Back in the 1990s, China bought a prototype of the Russian built Su-33 Falcon (a navalized version of the Su-27 Flanker) from Ukraine, and has reverse engineered the plane to produce its own naval fighter, designated the J-15. The Chinese plan to fly the J-15 off an aircraft carrier, if they’re ever able to produce a working one.
A Russian military official now says the Chinese fighter knock-off will be an inferior product:
“The Chinese J-15 clone is unlikely to achieve the same performance characteristics of the Russian SU-33 carrier-based fighter, and I won’t rule out the possibility that China could return to negotiations with Russia on the purchase of a substantial batch of SU-33s,” said Col. Igor Korotchenko, a member of the Defense Ministry’s Public Council.
Korotchenko said that China was unlikely to solve technical problems related to the design of the folding wings and to develop a reliable engine for the aircraft, although the first J-15 prototype reportedly made its maiden flight on August 31, 2009, powered by Chinese WS-10 turbofan engines.”
Of course, this could be an indication that Russia fears China is encroaching on potential foreign military sales. Or, the Chinese still aren’t able to produce cutting edge fighter aircraft of their own. Although, its not like a lot of countries are flying jets off carriers so I’m not sure how many sales the Chinese could potentially take away from Sukhoi.
– Greg Grant
{ 22 comments… read them below or add one }
? is who are they going to be able to buy a knock off from next and copy the design if they can't steal USA or ru Planes who comes next?
You’d think Russia would take the hint that anything they sell to China is going to be illegally copied and never purchased from them again. It’s shortsighted for Russia to be selling weapons and technology to the Chinese who are going to copy it and eventually use it against Russia when resources are needed in Siberia or they feel threatened in the Pacific.
This story just discredited the story that was on here last week about the Chinese are designing a fighter plane that would be on pare with the F22 Raptor. Now, if it took the Russians 20 years to fly a Prototype 5th generation fighter(PAK TA50) after the Raptor first flew. How long would it take the Chinese to truly design and build a first rate fighter late alone a carrier based or 5th generation fighter that is indigenius to China. I have my doubts, I think they are more a paper dragon than an emerging superpower. I'm sure a lot of you would disagree with that and I would love to hear your arguments.
It sounds like misdirection propaganda to me. Maybe its time to start worrying a little bit.
THE RUS REVERSE ENGINEERED OUR B-29'S TO THE TUNE OF 700
OR SO, BUGS AND ALL…. BY THE TIME THE RUS B-29's WERE ALL COMPLETED WE HAD THE B-47 PRETTY MUCH BUG FREE AND WELL ON
THE WAY WITH BUFF (B-52) PRODUCTION. I ALSO THINK IT'S TIME TO
WORRY.
Knockoff or not, the Chinese continue to demonstrate their ingenuity and resourcefulness which are not necessarily to be feared.
It's one thing to copy something, but quit another to develope it yourself. When you research and develope something, you gain a lot of knowledge that coping it, just will not give you and copies are always inferior.Its demostrates a lack of ingenuity when they copy something, because they have'nt gain the knowledge that will help them to take it a step further. For instance, the Russians sold the Chinese there S-300 Sam missles years ago and they haven't been able to copy these system and continue to purchase them from the Russians.The S-300 is said to be the Russian version of the American Patriot SAM system which is very sophisticated and not easy to reproduce in underdeveloped countries. China is no where near developed as the US and there arms industry is no where near as Sophiscated as the Russian arms industry.
How do you figure Chinese manufacturing capability is inferior to that of the US? Even though the competer chips were invented here they are now being imported from China and fabs in Asia; few if any domestic appliances are made in the US (even the Milwaukee brand power tools aren't made in Milwaukee but Florida) almost all the Craftsman, Dewalt, Black and Decker, etc. tols are made in Chinese factories – so where is our sophisticated manufacturing capacity? One F-22 or F-35 might be able to take out 6 or so 'inferior' foreign planes, but when you're out of missiles the remaining 10s or 100s of inferior planes can knock you out of the sky. What the Chinese don't have in quality now thay have in numbers – how many thousand missiles do they have pointed at Taiwan and they are still cranking more out. Perfection is the enemy of the good and if you launch a thousand missiles at a target at least one will get through and accomplish most of its objective. The only way to win against vast numbers is to use WMDs first, but being the 'nice guys' we won't.
Liz, Ingenuity and resourcefulness is not to be feared unless it is practiced by someone who considers you an inferior who temporarily ascended to heights that are not yours to climb. The inhabitants of the Middle Kingdom (China) look down upon the rest of the humansand even those on the outer borders of China as citizens of the Lower Kingdom who are destined to be ruled by their masters in the Middle Kingdom and used to further their fortunes and wel-being. In China if one is a foreigner and 'convicted of stealing trade secrets you go to jail immediately; in the U.S., you pay a fine or if you are lucky you can even get away with taking secret data about nuclear weapons and keep them in your home and just get forced to retire early!
Good Evening Folks,
I think Greg over looked a couple of points. First off The Russian Federation is actively marketing to and selling to two of China’s competitors for regional power, India and Vietnam. India has over 200 defense manufacturing licensing agreements with the The Russian Federation and several billions of USD’s in current defense contracts.
