The Army is fast tracking a GPS guided 120mm mortar round to Afghanistan in response to an urgent request for precision mortar fire from commanders on the ground there, and should be fielded by the end of the year. Called the Accelerated Precision Mortar Initiative (APMI), it improves upon the current round’s 136-meter Circular Error Probable (CEP) reducing it to about 10-meters.
“This is designed for a precision capability such as against a sniper in a building, or enemies in a bunker or trench. If you were to engage with a conventional mortar round, you would have to fire 8-to-10 rounds to kill or suppress the target. With APMI, you will probably be able to do the same thing with one or two rounds,” said Bruce Kay, systems coordinator for the Army’s mortar programs in a press release.
The Army will soon down-select from one of three competing industry teams: Raytheon-Israeli Military Industries, General Dynamics and ATK.
This is another example of the Army redressing a long neglected weapon that will be hugely important in the small unit, infantry battles that will dominate current and future wars.
– Greg
{ 56 comments… read them below or add one }
Any word on what they cost per round?
If you can use 2 instead of 8 it's probably cheaper. If you don't do collateral damage it's probably way cheaper.
This has been a long time coming. Personally, I'd like to see a more portable precision 81mm or 60mm, but that might not be feasible at the moment.
typical gov bs waste billions on over priced weapons for future wars but barely spend anything on the fight we are in now.
Ok, quick google search and I found some reports on FCMortar — a dual-seeker (GPS/Laser) 81 mm mortar add-on kit for existing 81 mm shells. Any word on how that is progressing? APMI 120 mm sounds great, but the 81mm FCMortar is what I really want.
Why are we importing our weaponry? This should not be going on! Bring back our precious indistry and penalize those who purchase it!!! Yes that means our government! There is no reason in the world we should depend on foreign countries to produce OUR military defence!!! Enough!
Wait, what? General Dynamics is based in Virginia. ATK is based in Minnesota. And Raytheon is about as American as a defense company as there is. Freaking out about Raytheon working with the Israeli military to design the weapon? Israel has a long history of coordinating with American defense companies to design superior products.
The US military traditionally shuns foreign defense contractors.
Sounds like your over using the Dual Overhead Reconnaissance Kone (DORK). Slow down Julie, Julie, Julie. It is a weapon that will stop the TERRORISTS in their tracks.
GO MARINES!
You might benefit from doing a little research before you comment on topics you are uninformed about.
If we need a weapon that our allies or enemies already use, why waste taxpayer dollars to develop a similar weapon? We should have copied the B40(AT/P shoulder fired, recoiless rocket) back in the sixties. But, like the short sighted ole boy said, " We ain't coping no commie weapon!".
Julie as a long time user of the M121 120mm Mortar system, and having fielded this gun system in 2 separate units, I will tell you I like it. It is fast, reliable, and effective. As far as puchasing it from foreign countries, you misunderstand. This gun is based on the Israeli 120mm Mortar, but is manufactured in New York at Wtervliet Arsenal. As far as the new round goes, we may purchase the technology from Israel or elswhere, but the munitions will be built here in the US.
As long as China and other countries agree to keep sending us the ammo even if our dispute is with them then it should be ok to import our defense systems… This is in keeping with our "box of rocks" policy decisions.
How about giving some to the Marines & Navy for shore bombing role IE GPS guided mortars would be useful for combat worldwide.
Give some to the Marines.
Why would you give them to the Marines? 120 MM is not in their inventory. It hasnt been for years. Retired USMC
They started fielding the Army's 120mm to the Marines for use in Afghanistan a couple years ago. I was at Quantico last year and it generated some discussion in class because the Army considers the 120mm an infantry weapon while the Marines consider it a field artillery weapon. That new "jeep" that's supposed to fit into the Osprey tows a Marine-specific 120mm mortar called the Expeditionary Fire Support System.
beside yall dont need that high teck stuff. leave the reading to the ARMY and the ARMY AIR CORPS, oh I AM SORRY I MEANT AIR FORCE. LOLOLOLOL. JUST PLAYING OF COURSE
Good Evening Folks,
This would seem to be a reasonable replacement for the NLOS-LC, which at $466,000.00 per round, even if it could hit the target makes the NLOS-LC economically unfeasible as a fire support weapon for the Infantry Company.
