Home » Air » Air Force » Stand-Off Precision Strike Or Stealthy Penetrating Aircraft; Israel Debates

Stand-Off Precision Strike Or Stealthy Penetrating Aircraft; Israel Debates

by Greg on July 30, 2010

CSBA’s whip smart strategist Jim Thomas contends that as precision targeting and guided weapons proliferate, both high-end and low-end wars will unfold in far less “permissive” operating environments. Battlefield advantage has swung back in favor of the defender, he says, with the further maturation of reconnaissance-strike networks warfare may be entering the “post-power projection era.”

The weapons acquisition choice, Thomas said, is either to go cheap and disposable, with drones, long range missiles and robots that can be thrown at an enemy’s missile magazines without much regret, or ultra-costly, high-end and stealthy and try to slyly maneuver your way past an enemy’s defenses.

A good example of that debate is going on right now in Israel as it considers whether to spend $2.7 billion for the first 19 of a larger planned buy of the stealthy fifth-generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, or, to upgrade the current fleet of attack jets with better sensors and very-long range guided missiles. Not to say that Israel’s current fleet of modified F-15s and F-16s are cheap and disposable, but as Aviation Week’s David Fulgham reports, some in the Israeli brass think hanging newer and more standoff missiles on the jet’s wings is smarter than spending so much on the platform itself.

“The [shrinking] force structure problem points us toward fewer, but more sophisticated platforms,” says Air Force Lt. Gen. Dani Halutz, former chief of the Israel Defense Force. “The F-35 fits this trend exactly. If its performance is as advertised, it will allow us to cope with a shrinking budget and force size.”

The counterpoint is offered by retired Army Maj. Gen. Giora Eiland, a former head of Israel’s national security council. His argument is that it makes more sense to pit salvoes of long-range air-launched guided missiles against an enemy’s air-defense missile magazines than a limited number of very prized platforms.

“If we continue to use the very advanced [versions of the] F-16 and F-15 and upgrade some of the systems, we could save so much money that we could buy other important systems like ground-based missiles. And you can use more [air-launched] standoff weapons because they have extreme precision and a very long effective range. You don’t have to put all your effort into the aircraft.”

I think this debate is just getting going as defense planners wrestle with flat or declining budgets, platform cost growth and the proliferation of relatively low-cost guided weaponry. It’s a debate I expect will take place in all three domains: maritime, air and on land.

– Greg Grant

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{ 78 comments… read them below or add one }

Tony C July 30, 2010 at 7:36 pm

The time of missile versus missile and our robots are better than your robots is upon us.
Technology is increasingly replacing the man in the loop until the man is only there
to watch the results. Artificial Intelligence is almost a reality and soon the UCAV,
Unmanned Armored Vehicle, and Unmanned Submersible will be the weapon systesm of choice by the world's armed forces.

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Thud105 July 30, 2010 at 9:31 pm

Ah, yes….the classic argument in favor of technology. As old an argument as time itself. Every generation claims that technology has made mankind obsolete, that there's no need for a man to put himself in harm's way because technology has made it unnecessary. Time and time again this argument gets proven wrong when tested by fire and yet it continues because every generation falls back to the classic, "Look how far we've come! We're right this time!"

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Jacob July 31, 2010 at 9:39 pm

"Technology is increasingly replacing the man in the loop until the man is only there
to be used as an organic power source for the machine civilization."

Fixed!

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John Moore July 30, 2010 at 8:00 pm

What are those sholder pads the f-16 is wearing can anyone please tell me?

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Rusty July 30, 2010 at 8:11 pm

The "shoulder pads" are conformal fuel tanks. On the same subject, what is the weapons load out under the wings?

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Marcase July 30, 2010 at 8:54 pm

Typical 'Iranian Nuke Reactor Special' load-out – Amraams, Sidewinders, 2,000lb LGBs, extra fuel tanks and LANTIRN targeting/nav pods.

This debate btw is something that is getting more attention in Europe as well. The JSF is a phenomenal plane, with a phenomenal pricetag. Pretty soon it won't be a choice, but a necessity to focus on cheaper weapons vs expensive planes.

