't bother to say what you're quoting. Please specify exactly where these words came from, and don't just say "The Quran" because that is not a good enough answer when you say something so inflammatory.
Which verses?
Put up or shut the f up.
The reason you are hated by the muslim world, is that you have a habit of invading muslim countries and killing Muslims there for un-christain reasons, like blaming them for things like 9/11 that had nothing to do with the Iraqi Muslims you killed.
Try this remembet this before you neaxt invade a Muslim country:
- Thou shalt not lie'
-Thou shalt not kill
Its in the bilble somewhere, just keep looking, its there.
Not that this even deserves a response, but I'll bite. It is the Muslim belief that they must convert the world by choice or force. They hate Jews and Christians, because they serve the Jewish God and for the Muslim faith to be correct, Christians and Jews must be removed from the Earth.
Muslim nations both support and deny terrorism. It is because of the teaching of the Koran. In one paragraph, it says that Jews and Christians will be saved, the next paragraph it says for Muslims to kill them. It is confusing scripture, that is why the nations that follow it don't really know where they stand.
Without the US in Iraq or Afghanistan and if Israel left the Middle East and moved to Hawaii, the Muslims would still want to destory them. It is part of their faith, they must destory Jews and Christians so the end of the world may come…
Sweet! keep doing it…
That's all well and good, but in fighting in the middle east we are left with three choices: genocide, pull out or try and insure that the 'bad Muslims' are the ones put in control. To options one and two, equating shooting people with spreading the word of JC does not matter, to option three, it matters a great deal.
vis a vie bad Muslims, I am a little bit suspicious of amateur commentary on sharia especially when there are Islamic authorities who claim it to be a misinterpretation but even if it were correct, if I were to be a good Jew, I am pretty sure that I would be obliged to stone to death anyone that attempts to proselytize me and I am pretty sure that my Christian friends would be obliged to pledge vows of poverty and, you know, not not use their ACOGs to kill people. But, all and all, there are many bad Jews and bad Christians out there and I am pretty happy with that.
In closing, WWJS. Thats what I really want on my ar-15.
Well, this practice provides a handy way of Jihadists to 'prove' that US forces are anti-Muslim, which should make it a useful recruiting tool for them.
It will also help convince the rest of the world that the US really is full of bible-spouting gun enthusiasts which will not mke recruiting allies any easier (especially among Islamic nations).
Hard to see what other effect it will have.
Wonder how US soldiers would respond to having Koranic verses on their hardware?
>>>Well, this practice provides a handy way of Jihadists to 'prove' that US forces are anti-Muslim, which should make it a useful recruiting tool for them. <<<
"Jihadists" need NO recruitment tool that has not been brainwashed into them since early childhood. The flooding of the brain with NO literature other than the kuran… the literal interpretations re-enforced by the brainwashed adults. The very lack of information other than the most base and offensive of the western world … Muslims have killed more Muslims than Westerners. The simplistic mentality of "our way or die". As far as the inscriptions on any product, the manufacturer of the product decides what is to be inscribed… and thusly it is for the satisfaction of the inscriber, only the acknowledged purchaser endorses the inscription.
So utterly wrong in every way…
>>>.Jihadists" need NO recruitment tool that has not been brainwashed into them since early childhood. The flooding of the brain with NO literature other than the kuran… the literal interpretations re-enforced by the brainwashed adults….<<
You un-educated, world ignorant prat. If you knew how many well spoken, well mannered mild Muslims converted into Jihadests through hatred of the western's world occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan you would soon shut up. It doesn't make it acceptable or better, but this blatantly ignorant stereotype does nothing to help the situation, look to the Terrorists in London and the recent Detroit would-be-bomber. These people are open to conversion through hatred for the west BECAUSE of the manipulation of facts and stupid things like BIBLE VERSES ON THE SIDE OF GUNS!
If you are going to make massive generalisations… Actually, just don't.
Apparently, these radical Christian sight-makers are not really different from the radical Muslims they hate.
If I was still in, I'd flat-out refuse to carry such a device. If given a direct order, I'd just say court-martial me and let it all get sorted out.
I put my ass on the line for a lot of things, but a Crusade was not one of them.
OK.
Your choice.
Do it.
We don't need to know.
