Conflicting statements from Russian officials on whether or not it will scrap the pending S-300 surface-to-air missile system sale to Iran because of new United Nations sanctions over Tehran’s continued pursuit of nuclear weapons. First, an “industry source” said the S-300 deal was off. Now, Russia’s Foreign Ministry says the sale is still on. Israel has stated publicly that the sale of S-300s to Iran is a red line that would prompt an Israeli military attack.
– Greg Grant
{ 95 comments… read them below or add one }
How does having an air defence system provoke an attack?
If anyone is the agressor it's Israeli these days.
Is this a serious question? It is a sufficiently sophisticated to make Israeli losses unacceptable after it is deployed around Iran's nuclear infrastructure. Love 'em or hate 'em, Israel has the idea of proactive defense down pat.
"Proactive defense" means being the aggressor.
You think that, just maybe, if Iran wasn't calling for the destruction of Israel on at least a weekly basis then they wouldn't be so concerned about Iran getting an air defense system? If I'm thinking that I might have to fight a guy soon, I'm going to object to him taking self defense classes.
Defense and Offense are innately related. Having a stronger air defense system could give Iran the confidence to be more aggressively militarily.
Astute observation. More capable defensive systems free up more strategically mobile units for offensive operations, if desired.
You need to WAKE UP! How would you like to have Iran in your back 40…
iran is way to aggressive to the israeli people.threatened to many times.when you have an enemy building up there defences.and there is potential for military action.you hit them before there defences are upgraded to high
The answer is simple. When Cuba allowed Russia to place ICBM's in Cuba, what did the US do? When your most outspoken critic, one that has advocated for the complete and utter destruction of your race attempts to beef up their ability to withstand a counter attack, you take the offensive.
You are completely clueless.
Take a class or two in national security policy……forget it, just go back to American Idol and Jersey Shores.
wake up and smell the expresso , dude, read the Bible!
Let me get this straight: Iran threatens to wipe Israel off the map, and Israel threats to bomb some military equipment. Who's the aggressor?
Iran creates a proxy army Hezbollah that attacks the sovereign territory of Israel. Israel has never attacked Iran. Who's the aggressor?
When Israel creates a proxy army on the border of Iran and launches missiles indiscriminately into cities intended to terrorize and kill civilians, you'll have my attention.
yeah , thats the `amazing` israel that attacked an aid ship and killed 9 unarmed people – what next , sinking a hospital ship?
israel is the agressor these days
The looney left is heard from again.
They can't help it, too narrow of a perspective.
You forgot in international waters like a Somali pirate. If they had to intervene they should have wiated until it was in their territorial waters so it would look like a defense issue.
WTB
That wouldn't have made a difference. For the people that think Israel exists illegally(or not at all), they have no territorial waters. So, they would still complain.
Israel reserves the right to defend itself. They had a well established and well advertised blockade, and the 'activists decided to go ahead anyway. Israel is in a COMPLETELY different situation than the US or any other NATO country. We can't tell them they're being too strict. I say don't f*** with Israel unless you want a Tavor's barrel in your mouth.
How was this comment from Sarah posted just 1 hour ago? Has she not seen the videos of IDF soilders with paintball guns being beaten with metal rods and knifes? Has she not seen the photos of IDF soilders on the ground with bloody faces??
Photos: http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/photo…
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
Well,, if you try and board my boat, you might get f-ed up also. These IDF guys got what they deserve.
They were ignoring Israeli warnings that they were violating the blockade and that they would use force if they did not comply. And Israel does allow aid through so long as their are no weapons onboard, which they check for at an Israeli port. Once it checks out the aid ship could go on its merry way. But they didn't comply and Israel was well within its rights to board that ship. And not surprisingly they found body armor, weapons and other military gear. Going to a group that calls for Israel's destruction.
The blockade is illegal and Israel had no right to board the ship in international waters. That they gave "warnings" is meaningless. If I were to try to carjack you and gave you a "warning" before I actually forced my way into your car, it wouldn't make my actions legal.