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bill July 31, 2010 at 4:10 pm

center fuel tank flanked by two pods probably a laser pointer and a defenseive counter measure pod, then two laser guided bombs (probably 1,000 pounders) then out board there are two heat seeking misssiles for defense

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Dom August 3, 2010 at 12:15 pm

Bill, Marcase is right the two pods on either side of the bottom fuel tank are LANTIRN (Low Altitude InfraRed for Night) Pods. The pod to the left of the tank is a Targeting pod that contains an infrared camera for finding targets and a laser designator to mark a target for Laser Gudided Bombs. The pod to the right of the tank is a Navigational Pod that contains an infrared camera and Terrain Following Radar that allows the Fighter to fly at very low levels in inclement weather so as to fly under the radar.

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jhm September 23, 2010 at 8:01 pm

Teh bombs are too large to be 1000, they are 2000, and the wingtip missiles are training missiles and not sidewinders. And your "pods" are the lantern targeting systems

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A. Nonymous July 30, 2010 at 8:13 pm

Conformal fuel tanks.

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STemplar July 30, 2010 at 9:47 pm

I think probably a blend of the two is what we need. I can see the need for some forward deployed stealthy assets. I don't see the need for them in the air sovereignty mission. Stand off munitions would allow for arming a myriad of different platforms and increase the number of options an enemy would have to consider defending against us. I think if the F35s price tag either doesn't stay where it is, or come down, you are going to see a reduced buy. Pretty much guarantees an increased emphasis on stand off. Of course that is already occurring to a certain extent with things like the NCADE idea, and the electric laser pod development in a B1 conformal pod.

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SMSgt Mac July 30, 2010 at 11:21 pm

If one is honest, there are only two factors to consider at the root of the problem in deciding whether or not to acquire survivable penetrating systems or standoff attack systems for use in a non-permissive environment. The first factor is whether or not you have a weapon in hand that can neutralize the aimpoints at a distance. Most standoff weapons do not have the punch for hardened targets. The second factor depends on the number of aimpoints one needs to hit balanced against the feasible attrition rate of the attacking systems. If you have a highly survivable platform to drop JDAMs or other precision weapons, directly instead of using TLAM Tomahawks for example, the cost savings is equal to about 8 F-35s (at LMs pessimistic $ estimate) for every 1000 aimpoints attacked. That is assuming the standoff attack is just as effective (100%) as direct attack, which it has consistently proven NOT to be.

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jhm September 23, 2010 at 8:06 pm

I completely agree wit you. Israel has a long history of keeping flyable fighters in reserve, and constantly upgrade them. However, countries like Iran and Syria probably are going to order the next generation Su, which is stealthy and the f35s marketing oponent. Israel suffered heavily in the 1973 yom kippur war since they underestimated Egypt's tech( SAs)
The Stealthy f35 could be used to destroy long range targets and wipe out enemy intruders, but lacks numbers. the F16s are perfect for this, except that when dogfighting an aircraft 40 years newer then you, the odds start shifting.

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Sam July 31, 2010 at 6:06 am

Let's hope that the Arab nations develop a first strike capability that can wipe out the Israeli air force before it has a chance to once again target Arab civilians and infrastructure.

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Krieg July 31, 2010 at 6:22 pm

You conveniently forgot the part where those first capabilities (rockets, mortars, artillery etc) have time & time again been used to target Israeli during declared 'cease fires' for the past several decades.

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Sam July 31, 2010 at 9:14 pm

Give me an example.

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blight1 July 31, 2010 at 11:57 pm

The withdrawal of Israeli civilians from Gaza was to eliminate a provocation to Gazans (and ultimately to remove civilians from close range rocket attacks). Rockets still continue to this day.

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Sam August 1, 2010 at 6:08 am

You do know that Gaza has been under an illegal and brutal Israeli siege for years, right? You do know that Gaza is still occupied right? Do people have a right to fight for freedom?

yesjb August 1, 2010 at 1:28 pm

Lets hope you grow a brain!
Thanks for the inversion of history!

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@Earlydawn August 2, 2010 at 5:55 pm

You are making declarative statements, so logically, the burden of proof falls on you. Do you have a defense for Israeli espionage against the U.S. besides "Don't be an anti-Semite?" How about the sale of F-16 technology (via the Lavi) to China, causing the Air Force to cut Israel off from the F-35 project that they now so desperately desire?