Did you also just have to 'preach' an anti-religious (i.e. 'radical' Christian) message along with announcing your future intentions?
BTW: Freedom of Religion does not equal Freedom From Religion. You having your particular 'faith' doesn't bother others. One is amused as to how the faith of others seems to bother you.
Hey -responding to these Indignant Atheists and PW, PC Secularists is easy! I only had to change two words between now and the last one…
your full of it!!!! you probably never served a day on the line!!! If you had, you would know that GOD is on your side and every little bit helps!!!
Are all of our soldiers and sailors exactly like our zealot enemies, or just the ones who post on the Internet? Does the irony of claiming God's favor whilst fighting those who commit violence in God's name totally escape notice for each and every fighting man and woman? We need to teach logic along with fire and maneuver…
Perhaps, you would remember the oath you took to protect America and it's "interests" world wide. Perhaps you may even take the time to study the history of the enemy… the real and present enemy. Perhaps you might realize it's serious.
Any nation or group of individuals that thinks that the oppression and forceful take over of any free people(s) at any point of the world needs to be checked.
Any who have enlisted in the last decade NOT realizing that religious zealots are and have been oppressing people WORLDWIDE for generations in the name of ISLAM in my personal opinion is not intelligent enough to enlist.
Also from your statement you include as a Crusade, a crusade for freedom?…
basic rights?… basic equality?
A Crusade is NOT just a bunch of Bible thumping zealots… but MAY be ANY who believe that there is a limit to how much control one might have over another reinforced by weaponry and brutality.
When positioned with a weapon upon a target, I care little what is inscribed on the sight of the weapon but a great deal about what morality tells me I am about to do and the two be on target.
(G)od does not NEED me to enforce my interpretation of (H)is will.
So I have to buy into Radical Christian zealotry if I'm to oppose Radical Muslim zealotry?
That's just plain ignorant.
Anybody who doesn't see the problem with this has NO, repeat, NO understanding of the United States Constitution and what makes it unique in the history of civilization… Do you get it folks? Separation of Church and State is why we work as well as we do. That and The Rule of Law is what separates us from the Taliban and Bosnia. Get it?
Unless the government ordered that the verses be put on the sights, it in no way violates Church and State.
Separation of church and state means the state will adopt no particular religion and the state will make no moves on religion. In the days when adopted, it meant all Christian religions were looked on by the state as if they were the same. This is why so much in our capital and our oaths shows Judaic-Christian icons and influence. Why is this so confusing to alleged adults?
It means the State will adopt NO religion and religion will play NO part in government affairs. The Founders saw how religion had royally screwed up any hope of self governance in Europe and properly SEPARATED it from governance forever. The Founders were Deists, not fire-breathing, snake-kissing, devil-fearing, bible thumper, born-agains…
Sorry GI Jane, no one is buying your BS… It may be a secular nation now, but the US was founded as a Christian nation. Just ask any Jihadist, they will tell you.
If the US was founded as a Chrisitan nation, why is it that Christianity is not mentioned a single time in either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution?
I'll tell you why…it's because we weren't.. Arrogant, ignorant Christians just decided later on that they somehow own this country.
GI Joe….never for Full Retard.
CCC was not a boomer…
GI Joe, once again you amaze me. Separation of Church and State means the church does not rule. I'll dumb this down for you… you need it. In the dark ages (400AD-1400AD) the catholic church had nearly all of the political power, and they abused it. Our founding fathers wanted to make sure that there was a difference between the church, and the government. They had no intentions of removing religion from the government. That didn't happen until this crazy Bitch decided you couldn't pray or have a bible in school. And the 10 commandments can't be in a courthouse, which our laws are based off of. And since the total eradication of religion from all aspects of our life… how are things working out for us? Look around. economy's crashed, morals are at an all time low, people rob each other, and kill their children. Man things are running pretty well huh?
Uh, sure…the economic problems are here because we don't force people to pray in school or prop up the Christian religion with tax dollars.
Yes, you did dumb things down…to your own level. How about you try education and critical thinking instead?
Dont blame trijicon, blame the DOD for buying the damn things. If DOD dont like it they can buy another damn sight from another maker. Trijicon will probably cave and take it off the scope to keep the contract but I blame the DOD for procuring and issuing the sights to begin with.