Right – and the Hamas/Al Queda Terrorists (aka "activists") got what THEY deserved, too . . . hot lead.
How many people die when you play paintball? Israeli commandoes killed 9 people. Whether you think they had a right to board or not quit the idiotic propaganda about them only having paintball guns.
I see another Flotilla arrived here….Hey, tell me if Hamas has even distributed the cargo. It is clear Turkey and Hamas planned violence and the question is when will the communications be leaked that had Erdogan telling Israel there would be no violence. 40 Turkish terrorist boarded after the security checks and the video evidence is proof enough. One would think Leftist would at least understand the problem with marriage to radical Islam…..but them love is blind.
Nobody here said "only" paintball guns. They roped in with paintball guns and only AFTER one of them had their skull cracked by a metal pipe and another soldier thrown overboard did they go for their pistols.
And oh, by the way in case you forgot, the US did the same thing during the Cuban Missile Crisis. We boarded Soviet commercial shipping in international waters. Lucky for history that the Soviet crews didn't get rowdy.
They kept sidearms with them in case the paintballs were ineffective you nitwit. And when people hitthem with knives, bars and pistols they damn well are gonna pull out their side arms and shoot back.
9 people that were attqacking them with knives pipes and chains after they had been warned away and continued to try to break a blockade in place to prevent the smuggling of weapons
Did you see the "aid" that was hidden beneath the sacks of flour? http://www.terredisrael.com/wordpress/?p=22059
Faker than a 3-dollar bill.
the crew on that ship were armed.and refused to be boarded sucks to be them go isreal
Israel is objecting to Iran getting a purely defense weapon when Israel has offense nukes? You've got to be kidding me! No wonder Israel has no friends besides America.
Hey David, let's put in another way. Let's just say that Mexico wants to retake their 'former' territory (of California, Nevada, Oregon, New Mexico, Utah and Arizona), claiming that its their land and we have no right to it. Now they are also saying everyday that they will wipe us off the face of the map and at the same time we know they are developing nuclear weapons. Now they decide to get some nice Russian SAM systems, so what would you do?
Well the current administration would start talks on how we could return the disputed land to Mexico, in return for them not invading.
You're absolutely right. But these libs (or muslims) will never listen. I say ******! If the UN won't do **** about Iran even after Iran has repeatedly threatened to wipe Israel off the face off the map then Israel can do what it needs to do to defend itself from a homicidal regime controlled by a ******* insane leader.
David's point still stands.
It hardly helps anyone to skew the contextual view of Iran's actions by tabling random stuff like Mexico declaring war on the U.S. It's a defense weapon and not worth creating a fuss about.
Good friend to have.
These SAMs are used to defend Iran's nuke program, until the nukes are completed and passed of to terrorists to smuggle into Israel and possibly the US. So if you consider Hitler's bodyguard's "purely defensive" and they should be left alone, then yea, you have a point.
I think that Russia is operating on the basis of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Russia has not been the friend of the U.S. since the days of the Czars, and Iran is certainly our enemy. That same air defense system will shot down U.S. planes as easily as it will Isreali planes.
Russian arms sales to Iran and (allegedly) North Korea are certainly a form of counter-balancing. From the Russian perspective, it's a win-win. Strengthen our enemy's enemies, and make money doing it. That said – this will eventually come back to sting them when China improves their reverse-engineered Federation products and sells them at a tenth of the cost.
oh please you are talking about the two best airforces in the history of the world.lessthan two weeks the iranians are done
I think the Russian S-systems are a lot of bluster without much action. Has anyone ever been able to confirm that they can actually track and engage stealth? My understanding is that Almaz can barely produce one complete system (command post and battery) a year.
Either way, lets assume that the Russians actually were capable of creating a SAM system that could counter western air technology. Does any really think that Israel would risk a nuclear Iran over possibly losing some aircraft in a preemptive strike?