Another piece of the FCS bites the dust.
Earth to Defense Contractors, we have a problem. The money has ran out.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Earth to Byron –
Currently, the max SGLI is $400K. Saving just one life makes the NLOS-LC, APMI, PGMM or any derivative thereof cost effective.
On a side note, speaking from a combat engineer/EOD perspective, it would be interesting to know if they could use this technology to track UXO.
minor info detail: Per an Oct09 brief, the Threshold CEP is 10m, the Objcctive CEP is 5m.
Nice to see my old trade is being brought into the 21st century. High angle hell.
jkt,
When I spoke to PM Mortars at AUSA last year he told me the urgent request was for a 120mm round, but they were working on GPS for 81mm and 60mm. But he didn't give me any timetable on those.
Greg
It's about time that infantry get the support weapons they need. Weapons like the XM25, and this initiative to accelerate the PGMM are what's needed. I would also think in the near future, they could add a datalink to a mortar round and have that get on the network. If a sensor operator of a UAV detects something, he could then pass this info to a mortar battery and the mortar could even get updates to alter its trajectory so that it can hit or refine its designated aimpoint.
Why would this be useful? Think of reducing the CEP and collateral damage, especially if the target is on the move and it turns out that they hide out of the sight of the unit calling for fire. The UAV would ensure that its altitude advantage would prevent the enemy from using complex terrain as cover and concealment.
Byron,
NLOS-LS has a range of 40 kms while an M120 mortar's range is about 7240 m, while the Marines Drangonfire mortar may hit 8200m or 13kms with rocket assist. NLOS-LS is also a key weapon of the littoral combat ship and early deploying forces. You can place it in a well-protected FOB in Afghanistan and cover all your combat outposts and patrols. In contrast, at both COP Wanat and COP Keating, mortars were taken out early by the enemy.
For additional information, suggest using google news for "NLOS-LS Missile" and see recent articles "New NLOS-LS Plan Add Testing to Schedule" and "NLOS-LS Team Plots New Path Forward." You wil note claims that production cost in full rate production "may" drop to $198,000 for 9,942 rounds for a cost of around $2 billion…the price of one B-2 bomber. Modern missiles like Dragon and Hellfire with much less range than NLOS-LS still cost around $100,000 in today's dollars. Plus that $2 billion will be spread out over 12 years.
These are solely my personal views and I am not associated with BCT Modernization in any capacity. GPS Mortars are great, but no replacement for NLOS-LS.
I almost feel bad for the bad guys now,…almost! Shot over!!
Shot out.
Good Morning Folks,
Don’t get me wrong, I love the concept of the NLOS-LS and have been following its development since the 1970′s when it used the TOW missile and a lot of wires. The original intent of this system was to provided for the Infantry Company a quick indirect fire support that it could control. That need is still their, like for a direct fire weapon, air droppable platform with a 50-76mm gun that could go with an Infantry Company, the NLOS-LC has move up the food chain.
It is now in competition of the MLRS and the M-30 and M-31 missiles and the 155mm How. (M-109A6-7-8?) both of these are proven systems in combat and although I’m not sure of the end cost of the M-31 that is being a replacement for the M-30 I would think that the it would be cheaper then the NLOS-LS missile even at $198,000.00 per missile.
The Infantry Company seldom engages target that have a value that would justify the cost even at the reduced amount of the NLOS-LS. Perhaps they system can be saved by the Navy who are looking for a vertical launch system for the LCS, but its range of 40km (24nm?) is rather limited.
It appears that the NLOS-LS seemed like a great idea 40 years ago when first conceived is no longer a even a viable choice for it original mission and has no new mission on the current land battle field.
