The first photos are coming in from China’s PLA Navy’s live fire exercises conducted in the East China Sea some time yesterday. The above photo shows a Type 022 Houbei fast attack missile catamaran, in its distinctive camouflage pattern, firing one of its YJ-83 anti-ship missiles.
The above photo shows PLAN officers posing for the cameraman pointing at a computer screen and pretending to talk on some old school looking telephones. More photos can be found here on the China Daily site. An English language news report can be found here, though, regrettably, it doesn’t have any action footage.
No word yet on whether the PLA tested their dreaded DF-21D carrier killing ballistic missile.
– Greg Grant
{ 39 comments… read them below or add one }
Good Morning Greg,
Any word on what was suppose to be the main attractions of this PRC Naval exercise, the launch of an ASCM and a ASBM at sea against moving targets? Also the much promised BM’s display by the 2nd. Artillery Corps?
I haven’t seen anything about these much expected demonstrations but was hoping that you guys had.
Other then the PLAN can do a great paint job on its ship as can the rest of the PLA can do on its equipment, what am I suppose to be seeing here that should strike terror in my old bones?
I see what looks like four Su-30M’s. a sub frigate class ship patrol boat firing a missile, what look like a short range (US AIM-9 Sidewinder copy?) heat seeking shipboard air defense missile being fired. Some ships at sea, and some PLAN personal in there new uniforms with as you say one is holding “…old school looking telephones.”
If the PLAN wanted to be impressive to the world regarding PRC’s sea power and from the ocean power projection, they came up way short. It takes more then a “cool” paint job and new snappy looking uniforms to bake a blue water navy.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Yeah, but you still have to give them credit for the paint job.
The important thing is that the Chicoms have a blue water navy that is increasing in size, as our navy gets smaller, and smaller and older.
US vs. China
Carriers: 10 vs. none
SSNs: 54 vs. 5
Cruisers + Destroyers: 78 vs. 26
… I could keep going, but the point is: doom and gloom and budget cuts aside, we would have to get much, much smaller, and China much, much bigger, before their navy became a threat to ours.
US vs China
a few hundred years of history vs thousands
Much debt vs many debtors
Restraints on Military budgets vs Growing military influence
current conflicts focus vs focus on a future battle
How does history magically make a nation's military better? Italy has history going back to the Etruscans, but it's not relevant to their military today.
Debt and industrial capability are probably on the list. We are taking the place of WW2 era Japan-make nice toys but unable to make a lot of them. China will take the place of WW2 America-the industrial capacity to make okay stuff and accept losses.
We have restraints on our military budget because it's so big, overall revenue is down and social spending rises (rate of change of social spending rises as well).
China has the luxury of planning future battle because they're not in a mudpit like Iraq or Afghanistan. We're going to be stuck with a pile of tankettes (MRAPS) that are good for yesterday's wars. At least the old military dinosaur still has enough Cold War hardware that should be somewhat relevant for tomorrow.
China isn't looking to put a warship into every body of water and fight there (at least not for a long time). Since China seems more concerned with controlling Taiwan and local interests, a better comparison would be the number of ships we possess vs the number of anti-ship missiles they possess and the means to deliver them. They don't need to defeat out Navy ship to ship – rather they need to keep us out of their way.
Damn Right!
Carrier = big fat expensive target. In WWII we had dozens of carriers and more abuilding. Now, we have ten and when they are gone there aint no more.
And that ignores substantive technology differences, too.
Greg should have pointed out that they are short and wearing glasses too.
The Chinese are clearly putting all their eggs in the basket of denying access. We should put our efforts into by passing theirs. Long range maritime strike, more attack subs, more capability like the SSGNs. Increasing the carrier strike range with an X47esque option. Sea borne ABM capabilities.
We need the capability to do any kind of military operation neccessary. From counter-insurgency, long range strike warfare to traditional warfare. We need to invest heavily on those capabilities (not just money but time and brain power. Think of ways to reduce unneccesary spending and increase in areas that are lacking, like cyberwarfare. Cut costs in say the Camoflague department)
I suppose if we develop EMP weapons or invest in ways to cripple their military infrastructure (persistent jamming?) we can neutralize defensive advantages.
Alternatively detonating a nuke in upper atmosphere to EMP all of East Asia is a scorched earth option that will make Russia very, very, very, very angry…
Ok they got thier point. Its time to buy some Type 022 catamaran fron the chinese? Maybe if we do they'll say buy one take one. (Humor)
You have to give it to them, after 200 year our navy till cannot figure out what a good uniform is. They figured it out.
It makes me wonder what else they are getting right…..
Yes, I was a squid, and hated the uniforms……
Yea that's why John Paul Jones wore a British uniform. ;)
Good Afternoon Folks,
The Type 022 Houbei is 220 ton patrol boat, speed 36kts, can carry 8 missiles either LAM’s or ASCM’s and has a single 30mm gun, and a crew of 12. This is hardly a blue water craft. The Chinese have produced 81 of them. They have been exported to Pakistan. The YJ-83 is the C-803 ASCM, 165 kg warhead and a 120 mile range, hardly a threat to the USN.
But the Chinese still do a cool paint job.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
I agree but those are 8 very accurate anti ship missiles per Type 022. How can our ship dock that?
Unless Pakistan will share what they have bought (type 022) to us and modify our defenses.