Let's not forget, when Israel bombed Syrians nuke plant they effectively eliminated any SAM threat with their version of SOTOR. And the early reports were that Syria had at least one PMU2 on the ground. A point the Russians were very, very quick to claim untrue…
Stealth is actually more of a counter-measure then an invulnerability now. Networked radars, although expensive and technically intricate, make it possible to get locks on stealth aircraft. Naturally, it's not as cut-and-dry as a missile shot against a target with a normal cross-section, but when you can ripple-fire your SAMs, and the stealth aircraft are two-hundred million a unit, the advantages dry up pretty quickly.
Just another reason to adopt lower-cost stealth aircraft like the Stealth Eagle.
I recall very old (vietnam-era) Russian missiles downing an F-16 and an F-117 over Yugoslavia. The S-300 is decades more advanced, so yes, it is a *serious* threat.
In any case the bulk of the US and Israeli air forces are F-16s and F-15s, hardly stealth aircraft.
True–but they can probably counter the missles with H A R Ms wild weasels and the sheer number of attacking aircraft–not to mention stand off cruise missles and other munitions which the U S will certainly provide.
Surely you jest! The Russians may not be able to do many things as a race and or country but they have produced some of the most awesome weapon systems of the 20/21st centuries. Just ask any Vietnam era military pilot about their surface to air missle systems.
If you want to look for an aggressor, I suggest you look at Turkey. Iran with its repeated pronouncements of destroying Israel and killing the Jews is a given.
Turkey has been beating the war drums for quite sometime now. And sending a bunch of terrorists masquerading as civilians is just one move.
As far as the likes of Sara, David and John Moore are concerned, perhaps you should do a little research instead of regurgitating the BS you see in the NYT and CNN.
I'd highly suggest doing your own research. The "wiped off the face of the earth" comment came in a speech about regime change in Israel. I'm not sure where your comments about killing the Jews came from either. The current regime in Iran is obviously hostile towards Israel, but, lets keep it a bit in context here. How many countries has Iran invaded lately? I'm not an Iran apologist by any means, but come on… Regarding our NATO allies in Turkey, weren't they recently conducting joint training with Israel?
Joint training that gives Turkey information to feed to Iran on how Israel conducts its war operations. Not to mention Turkey is still helping Iran! They're still wrong!
Are you allergic to reality? Turkey has no alliance with Iran. They're not helping Iran in anything. They USED to have an alliance with Israel, until the far right Israeli government put an end to that.
Well, recently Iran has put special ops troops into Iraq, it has advisors in Syria, and advisors, if not spec ops personnel into Lebannon and Gaza. Iran is also believed to be offering support to the Taliban.
Turkey had a secular government and was a valuable member of Nato 10 years ago. Since that time the Islamists have taken control of its government, and are imposing sharia law. Turkey's government is no longer secular. It is Islamist and can no longer be considered a friend to the U.S. or any other non-Muslim country.
You're an idiot and a liar. Turkey's "secular" government was based on cult worship of Ataturk and religious oppression of both Muslims and Christians. The current majority party is far more democratic and is not imposing sharia law.
Don't be so naive!
The Great Powers also thought Mein Kampf was an exaggerated tome for local consumption. he means what he says and his financial and military help to Hamas, Hezb'allah, Syria and anti-US forces in Iraq speaks volumes. You can avert your eyes if you want, but you will still feel the bite on your ass probably sooner than later.
Turkey has cancelled military cooperation with Israel and has purged its pro-west military leaders. All that's left is a pro-Islamist government and a military to do its nefarious bidding.
The only thing Turkey wants from Israel is its technological know-how…to use it against Israel itself.
As far as killing Jews, perhaps you should read the Arab and Iranian press.
While the 'wiped off the face of the earth' comment was originally mistranslated, the Iranians have since endorsed and repeated it. Oh, and lets not forget that Holocaust denial conference.