There is no comparison of missions with the B-2 any comparison is simply not a valid one, but not unlike the NLOS-LC the B-2 has also so shown itself to costly of a platform to use for a conventional combat mission. Bomb trucks like the B-1 and the old flying antique B-52 do the same job(s) much more economically.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
"The Infantry Company seldom engages target that have a value that would justify the cost even at the reduced amount of the NLOS-LS."
I beg to differ. We are restricted under current ROE from using weapons that could eliminate the threat faced by the rifle companies (snipers, mortars, etch) because of the high CEP and collateral damage caused by said weapons. A precision guided mortar round in the inventory at the platoon or company level would be a Godsend to those facing the high value targets that the infantry companies "seldom engage".
The biggest issue was not addressed. Cost is big, but also is all the electronic guidance, which displaces explosive power. I suspect more than half the boom will be gone.
Lets face it guys – they need this because they are being denied Air Support.
Don't try and cost justify it versus an ordinary mortar round. Compare it to the bombing run – that you did not get!
good answer Musson
I agree about reducing boom. 81's don't have much penetration either. I was an 81 maggot for 4 yrs with the 509th ABN in the late 70's. Precision is a great idea but any man-packed weapon has to be pretty durable. Too much banging around could render it useless. A steerable round that won't steer would be worse than one that never had the ability. It sounds like a great idea as long as we don't forget how to gun & direct fire the old fashioned way.
I know collateral damage is a big issue but some is inevitable. We used to be able to consistantly shoot 2-3 rnd direct hits at 3 km with direct lay & our f.o.'s & f.d.c. were just as accurate. There's no escaping the wind. As high as those rounds fly, changes in wind speed & direction, there's only so much you can compensate for.
Did they ever figure out how make those bipods any lighter? And what's up with the flair at the end of tube?
The flare at the end of the cannon is to reduce blast overpressure, and yes, the bipods have been lightened. Range has also been extended from your day in 81s (I was an 0341 in the Marine Corps at about the time you were in (81s), and since have been involved with testing and development for weapons and subsystems along those lines).
The compensation is in the in-flight steering, not simply in adjusting the firing solution on the FDC end.
So far we have reports on stationary targets but we are also talking about "enemies" who keep changing positions just after a couple of shots. The rest would be on the guys manning those mortars.
Hmm, the link doesn't seem to work. Also, would be good if the picture is linked to a high-res version (if possible).
what is needed is a system that mounts to rifles uses gps and optically triangulates to targets position, enabling rapid and accurate target acquisition via optical scope. similar to painting a target with a laser for laser guided gravity bombs. But instead incorporating an optical scope and gps to allow infantry to paint and remotely initiate mortar and artillery fire against selected targets in real time. Turning the infantry into more than artillery spotters; evolving them into a integrated target acquisition an fire control system directing more accurate fire support against the enemy in a much more timely manner than has traditionally been possible.
People are always worried about how much it will cost! Our mens lives are worth more that any cost…I wished we had somsthing like this in South Vietnam…I was Grunt…..Give the Men the Best to finish the job!
A Vietnam veteran!
"Any word on what they cost per round? "
Bingo. One would hope something similar to or less than the Excaliber artillery round ($85,000 each), but that would be just hope. All of the costs are in the guidance system, however, which would be similar for the round itself to the excaliber, so maybe it isn't a vain hope.
The cost would likely (eventually) be much less than the Excalibur round. Excalibur has quite a bit more capabilities than this would need. This is more like a PGK fuze technology used in a mortar body. PGK is just a fuze that can turn a regular artillery round into a gps guided munition. It has a much better CEP than conventional rounds but not quite as much as Excalibur, and is not nearly as expensive.
Logistics: If you only have to hump 1/10 the number of rounds from the US to Afghanistan the savings add up. Second it buys time. The enemy get's hammered quicker. If you have the small UAV's up and out you can land a pre-emptive on a reverse slope much quicker. Can you imagine the effect of a TOT with these things.