They ones tried to call a boomer (or was it an attack sub) "corpus Christi". That was a lot funnier. Christian humor isn't wat it used to be.
Rickover's unfortunate policy of naming subs after things other than fish, e.g., cities and states ran into the issue that many prominent cities in the Southwest were old mission names. The city named Corpus Christi rated a submarine named after it no less than cities named Houston or for that matter, Los Angeles and San Francisco. The last 2 cities mentioned are named after old missions, and the missions are named after religious icons. It's one of the pluses/minuses of a Christian country….
I’m waiting for them to issue one marked Ezekiel 25:17…
As noted above, this is a historical thing that predates the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.
Have they been formally told no to? If not, then, as a private company they can put what they damn well like on their own products. If they are, then they can either stop or lose the contract.
Private owners are free not to buy them. The big question is what US DOD and UK MOD intend to do – especially about the ones already in service….
Oh – other thought (possibly not a happy one): Are these sights being issued/leased/sold/gifted (whatever terminology the US Govt. wants to use) to ANA units?
How petty that the military has loads of time to investigate such a matter. I guess this is tax payers money at work.
As always, lets take something that has absolutely no affect on the performance of the tool and make it the primary item of concern. I do not know about anyone else out there, but if you want to offer a prayer for me when I'm in the line of fire, I will not turn it down, no matter what religion. It is simply your way of offering me your good wishes and hope for a safe return. Anyone who would focus on this and complain until it causes a change needs to get a life and move on…
You're so right. I think that we should buy sights with pentagrams and upside-down crosses too. Maybe a little flaming sword with "jihad" in Arabic?
Haaretz reports that the IDF also has messages on their scopes, but their messages say things like "be sure to wear a jacket if you go outside" and "would it kill you to call your mother once in a while?"
Best post so far…
Agreed.
Agree with your agreement.
"ABC Raids Message Boards to ‘Break’ a Decades-Old Story" (Pajamas Media) – Yawn.
Indignant Atheists and PC Secularists moved to express horror – Yawn again
Indignant Patriots and Constitutionalists. Get your religion out of our government, PERIOD.
I highly doubt you have ever been down range, or you have any use for Trijicon products, so quit your bitching and go back to watching CNN
You stay a soldier for Christ. I was a soldier for MY COUNTRY… Dilwack at Ft Hood was a soldier for his religion. He didn't give a rat's rear end about his country or the Constitution.
Either let them keep the freedom or take it away.
If they really wanted to cause a ruckus, they would add PSLM 137:8-9 to their products.
We are in a PR war because we have to convince a large number of people not to become terrorists. Part of that PR war is convincing the Muslim world that this is not a Crusade–please explain to me how this does not hurt the PR war?
Number 1: the Crusades were in response to Muslim aggression and the Crusader kingdoms were miniscule in comparison to the three Muslim Empires and were solely for protecting Christian pilgrims. Number 2: The Constitution provides freedom "of" religion not "from" religion and thats a fact, look it up. Number 3: Who gives a flying crap!? It's probably more tactful than what a soldier might put on his own rifle. Beside all the references are to light and since the sights and scopes are tritium filled it's completely appropriate. Now piss off!
the crusades were also called because the pope got tired of christians killing each other and found a common enemy in the heathens who controlled the holy city….both sides were screwed up in those wars and both sides did noble things
WJS,
Here's why you should give a crap–winning the PR war and convincing more people not to become terrorists is a major part of winning the actual war. Is winning the actual war a good enough reason? It's not about the freedom of religion–it's about victory.
I give props to the asshole, who really took the time to be offended by an almost IMPOSSIBLE to find reference on a serial number that I overlooked for 4 years. Amazing, that someone put 2 and 2,309,483,023,203 together, and then was offended by it. Until this made the news… do you really think it would've EVER caused a problem in the Muslim World? I have an idea, if the people who brought this out REALLY cared about winning the war, or not putting our troops in danger, than the LAST thing they would've done was release it to the media. The Media has been the number one killer of american troops since viet nam.
mapsofwar.com
There were already incursions into Europe by Muslims aggressors before the Crusades ever happened. The US media will never, ever shine a positive light on anything the US military does. Doomsday was about to happen in Iraq until suddenly the insurgency was, for the most part, crushed.