To the 'how many countries has Iran invaded lately', well they have a long track record of supporting terrorists and revolutionaries including in Iraq.
That being said it is important to distinguish between rhetoric intended for domestic and Islamic-nationalistic consumption and statements of intended international policy. Inferring that Iran is actually set on killing all Jews would be kind of like inferring from some of Bush's comments that he was setting up the 10th crusade.
I call BS. How long have the Russians been using this sale for politca leverage with us, better have never chosen to never go through with it?
It's much better to save your bargaining chip to get more concessions out of the current Administration.
It is possible that with an intricate network of radars you can detect stealth aircraft. The distance at which you will be able to do this with any degree of accuracy, however, is likely to be considerably lower than the normal detection range of a given radar system.
When you consider the accuracy of the signal, especially with all the electronic warfare capabilities of the AN/APG-77 and assisting standoff jamming aircraft, however; getting the missile close enough to destroy a fast moving bird 50k+ feet in the air is another issue. The shotgun approach is probably the best bet but the odds are still poor.
It isn't in Russia or China's interests to have matters like Iran and North Korea settled. When you consider their defense spending is based on the US having to deal with issues like Iran and North Korea, if those two knuckle head regimes go away it frees up a great deal of US resources.
its clear russia is not our ally. we should do everything possible to make sure that Israel has the weapons to stop this.
i completely agree
with irans nuclear intentions and the call they put out regularly to have isreal destroyed i dont think the US is doing enough to help an ally in need at this time we need to be a bigger protector of isreal now more than ever
Really???
Why?
Frankly, what does it matter to the US what happens to Israel.
(from a strategic point for view – rather than humanitarian or financial, or whatever…)
A halfway decent case could be made that Israel is more trouble than it is worth…
Always remembering the saying, countries don't have permanent friends, they only have permanent interests.
One reason for defending Israel that appeals to me is that it ticks off the anti-semitic cosmos. That alone makes it worthwhile.
If we were bothered by Russian SAM'S, why not just buy some from Ukraine or Greece w/c are US and western pro and NATO friends, study them and modify our defences?
its not that we are worried about them having a better defense than us, its what they can effectively protect. if they are able to keep areas from being attacked you are free to do as you please. which in then case is nuclear weapons.
Russia is still playing the same game, have been since early 1900, pit one nation against the other.As for Israel, how many enemies do they have? and they have the right to protect themselves. Most haters and self proclaim experts don't even research their BS before throwing pointless claims. Iran is not anyone friend.
I was part of the Cold War. i dealt with the Russians many a time. DON’T EVER TRUST THEM! they do things for one reason and one reason only to mess with us……….
I'm always impressed by the lack of knowledge displayed by my fellow nit wit Americans. Is a SAM system still considered a passive system when it is protecting your ongoing nuclear program? Iran needs another 5 to 10 years, that's it…..Thank God Israel will take care of the problem, if we relied on the US to do it nothing would happen, just like North Korea. Love them or hate them the Israels do what has to be done.
hoorah
just wait when we get a new administration they will clean house and do what needs to be done provided that isreal hasnt already dont it for us haha
I am Palestinian. You think you are helping us by giving aid to Hamas. They pick and choose whho the help. They give somethinb but want yuo spill your blood for them. If you don't fight Israeli you are killed by them
Apperently you need a leason in english, and your facts are totally off the chart, Israel is not the problem, you are, tell your terrorist buddy's everyone is tried of hatered and you only poison the fruit not solving the problem at hand.
Apparently you need a lesson in spelling and reading jvwile. The person was writing to explain that aid to HAMAS was not a good thing as HAMAS does what it wants with it, instead of using it to help the Palestinian people. Also they state that if you do not help kill Israeli's, you your self will be killed.
Read before you respond.
Apparently you need a lesson in English, too.
To all of you who thing Isreal is the aggressor you definately don't know history or the truth. learn or burn.