Your spin-control and blanket accusations of Antisemitism are not doing you any favors. Educate us.

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timmyaki August 1, 2010 at 7:11 pm

Israel blockaded Gaza because it was firing missles into its cities. Their was also a recent shot fired from Gaza a couple weeks ago inspite of the blockade.

Im sure the U.S. Israel, and the EU would get along with the arab nations just fine if they stopped greeting eachother "Death to America Death to Israel"

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dan nurnberger August 2, 2010 at 7:53 am

POOR LITTLE SAMMY IS OBLIVIOUS TO WHATS SHAKIN IN THE MIDDLE EAST,TO EVEN SUGGEST THAT ONE WANTS THE RAGHEADS TO OVERPOWER ISRAEL IS TREASON,YOU SONNY ARE IMBECILIC WITH THAT TRAIN OF THOUGHT(ARE YOU ANTI-AMERICAN?)DONT GET TO HOT UNDER THE COLLAR SONNY,LOL

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Sam August 2, 2010 at 2:50 pm

"TO EVEN SUGGEST THAT ONE WANTS THE RAGHEADS TO OVERPOWER ISRAEL IS TREASON"

Apparently you don't know the difference between America and Israel.

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HAROLD SALISBURY August 8, 2010 at 2:04 pm

SAM: YOU ARE A BIGGET AND AN ANTI SEMITE AND EFIDENTLY HAVE NEVER BEEN TO THE MIDDLE EAST WELL I HAVE AND IT SOUNDS TO ME LIKE YOU ALSO DO NOT LIKE YOUR OWN COUNTRY. WELL I HAVE 2 WORDS FOR YOU. MOVE OUT!

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gt350 July 31, 2010 at 8:30 am

Nato should –and Israeli should have the F-22, The BEST plane that is still made for now! ( A Ferrari is not cheap and nether is winning) and if we cant trust those nations by now —its game over and thats not public politics.

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dan nurnberger August 2, 2010 at 8:01 am

GT350,,AMEN BUT IM STILL VERY VERY SKEPTICAL ABOUT THESE NATO CHUMPS,THEY IN THE END WILL BE OUR ENEMY…BUT YOUR IDEA OF ISRAEL HAVING RAPTORS IS EXCELLENT,ALSO F-35`S AS MANY AS THEY CAN MUSTER IMHO,THE WAY COMMIE OBAMA OUR PRESIDENT ACTS ISRAEL BETTER START DROPPIN DIASY CUTTERS ALL OVER THE MIDDLE EAST,BY THE HUNDREDS,ID BUY EVERY M110A2 I COULD FIND AS WELL IF I WERE ISRAEL(ARTILLARY&AIR ATTACK)ESSENTIAL IN THAT PART OF THE WORLD(SPECIALLY CRAPASTAN

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@Earlydawn August 2, 2010 at 5:58 pm

Why? NATO has divested itself of the responsibility of sustaining anything but a token military force (England excepted), and Israel has raised tremendous questions with regard to technology stewardship. Why should the U.S. sell its top tier fighter aircraft to *either* of these groups?

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Krieg July 31, 2010 at 6:22 pm

Giving the F-22 to Israel means transferring that tech to China. No thank you.

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@Earlydawn July 31, 2010 at 7:21 pm

Amen. F-22 tech should go NOWHERE.

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dan nurnberger August 2, 2010 at 8:04 am

PLEASE ELABORATE KRIEG,,THE CLINTONIANS GAVE UP INFO TO THE ZIPPERHEADS AGREED,,,BUT HOW WOULD ISRAEL,THX FOR YOUR INPUT

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david July 31, 2010 at 6:50 pm

I agree with your Krieg. Not only that but Israel doesn't need the F-22 anyways even if they could afford them and not give the tech away to our enemies. If Israel was smart they would buy the EF2000 with the active array and long range meteor missile.A much better air defense aircraft than the F-15Cs they currently have. Oh yea, they can't because Europe will not give them to Israel for free like the US does. Oh well. Back to upgrading your F-15s and F-16s.