Vietnam has six Kilo’s on order, Russian is reactivating a plant to produce for them, Russia also a $1 billion contract to construct a new Naval Base for Vietnam (Cam Ranh Bay?) and an $11 billion nuclear reactor project in Vietnam meanwhile China has two of its four Soviet era Kilos in need of overhauls that must be done in The Russian Federation and four more boats that it would like to buy but can’t.
The second issue is that The Russian Federation is starting to see China as a regional competitor in both political and military influence. Think the Islamic Republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan and Mongolia. The thing in common of course is energy, gas and oil.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
The Cold war may be over but the true communist ideology of Russia and China have not changed. They may have geared capitalistic ideas into their politics but their goal is still to wage a worldwide political agenda. I think it is time to worry, then again we should always be on guard.
Russia is right. They know first-hand that reverse-engineering equipment creates an inferior product. They saw this time and again during the Cold War where, try as they might, their reproductions were never as efficient/effective as the originals. Not to mention the fact that reverse-engineering always puts you at least one step behind whoever you are stealing from.
For all the talk about Russia being short sighted I don't see anyone here addressing how much of our technology we've sold to China and our enemies in the middle east. While reverse engineering maybe ineffective in the short run, given enough time any country can decipher the technology behind it and gain an understanding. It's like giving an answer sheet to a math test: you may not know how to get the answers at first but eventually you'll find out how. And don't think they can't, because Rule number one is NEVER underestimate the enemy (potential or otherwise).
Chinese aircraft carrier? Who knows. Just let the time talk
If I was Russia I would be very worried about China having an aircraft carrier. THe reason for this is that one aircraft carrier would greatly facilitate an attack on the Kamchatka Naval Base is China was ever going to expand North bound. I may be wrong but without this base Russia would not be able to readily resupply any of its vessels in the Pacific
To Benjamin, I really doubt that China would ever attack a Russian base, that would be national suicide. but if that were to happen, how ironic would that be? Attacked by a aircraft carrier and aircraft which the Russians sold them…
Few question:-
1) The fact that a Su-33 clone is commented by such a high authoritative figure in the Russian experts only shows that they are aware of the likelihood that China may produced one that equal or surpassed their Su-33 later.
2) It also indicate that China had the ability not only to reverse-engineered such a complex plane altogether but also rebuilt them with less costs
3) With the integration of modern electronics and off-the-shelf gadgets, it is only a matter of time before the Chinese planes will exceed the Su-33 parameters. Coupled with the facts that there are other experts especially the "brain gain" that China received when she stated to open-up her country 30 years ago.
4) Even if the initial spec falls shorts of Su-33, China may and had the finance and ability to produce a 2nd, 3rd , 4th or even 5th prototype . What is the guarantee that it will not surpass the Su -33 which basically is from the 1980's technology?
The sad truth is that he who has the last weapon left wins -and if China can produce 300 pseudo SU33s while Russia can only produce 60 real ones -guess who is likely to win any later confrontation.
We in NATO used to laugh about the fact that much of the MIG 21 wasn't even flush-riveted. We laughed until someone pointed out that you only benefit by flush riveting in about the forward third of any given aircraft -aft of there it simply doesn't matter.
Those clever Reds had figured that out -and saved a fortune.
And with that fortune they bought enough MIG21s to outnumber us at least 3 to 1!
China continually exhibits the same sort of wisdom. They save much of the development cost -and end up with a pretty good product. Most important though -they end up with a huge number of the pretty good product -more than enough to inundate the opposition -be it the Russians -or us!
Never underestimate a potential enemy. Remember Pearl Harbour and the US tendency prior to that day of infamy to discredit Japanese technology. It is not technological prowess that wins -it is production numbers.
China understands production numbers!
Jock Williams Yogi 13
Do not sell the the Russians or the Chinese short on there war materials. Laugh if you wish, they have a different philosophy about war materials. They design them simple, and rugged. An uneducated, under privileged, destitute 12 year old can be trained to shoot an AK in what, 15 minutes. Sure they don't have the tactics to go with it, but they sure can kill. The Russian aircraft are not expected to ever have the engines changed out. Just go get another airplane. It is always easier to build new, than fix old. You do not spend billions on spare parts. Our equipment is better, our troops better trained! What weapon was carried during the invasion of Irag, by many of our troops. A found in the dirt, AK, which our guys knew would always work. Do not sell Russia or China short. Remember the Russians destroyed the German Army, when they were within what 15 miles of Moscow. The first rule of war, Do not under estimate you foe.
While a copied fighter may be inferior there is a tremendous level of information that is gained by reviewing every nut and bolt on the plane. You certainly get up to speed faster than a clean sheet design. In the short term what they may lack in quality they will make up for in quantity.
Any weapon is only as good as the people who use it. An aircraft is only as good as the pilot who flies it.
More than one German pilot lost to a bi-plane during WW11 flown by British and Russian pilots. The Russian pilots were mostly female pilots who flew these old aircraft till the end of the war.
Also remember that the Pocket Battle Ship Bismarck was hurt badly by a bi-plane and not by one of the top aircraft at that time.
The Mongol, the white and Japanese stold the the technology from China in the first place. The gun powder, the rocket technology and others were originately invented in China. If the west don't came from western Europe in 1400s they would still living in the cave now. China is not copy, but learning from every culture on this planet.
J-15 is Chinese indigious production, except the airframe, which is similar to the SU-33
The Russian and American are bad mouth about China, because they jealous of us