U.S. is no more following the interest of Americans. The administration is just serving the israeli interests. When USA lose power jewish citizens of U.S. will immigrate the strongest power on earth, like the parasites exploiting the dogs. Following the jewish orders broughts and keep bringing american kids crippled back home
Regardless of what anyone thinks of Israel or Palestinians or N. Korea… the issue here is Iran and their acquisition of nuclear weapons. The Iranian leadership has made it clear they intend to use those weapons to destroy Israel. If this is true, why should they be allowed to have them?
That is a lot of ignorance for one thread…this is not a black and white issue.
I agree that this thread is packed solid with ignorance which seems to be more and more of a trait with our American society. For the folks that jump out and accuse israel of being the aggressor it is obvious that they do not know much about world history or more likely are to lazy to read. For that matter they do not seem to be able to keep up with current events either. However, I am no champion of Israel anyway. I do take exception to the implied idea that Iran is just a peaceful nation going about its business. I am an American, Iran has loudly and persistently proclaimed that America is the evil empire and that the end of it and the American way of life is a top priority for Iran. Does it really seem sensible to any American who has even a limited intelligence to allow Iran to gain a nuclear capability. It certainly does not seem sensible to me.
i completely agree. we need to help the israelis' take control of the situation, before it gets messy for everyone. lets just help no one is really stupid enough to start a nuclear war. then everyone will be trigger happy.
Before any bombing we will fry thier computers, jam any radar or kill it, then smash them. The Russians are STILL clearly on the "Dark Side"….i never liked them..
Israel the aggressor? I don't blame them at all, hopefully they will take care of the Iranian nuke threat. We been at war w/ Iran for a long time, we just refuse to believe it.
Russia has demonstrated it has no anti-terrorism policy but a pro-terrorism policy. They continue to supply countries like Iran's terrorist hegemony. They will continue to supply Mexican, and Central and South American Drug Cartels with small arms to propagate terrorism on our southern boarder. Russia & Red China will continue to ferment terrorist activities against the United States as a pro-terrorist policy. Both countries will continue to support terrorist activity against Israel to keep the Middle East in termoil and to keep our troops pinned down in countries like Irag, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.
These anti-Israel people are so misinformed. Just like most of the world that believe everything they see on the news and read in the newspaper.
has anyone reading these comments ever stopped to consider that we the American Public paid extreme fuel prices because the oil was shipped through Russia, supposedly to bolster their economy ? We Americans are always getting the short end of the stick by our tax dollars paying foriegn aid to the rest of the world and then we borrow money from Red China to pay the debts while taxing the hell outta the "American People"
cont fr above::::::::::
now heres Russia our so called ally selling SAM's to Iran..make no mistake, Iran once it develops the ability to use Nuke missles, will fire them at Israel. But at the same time remember we also have in my opinin a ******* president who has no combat experience, no knowledge on how to win a war, and no Manpower to fight another battle front.. (and china is building up troops)(wonder what they plan?)(Probably the same as when Korea was slugging it out before and China sent in 1 million ground troops against America and its allies..
»Israel is objecting to Iran getting a purely defense weapon when Israel has offense nukes?«
There's no such thing as "pure defense weapons"!
The main purpose of SAMs is to protect your own military operations from enemy airplanes and missiles.
In this context: Iran would use S-300s to protect their A-Bomb project – which is currently the greatest threat to Israel's existence.
-> Israel will do anything to stop the delivery.
So, is Air Defences are a threat and an offensive weapon and gives Israel the right to attack Iran, does Russia have an even bigger right to attack the US and Poland? You know, that famous missile "shield¨ with big "defensive" missiles in the frontier with Russia
Are the rules the same for all or not?
"How does having an air defence (sic) system provoke an attack?"
By putting a serious air defense shield over Iran's nuclear weapons program, it would somewhat protect against an effective, preemptive, non-nuclear strike. That would then allow Iran to build the crude atomic bombs it could use to make good on the promise to kill all Jews.