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dan nurnberger August 2, 2010 at 8:30 am

DAVID, BACKING ISRAEL 100% IS ESSENTIAL….WHO ELSE DO YOU SUGGEST TO DO OUR BIDDING IN THAT POS PART OF THE WORLD ? EGYPT OR JORDAN-LMAO DUDE, IF IT WERE NOT FOR THE JEWS WE MAY BE SPEAKING CHINESE OR ARABIC ONE DAY, LETS NOT LOSE FOCUS.ISRAEL IS THE COUNTRY FOR THE JOB,FEEL FREE TO DEBATE OTHERWISE

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blight1 July 31, 2010 at 11:59 pm

The only problem that remains in this drone versus manned aircraft argument is that one way or another guided missiles are cheaper than either. Perhaps this means the only way through is by land, since you can only lay so many IEDs in such-and-such timeframe.

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yesjb August 1, 2010 at 8:37 am

Here we go again…all the usual suspects…Jew haters and Jew baiters galore!
Israel steals this Israel steals that…blah blah blah
You pathetic little no-nothings wouldn’t know the truth if it jumped up and bit you on the ass!
Evey discussion degenerates into the same tiresome ******** rants against Israel without an f’n clue about what’s really going on.
Just reflects what going on in your government and even military leaders.
You’ll soon have your hands full right in the good ol’ USA when enough Hezb’ballah get smuggled in from Mexico and start blowing up your cities. Then the likes of Sam (or is it Sami?) can always blame the Jews!

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mike November 24, 2012 at 5:40 am

they are already there and have been for years as the borders so porous.
mikenz

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Shamir August 1, 2010 at 6:55 pm

Whatever Israel wants the world must give them. Not sure why though….

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@mika2k1 August 2, 2010 at 1:31 am

I guess some see what they want to see, Samir. Or is it Ahmed?

We want the Jihadi imperialists and their racist retrograde islamo-nazi ideology dead. Been waiting, and waiting, and waiting,..
In the mean time, the anglo-american imperialist swines have been funding and defending the islamo-nazis to the tune of trillions.

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Vitor August 2, 2010 at 12:48 am

I love how americans babble about "we must not let our techs leak to the chinese!", and have no problem to owe a lot of money to the same chinese, and that is way more destructive than any bomb or plane.

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dan nurnberger August 2, 2010 at 8:13 am

HEY VITOR,,IM AN AMERICAN AND ID DEBATE YOU IN A NY MINUTE,ACTUALLY ITS THE SNIVVELING 3RD WORLD COUNTRIES THAT WE HELP THAT ARE THE PROBLEM(INCLUDING A FEW OTHER POS COUNTRIES AS WELL)NOT SURE IF YOU ARE PRO OR ANTI-AMERICAN BUT YOU SURE SOUND LKE YOU ARE ANTI

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William C. August 2, 2010 at 12:50 pm

Except money is merely printed paper. That technology is countless man-hours of work, effort, and investment.

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Blight August 2, 2010 at 9:09 am

dollar bills can’t drop bombs. also in wartime I suspect the us would default on Chinese debts to damage their economy. Refusing to pay is almost as bad as being in debt.

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sid August 2, 2010 at 1:20 am

Vitor – so the US shouldn't allow China to buy US bonds? Ever heard of a free market economy?

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Alberto August 2, 2010 at 4:37 am

Oh an American spoutting about free markets… lol…

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dan nurnberger August 2, 2010 at 8:16 am

SID,,,ID BE WILLING TO BET VITOR IS ON THE GOVERNMENT DOLE(A WELFARE RECIPIENT WITH A COMPUTER AND ACCESS TO THE LIBRARY,LOL)HE SOUNDS SO ANTI-AMERICAN ITS NOT EVEN FUNNY)YOU KNOW WELFARE PEOPLE DONT KNOW OR CARE ABOUT ECONOMICS.

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Paragon2000 August 2, 2010 at 11:28 am

By invoking a free market economy presumably you mean the US should allow China to buy the F22 too?
Forgive the straw man argument, I think that Vitor is pointing out that the sale of debt can be just as strategically significant as the sale of arms.

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Vitor August 2, 2010 at 4:01 am

sid – LOL @ a State stimulating a whole country to get in debt because the FED can print magical dollars being, imposing an artificially low interest rate and bailing out any company with a big enogh lobby being a free market economy.