The PR war isn't going to be won by our side as long as the current media elite does what it does. We just have to have leaders that don't bow to misinformed media pressure and continue to do the right thing. Alas, that is not the type of person in charge, note I didn't say leader, that we have in the White House. There will always be terrorists. There is always an illiterate, brain-washed savage willing to kill innocents somewhere. The trick is to get them to Allah as quickly as possible before they can do any damage. Now I'm off to buy an ACOG.
These scopes never hurt anyone but the suckers they're pointed at; I don't have a problem with the scriptures reference being inscribed on it.
Good Job AGOG!
OUr New Zealand goverment has ordered the removing of all the references of the sites so as not to upset the Taliban when fighting them:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3248161/Undesirab…
CAn you believe that!
The folks making a big deal of this have only fed the Muslim proproganda machine. Guarantee they will use this. Way to go folks.
Maybe it isn't the folks making a big deal of this that should be blamed. Maybe the people who thought it was a good idea to use biblical references are the problem. Just like in a political campaign, bad message discipline hurts us. Our message is: "this is about terrorism and is not a religious war." Anything that detracts from that message hurts the PR side of the war, and PR is part of winning hearts and minds.
As Jesus once said, he who lives by the sword shall die by it.
They should put Matt 10:34, romans 6:23, rev 6:8, job 38:11 to name a few ;-).
Seriously, who cares about the taliban or aq, they want to kill us anyway, who cares if they want to kill us more? We need to stop apologizing for who we are and start to put the fear of God into our enemies. Seemed to work in biblical times anyway.
I hate it when they pull a no comment … especially when you're standing right there! So lame!
WHO CARES, just something else to whine about….How about spending the time to help create jobs and lower the cost of living, eleminating hunger in the GOOD OL' U.S. and not third world countries………
What I don't wuite get why people think that words of their Prophet which Christ is, would be found somehow offensive to the followers of Islam. Or moreover how getting shot dead is any more offensive due to the sight being used.
This is all quite idiotic.
Amen. I say “great job” to this company for standing up for their religion and for caring about our soldiers enough to involve Christ in their defense. In my opinion, we need more companies like this in our ‘christian founded’ country.
what about EX20:13?
Before you start quoting scripture you need to know the meaning. I will help you,
Murder:the crime of UNLAWFULLY KILLING a person especially with malice aforethought or the intentional and unlawful taking of another personʼs life. And that bis not what we are doing over there. I hope you are not in the military.
In the good ole' days, we sent our troops off to fight for God and country. If any of that has changed, then what are we fighting for? Our troops are fighting for America, while so many in our nations capitol are fighting against it. Our enemy is fighting a jihad, so let's bring it to them with the finest optics we have, and with God on our side. God likes winners.
I assume God loved the other side on 9/11, then? Is critical thought an alien concept to you, or do you just have an apple pie and a flag stuffed inside your skull?
God loves all. Some just choose not to accept it. Just because He loves the other side of 9/11 doesn’t mean they won’t see His wrath. His wrath will be much more devastating to them than any war with us.
Thanks, yet another person telling me what God wants. When the Muslims speak about what the very same God wants, you seem to devalue their opinion out of hand. Can you sense now why some people don't really trust the hand of the religiously guided folks any where near our rule of law? It can't possibly be clearer.
Our troops are fighting for their country. Not for ANYONE'S god. Not yours, mine or the enemy's…
I will assume all the complainers:
1. Do not Buy or receive gifts at Christmas
2. Boycott all stores and establishments with Christmas decorations
3. Work on religiuous holidays in protest
4. NEVER use phrases such as "Thank God" or "Go to hell" (implies acceptance af a supreme being and his demon enemy)
5. By the way, Jesus is a HISTORICALLY documented person that had an immense ionfluence on humanity.
6. I could go on and on but I will not.
Keep trying to crush Christianity…you WILL be adequately rewarded on judgment day. Think about it…if WE (Christians) are wrong what has being a christian REALLY cost us….but if YOU are wrong…ouch!
I'm all worried about your "judgement day!!!" In the US Christmas is largely a secular holiday based on pagan traditions (christmas tree, holly, etc). Jesus' birthday is not even on Christmas. I have no desire to crush Christianity or any other religion. Try to get this through your fundamentalist noggin: Practice your religion all you want. Just keep it OUT OF MY GOVERNMENT as required by LAW. Simple, yes?