Toad –
Precision rounds are not meant to and never will be a replacement for conventional projectiles. They are intended for use against targets in areas where the bad guy must be killed with the first round without inflicting casualties on the school or nursery next door.
Well fortunately, we don't hump 120s. They are HMMWV portable or tracked vehicle mounted. 120s are a BN asset unless doctrine has changed since I played infantry. Therefore they are not generally located at company level.
Er, what about the day, maybe ten years from now, when the bad guys, including terrorists, can get these or Chinese copies on the black market?
Stateside testing is NO match for In Country "rounds downrange" in that high altitude environment of AFGN. Cross winds from nearby mountains or ridgelines
and the trigonometry of firing over one slope to hit an adjacent bad guy position
will take some trial and error to perfect. With that being said, the smaller ratio of collateral damage and fear factor of nailing a sniper or ambush site that was formerly near impossible to nail will be a force multiplier.
I'm still waiting for an air burst round with buckshot in a nice wide dispersal pattern about four feet off the ground mixed with some white phosphorus.
Actually, Obama has cut back all the new weapons development, space program, rifle contracts (which is why people are buying their own M1As) Ammo contracts. Soon it will be knives , rocks and sticks. All that money has to go to paying for social welfare programs. Kill of enough of the US troops and there is no worry of everybody coming home and kicking a little domestic enemies butt.
hmmm, i remember FCS Manned ground vehicles being canceled by Robert Gates.
Back to the subject; follow this link http://www.atk.com/Customer_Solutions_MissionSyst…
its built into the fuse so they can retrofit and replace easy if it is damaged. Unfortunately its battery life does not extend a long time after arming so no UXO advantage
Chicom copies in ten years? Try less than five, Hell at the rate they are improving their manufacturing and electronics capability, they may have it before we do and turn around and sell it to us! Remember, we have been shipping our jobs overseas for far too long now.
But I agree with those who want an 81mm version, the weight and speed would make this more useful for the Grunt in the field. I should know, I used to hump the 81mm and the old M2 4.2" and weight makes all the difference when in rough terrain.
It;s about time. The technology has been available fro years.
HEY! thats my old unit! 1-32 INF Alpha Company… that was in Barge Matal, Nuristan Province, Afghanistan. Because of the battles at barge matal and how many mortars were shot, we were black on 120mm mortars through out all of Afghanistan.
oops my mistake.. we only had 81mm and 60mm there.. not 120mm
bduff509, I believe that's a BAD. Blast Attenuation Device.
Would I be correct in assuming that means a noise or flash suppressor?
SHOT OVER,,,,Wow you now have a 120mm mortar that can be “guided” by satelite?? In my day, we had old 4.2in.&
81mm dumb rounds in our AO. The Grunts called for Echo
of the 1/6th,198th Bde.,,’cause we were faster than Arty.,,usually more accurate & would keep firing ’til the tube darn near melted (wrapped with towels &poured water over them),,Why?? ’cause the grunts lives depended on us. My gunner, Lonnie, would carry 10 old style 81mm rds. 2 in ea.leg pocket,1 in ea.pants pocket
& 1 in ea.hand,pins pulled. he would fire so fast,that he had them all gone ‘fore the first hit,even at close range. The Grunts on the radio were cheering for us to keep it coming & we did ’til we almost ran out of ammo late that night & any night they called. I know ’cause I was the Fire Mission “Computer” all done with maps,rulers, scales, A book & Manual Sights &Lights,,now you have Guided 5″ mortars???Wow,Shot Out
I beg to differ about mortar being more accurate that ARTY. It's a crap shoot right now. Mortarmen chunk the rounds down range and have no idea where they will impact. It's great that the rate of fire is high, but ONE SHOT -ONE KILL is the way to go. A GPS guided mortar round will help mortarmen achieve accurate first round fire for effect.
That is not a 120mm mortar please check it out. My was 11C for 20 years and that a 81mm Mortar M252.
Jim you're right. I was there too with C co 1-32 and at the mortar pits hieght of power there was two 81mm there. The was never a 120mm.