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dan nurnberger August 2, 2010 at 7:49 am

IMHO ISRAEL SHOULD BEEF UP AND DESTROY ALL RAGHEAD,COMMIE NATIONS…SOMEBODY HAS TO DO IT,,LORD KNOWS OBAMA AND HIS SISSIES AINT

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@Earlydawn August 2, 2010 at 6:18 pm

What a well-reasoned and strategically valid assessment. Don't you have a KKK rally to be at, or something?

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dan nurnberger August 2, 2010 at 8:20 am

ANYBODY WHO VOTED FOR THE BAFOON(AL-QAEDA OPERATIVE)BARAK OBAMA SHOULD BE DEPORTED FOR TREASON, THATS RIGHT BARRY I SAID IT,BLUE GUM CHUMP,I AND MANY OTHERS KNOW YOU ARE A COMMIE,WHY DO YOU SPEAK DAILY WITH THE COMMIE ILK,,,BET CHAVEZ HAS YOUR CELL# ON SPEED DIAL..LIBS ARE THE DOWN FASLL OF THIS NATION AS IS THE MEDIA(MARK MY WORDS ALL YOU EINSTENS

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Vstress August 2, 2010 at 8:21 am

Surely it's not as simple as saying we can replace use the aircraft for X more years. These airframes that the IDF have are already quite old and have a high numbers of years on them!

The reason such an argument that they don't need to buy new equipment is because of the fact that last time they bought it, it was so far advanced in technology. Therefore if you don't buy advanced technology, there will be a time in the near future where you will be pushed up against the wall due to a new development in missile technology on the enemy side.

If they buy the F-35 it will last as long as the F-16 has.

To me personally it's a good investment.

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dan nurnberger August 2, 2010 at 8:24 am

NOW IF I COULD TYPE AS WELL AS I THINK ID START A BLOG,LOL…HEY SHAR AND VITOR DONT GET YOUR PANTIES IN A BIND(BET YOU GUYS WANNA BUY ME A BEER NOW LOL) SORRY I DONT DRINK WITH COMMIES,ONLY GRADE A AMERICANS

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Mr B August 2, 2010 at 2:00 pm

One thing that the F-35, with the VTOL option, could provide is it would allow Israel to operate a small aircraft carrier. This would put some aircraft out of rocket range and may also be needed for a strike on Iran, to avoid any overflight issues.

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Mystick August 2, 2010 at 2:14 pm

That's a lot of fuel… I see five externals on there. IAF sure doesn't need to carry that much around for a precision strike loadout…. with that much fuel, that F-16 could probably fly to Britain with some to spare. Seems like that's one of them 'nuclear plant in Iran'-busting planes.

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Matt Musson August 2, 2010 at 11:06 am

We beat the Greman Air Force in WWII even though they had better technology.

We had good enough technology that overwhelmed them.

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@Earlydawn August 2, 2010 at 5:51 pm

Yeah. The problem is that the U.S. is becoming Germany. There is not a chance in hell that we are going to actually purchase 2,000+ F-35s. Plentiful drones lead by a core air force of top-tier manned fighter aircraft are the future.

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Andrew August 2, 2010 at 7:46 pm

Right on. Like to see aerial "arsenal ships" and drones (seagoing ones as well) with no crews or minimal crews supporting manned fighting units with massed fires, mixes of unguided, semi guided and precision.

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@Earlydawn August 2, 2010 at 5:49 pm

Aircraft carriers are not something that you just work up in two years like a fighter wing. They are prohibitively expensive, take several years to build, and require a substantial supporting industry of shipbuilding and R&D..

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blight August 2, 2010 at 6:03 pm

The US could sell Israel a carrier or an amphibious vessel. Suffice to say, a lot of people will get mad.

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@Earlydawn August 2, 2010 at 6:15 pm

The logistical and support requirements for a carrier or amphibious assault ship are not going to be worth the benefits, I guarantee you. On top of that, Israel would be in much the same situation as the U.S. if they put such a ship in the Persian Gulf – Iran has a ton of hardened anti-shipping missiles long the coast and the Strait. They'd never let a loaded Israeli ship in.

This also ignores the fact that Israel has been cut out of the F-35 project.

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Jay August 2, 2010 at 7:47 pm

Israel invented and first used the modern UAV, and our designs are based on their tech.
However, while the sophistication of UAVs is increasing, they are still not nearly as capable as manned fighters and nowhere near as effective in air to air. The IDF air force knows that they have to establish air supremacy ASAP as they did in 67 and 73 – and you do that by destroying theother guy's fighters.