What a ****storm over something as insignificant as a serial number. I don't necessarily like it, but it's not as if actual verses or religious symbols are inscribed… just a reference to a passage.
Wow yall are going way over board. They didnt mean anything by it than a litte luck charm or some encuragment.
All it says is that god is always with you no matter how hard life gets…….
OMFG!!!!!!! AHHHHHH!!!!!!! Obviously they are advocating genecide.
Seriously i want one person here to tell me how that verse can be considered evil?
God find something better to do with your life than wine and complain about what others believe when it has no bearing on your life.
Get a life.
Who says it's evil? If you can read, most are saying it's not consonant with our Constitutional values (they're bought with govt money, yet proselytize for one particular religion) and second, it damages our ability to win the moral war (these conflicts are fought in the media and in the hearts and minds of moderate Moslems–whose support is crucial to victory). Have you ever even heard of a fourth generation conflict?
Ok, so can you relate more on the ‘moral war.’ The reason terrorists are doing what they are doing is because of their religion. When a terrorist blows themself up they are supposedly going to see their ‘god and many virgins.’ How can you say this is not a war of religion?! They hate us because we are a christian country and we do not believe in their god. Wake up people! God, through his son Jesus Christ, is our main source of defense in this war!
Really? I heard Osama bin Laden himself say he was prosecuting the war as a way to play David to the geopolitical Goliath who was propping up dictators, backing coups, and generally dicking around with the fates of several middle eastern nations. As for explaining the moral dimension of war: Are you serious? Tell me, do you identify more with David, or Goliath? Does killing 700 civilians to kill 50 terrorists sound like a moral victory to you, or a clusterf*** of epic proportions with no long tern chance of changing hearts and minds?
I guess you really don't know that Muslims, Jews, and Christians all worship the same God? They are called Abrahamic faiths…this is something you possibly could have learned in the 8th grade, had you listened.
This what you folks don't get. It's not "evil." It's UNCONSTITUTIONAL. i.e. against the law. And it's a very important one not to be trifled with. More than anything else, two things separate us from the Islamofascists: 1) Strict separation of church and government and 2) The Rule of Law…
Yes there are far more things than that starting with culture. You can have laws out your a$$ but if your culture sucks your country will rot.
Yes i understand its against the law and i believe they shouldnt have done it. What i hate are these tards who use this and anywhere else they can wiggle there didgits to preach to me about how there smarter than me and anyone who doesnt agree with them because they dont believe in god.
I dont even go to church im just tired of being insulted by people who verbaly spew fecies out there mouths to prove how arrogant they are.
Was it wrong yes, do people need to stop freaking out yes.
I have a comment on the so-called ‘seperation of church and government.’ Do people not realize that was just something written in a letter by one of our past presidents? The whole ‘strict seperation of church and state’ thing has been taken way out of context. The ‘freedom of religion’ part of our contitution was put in because of Christianity. Colonists left England to FREELY practice Christianity. This is what our country was founded on! The problem is christians are not standing up for their religion as much as other religions. If more christians would have stood up in the past we wouldn’t be in the mess we are in now.
That and the value of human life, the empowerment of women, the ridiculous lengths we go to not hurt civilians and the use of our left hands for something other than wiping our ass
who gives a damn? im sick of people whining about religion and law and blah blah blah!!!!!! WE HAVE PEOPLE FIGHTING AND DIEING FOR US AT LEAST YOU SHOULD GIVE THEM YOUR UNDYING SUPPORT INSTEAD OF MINDLESS BICKERING OVER TECHNICALITIES!!!!!!! WE HONESTLY HAVE BIGGER ISSUES TO DEAL WITH THAN A COUPLE VERSE REFERENCES!!!!!!!!!! GROW UP AND ACT LIKE ADULTS!!! AND IF THIS OFFENDS ANYONE I HOPE SOMEONE FINDS YOU HANGIN IN A CLOSET SOMEWHERE BECAUSE OF THE GUILT YOU SHOULD FEEL FOR CARING MORE ABOUT THIS BULLSHIT THAN YOUR OWN PEOPLE FIGHTING AND DIEING WILLINGLY JUST TO GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO COMPLAIN LIKE A BUNCH OF IGNORANT CHILDREN!!!! HAVE FUN TRYING TO SLEEP AT NIGHT YOU IGNORANT FOOLS!!!!