Or purchase one missile boat from Georgia (former Russia), study its capabilities and modify our defenses.
The catamaran design means these boats, despite their small tonnage, are far more seaworthy than single-hull ships of similar tonnage. Moreover, the Type 022 is clearly designed to be stealthy and fast, so they may approach our ships and fire a full salvo before darting out of the engagement area. Of course, targeting information will have to come from elsewhere, but once these little boats receive it, we'd better watch out.
Very scary esp off Hawaii as id be in line to be hit ala Nuclear Pearl Harbor but by missiles vs planes.
Or near any US fleet or cruise liner in the Pacific area.
Great timing. RIMPAC 2010 is underway as we speak.
Good Evening Folks,
One missing point in this story, what was the target for the YJ-83, did the Chinese hit it. The PLA (PLAN) are very good at not saying something, leaving it for assumptions. I’m still trying to figure out how an ADM with a 350 km range can knock down a BM at 500 km. Life is full of mysteries.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
We'll never know if they hit anything but the boat firing the missle sure put a scare in me–hahaha
As an ex-Navy, I never understood why all our ships are battleship grey (except the subs). It looks like if you wanted to camouflage a ship, you would paint it something closer to green/blue seawater. The Chinese ships camouflage isn't very good IMO, but I think they are on the right track.
Is it tradition that keeps the US Navy grey or just stupidity?
They just don't want to spend the extra money on a special paint job that won't hide the ships radar signature anyway–but the PLAN paint job does look pretty cool.
You could argue that it's more worthwhile for a patrol boat, which is quite likely to be doing littoral patrols, potentially against pirates in RIBs, etc (where visual range matters a lot more) than for something like a destroyer or carrier.
On a similar note, arguably the LCS should at least look at being camo-ed up.
I believe the idea behind haze grey is that at a distance at or near the horizon the haze grey helps the ship blend in with the sky as opposed to the ocean. For what it's worth the various world navies experimented with camouflaging their ships during both WW I & II and (I think) in the end they ultimately found it not to be worth the effort. For a look at some interesting attempts at camouflaging ships (mostly from subs) look up dazzleflage, the German warships Bismark or Tirpitz (I think) used a variation of that during WW II.
Dazzle camouflage is actually what the chinese are using here. The idea is to break the ship into pieces so that it becomes almost impossible to determine the range to target, as opposed to blending in to the background.
Obviously back in the day when naval warfare was based on line-of-sight detection & engagement with naval cannons this was a lot more effective. Nowadays using an anti-radar/sonar paintjob & construction would be more applicable since now its all about reducing your signiature within the EM spectrum, as opposed to the visual spectrum.
It's really unnecessary. With modern weapons and ability to strike long distances, one will never be up close to appreciate each other's camouflages. It does make the babes excited when hitting the ports though…
"The YJ-83 is the C-803 ASCM, 165 kg warhead and a 120 mile range, hardly a threat to the USN."
Depends on the sensors backing it up. As a spec, that sounds pretty similar to Harpoon – the main US ship-to-ship weapon (other than, of course, the aircraft off a carrier).
Camoflage scheme – Good
Interest level of extreme left-hand officer* – Not So Good.
* Anyone able to translate PLA insignia into ranks?
He's standing RIGHT on the operator's earhole, and sneering. He's older and looks like a sadist.
Sounds like a WO1 to me.
Agree… imagine a swarm of these boats firing a full salvo against a carrier. Say, 5 type 022 closing in on the carrier battle group, each firing 8 ascms, for a total of 40 missiles. I'd say this is a pretty dire scenario.
This boat has the the capability to sink a boat. These are some detail overview of type 022 china's missile boat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File%3AType022.png?p… http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f… http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/chin… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houbei_class_missile… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houbei_class_missile… http://www.deagel.com/Corvettes-and-Missile-Boats… http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/04/us-cant-s… http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/littoral/type022…. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1934485/…
I think we need to find ways to create a defensive mechanism against this threat.
We already have the solution and have had it for decades, in fact there are 3 layers of defense against anti-ship missiles. The first layer of defense are our own missiles, all of our surface combat ships have missiles that are designed to intercept anti-ship missiles, why else do you think our carriers have so many escorts. Failing the missiles we have decoys like chaff/flares and ECM to try to dupe the missiles into either losing lock on our ship or lead it astray and go after the decoy. And for a last ditch measure we have CIWS and RIM missiles for that last ditch defense although I think the RIMs might be less last ditch than the CIWS.
At any rate we are not exactly defenseless against these Chinese missile boats. You forget, these things and anti-ship missiles aren't exactly new and the days of relying on armor and simply absorbing the blows are long over. Before the Chinese started to flex their muscles and develop their navy we were preparing to deal with Soviet Navy who also had shipborne anti-ship missiles along with airborne cruise missiles to be launched from the likes of Backfire bombers.
Good Morning Folks,
To Locarno. The problem with over the horizon missiles for China is that so far lack the radar/sensor/satellite/ technology capabilities to target a maritime target beyond it’s own on board radars. I’m sure blinding the PLAN’s radars is among the first war time activity of any possible foe.
Yes the PLAN does very much admire the US Harpoon. That’s all that can be said in the open on this topic.
ALLONS,
Byron Skinner
Perhaps its high time to produce 5000 advance long range / unmaned -unlimited missile/ torpedo boats of our (USA) own for defense.