"If anyone is the agressor (sic) it's Israeli (sic) these days."
How so? Gaza is Israeli territory. Don't think so – then which nation owns it? The only other border is on Egypt, which has the very same blockade for the very same reason (keep terrorists bottled up).
Did Israel launch 3,000 warheads into Gaza?
Has Israel sworn to kill every Palestinian? Every Arab? Who?
Is Israel conquering more territory, when they certainly could if they wanted to?
Exactly which definition of aggressor are you using? Or are you just making it up?
Israel has approximately 150 deliverable nukes. They could easily vaporize their neighbors with impunity. Does anyone really think their restraint would be shown by any of those Arab nations if the positions were reversed?
And you call them the aggressor? Go back to a middle school history class and try again.
Stay on topic Edward. 'Guest' made a good point.
Creating peace between two pissed off nations takes balls and nerve. Israel are despicable for trying to use this S-300 system as an excuse to "scream rape" when they themselves are the ones with nukes AND the backing of the U.S.A.
If anything, Israel's stance on this matter only highlights their own aggression.
To all you Israeli & Jew haters, here's something you WON'T want to see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca48ocpFBiE&fe…!
That being said, now you can go back to Al-Jazeera . . . you like THEIR ****.
Way to be a great ally Russia… selling weapons to a bunch of radicals trying to build nukes. And despite what they say, the Russians know why the Iranians want these systems.
At least they are not the more accurate and harder to jam S-400 (SA-21) model.
The Russians and the Chinese like to leave stones in our passage way because every minute we spend focused on Iran or N.Korea is a day we aren't focused on Russia or China.
The S300s are a bargaining chip meant to confound our agenda vis a vis the respective regions . If the S300s are never even deployed by Iran they have still served their purpose of giving the US and Israel pause. And should we or Israel
take unsanctioned action against Iran, then it could give the Russians the pretext they need to arm Iran with 'defensive weapons'.
Of course, holding the S300 bait out in front of Iran's nose confounds the Iranians as well and probably works better than sanctions ever would. The Russians are playing their hand quite well I think.
As an aside:
"Is Israel conquering more territory, when they certainly could if they wanted to?"
Perhaps not in one fell swoop, but each settlement or fenced off security cordon the Israelis build is one more piece of land that will never again be inhabited by local Palestinians. Be it Likud or Labor, neither government has ever stopped the building of new settlements in disputed territory. Its the Death by a Thousand Cut version of annexation.
Israel has in the past destroy easly what was claim the best russian system .Israel crushed in the beeka in 1982 a field of russian sam 6 for syrian forces .Israel is largely better than US to counter Sam or developped counter measure system. .
If the US and/or Israel are truly serious about taking out Iran`s nuclear sites, believe me these S3000 will be of little use. The US and Israel have similar, if not better systems as well as countermeasures, and would get the job done, IF ordered to. I can see the S300s to be effective against less well-equiped and less-trained regional enemy air forces, but definitely not against the US, UK or Israel. Enough said there. All we need is the political will….
Did you miss the shootdown of an F-117 by a 1960s-era missiles in the 1990s?
Imagine:
You have fanatic living down the block who repeatedly swears he is going to murder you, your wife, and kids. He has already given guns to both of your neighbors who also want to kill you. He murdered your cousins in south america a few years ago. Now he is building a bomb in the back of his pickup truck and announcing he will drive it into your house and blow you up. He builds it with his garage wide open, and when the local policedrive by they just say "tsk tsk!".
This is pretty scary, but you have a rifle and are pretty sure you could shoot him before he came to murder you with his bomb.
However, now he has ordered a bullet proof vest. Your rifle fire might penetrate the vest before he can deliver the bomb. It might not.
Worried? Worried enough to shoot him before he gets the vest?
There is an ancient Chinese curse: "may you live in interesting times". We are living it.