You need to reread the Constitution. This has nothing to do with it.
It is a good thing to put scriptures on the scopes for the American Soldiers to see if the complainers want to complain then let them go to a country wher they can live with the Devil in this country we want the help of the winning soldiers, the ones that has God and Jesus on their side. and if Atheists and Agnostics, and Muslims don’t like it let them go and live with the Muslims and the Devil. “Winston Gregg”
Thank you for propping up the stupid arguments by the people you just insulted.
Your a christain? Well as a man who having been raised church of christ let me tell you something.
Those people you hate? God wants you to save them instead you push them away and show your greatness, piety and ignorance.
We should be fishermen of men i remember that. YOU are just as bad as they. We are all the children of god no matter where we were raised or how horrible our sins.
Remember that.
How about you leave instead? Go set up your "Christian Nation" and get the hell out of America. You don't have a claim to this country any more than I do.
The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." "I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." – Thomas Jefferson
He who shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world. – Benjamin Franklin
"The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." – John Adams
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." – Patrick Henry
Sorry Rob, but your liberal washed ideals don't match up with the truth…
Did you know that many of the SS who fed the gas chambers at Aushwitz also claimed that "they had God and Jesus on their side". If justifying killing muslims because you have "GOD" on YOUR side means you can do that with a clear concience, then you and your god can FUK off.
Wow, liberals keep getting dumber… The Nazis were Pagan and Occultic. Umm, also check your understanding of Christianity, Jesus was a Jew, and Jehovah is a Jewish God, any belief that killing jews is a good thing is definately not Christianity.
Anyways, Liberals support abortion which kills 2000 babies a day and has killed 10 time more US babies than jews that died in the Holocaust.
God bless Trijicon – Having our own hardware turned against us when captured by an enemy has always been a problem. Trijicon has found a way to prevent this now that it is widely known and most of the uneducated terrorists won't even be able to read the printing since it's not in Arabic script and therefore won't trust any of the optical sighting accessories that we use.
I like what a spokesman from CENTCOM had to say, "This situation is not unlike the situation with U.S. currency. Are we going to stop using money because the bills have 'In God We Trust' on them?"
Yeah, take your US currency out of the Muslim coountries you illegally invaded, like Iraq and Afghanistan. I am sure they had their own currency before you gate crashed their soverign nations, or was that not obvious to you and your mates at CENTCOM who profit from making weapons to kill Muslims.
I'm an atheist, but the verse doesn't bother me. Trijicon has been engraving Biblical verses on their sights prior to the initial procurement by the US government. It would seem to me that if we're going to use off the shelf technology then we shouldn't gripe about what's on it years later.
You Know So What If That Scope Has Bible Verses On It!!!! What Is Next Take All The Military Chaplens Out Of The Military, When They Pray For Our Men And Women To Come Back Safey From Battle OR Cant SAY FOR GOD AND COUNTRY No Offence And I Read My Bible Every Night But You Holy Rollers Must And Should Get A LIFE!!! Oh By The Way If You Would Of Read This Story Right Trijicon Was Going To Take The Verses Off Make There Scopes For Free For The Military NO QUESTIONS ASKED But Because Of 1 Person They Said NOOOO
The reason that Christianity is the best friend of government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." "I am a Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." – Thomas Jefferson
He who shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world. – Benjamin Franklin
"The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." – John Adams
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ! For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." – Patrick Henry
It's sad that liberals are trying to erase Christianity from our nation. Thankfully, the founding fathers ideals are very documented…
Nice job using misquotes, falsely attributed quotes, pieces taken out of context to mean something totally different from the original meaning, and good-old fabricated BS to make your point. Typical.
Nice Job trying to rewrite American history as a pagan nation, but people aren't buying it…
You said pagan, not I. I said that we weren't founded as a Christian nation.
And it's just ignorant people who don't know how to or don't care to use a library or a search engine aren't buying it.
People who bother to look into the subject and have brains in their heads discover that what I've said is correct. I challenge you to actually look into the subject instead of MSU.