Until we get a drone up which is fast, maneuverable, and spits AMRAAMs we need expensive fighters to shape the battlespace and ensure air superiority.

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Cannon Fodder August 6, 2010 at 11:03 am

Islam is like the Borg from Star Trek. They will not stop "assimulating" until first Israel is gone, then the US and other European countries. Their goal is to convert the world to Islam by force or choice. Wake up people.

It is sad too that many have believed the Borg trash spoken against Israel, when Israel is just trying to survive. Israel is one of the few countries that is willing to stand up against the Borg, even though they are outnumbered and surrounded.

Israel needs to strike Iran before they get a nuke, because they will use it. Obamma doesn't really care if Iran gets a nuke or not, so he is dragging his feet. Israel can not wait.

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Robert A. Fritts September 8, 2010 at 10:40 pm

Yours is the best illustration I seen on this board of Islam. Borg-No ****! when at Central Command we would debate where the first strike was to be in a war to conquer Islam. After months of computer modeling and Brainstorming sessions, we came up with a first strike by the full force of the USA would be needed in Washington DC when congress is in session.

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HAROLD SALISBURY August 8, 2010 at 2:27 pm

ONCE AGIAN SAM OLD BOY I HAVE BEEN TO ISREAL AND THEY ARE GOOD PEOPLE AND THE UN CHARTER GAVE ATONAMY TO BOTH ISREAL AND THE PALISTINIANS BUT THE ARABS REJECTED IT AND A DAY LATER THE ARAB COUNTRIES INVADED ISREAL NOW TELL ME WHO WANTS PEACE THE ISREALIS OR THE ARABS

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HAROLD SALISBURY August 8, 2010 at 2:34 pm

AND AS FOR AUSTRALIA BEING WITH US IN EVERY CONFLICT SINCE WW1 WELL YES BUT ISREAL HAS BEEN IN A NEVER ENDING WAR SINCE 1948. AND NO COUNTRY AS OF TODAY WOULD SEND TROOPS TO FIGHT ALONG SIDE WITH ISREAL IN ANY OF ITS WARS OR CONFLICTS. TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!

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Brad November 19, 2010 at 11:29 am

I have not seen one post addressing F-15 and F-16 airframe costs.

It seems to me that the IAF will opt for the F-35 not just because of enhanced airspace penetration capability but the simple fact that F-15 and F-16 airframes are getting quite old. In the end it won't matter whether the IAF's current airfleet of highly advanced F-15s and F-16s are upgraded with new capabilities or not. The airframes will be to costly to maintain. It's that simple. Unlike steel, aluminum fissures and cracks under repeated stress and loads. X-Rays and routine frame maintenance therefore become very expensive and consume precious man-hour resources. New airframes must purchased because it is more cost effective to do so. Israel will purchase F-35s. Count on it!

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blight1 July 31, 2010 at 11:58 pm

Don't forget the Australians don't send spies into American facilities? (though this might just be a matter of "they haven't been exposed yet"). Israel, on the other hand…

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dan nurnberger August 2, 2010 at 8:08 am

SHAR,ISRAEL IS A STRATEGIC FOOTHOLD FOR AMERICA,,IF WE WOULD UTILIZE IT,,,PAST PRESIDENTS HAVE NOT ESPECIALLY THIS BAFOON WE HAVE NOW(ID SAY OBAMA IS A AL-QAEDA OPERATIVE(OR AT LEAST A BILDERBERG FLUNKY) IMHO…SHAR HAVE YOU EVER TRAINED WITH OR FOUGHT AGAINST ISRAELI TROOPS?

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Doug July 31, 2010 at 8:17 pm

Placed in their shoes, wouldn't you do the same?

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yesjb August 1, 2010 at 1:26 pm

Oh you mean like the Chinese!
Smarten up…you and your Cadre of Jew-baiting/hating friends!

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yesjb August 1, 2010 at 1:50 pm

Have you been to Gaza recently?
"Bruta"l my ass!
The only brutality is being inflicted on the Gazans by Hamas and fools like you with their anti-Israeli bias believe all the BS regardless of the truth.
There's no hunger, no starvation, the stores are stocked to the rafters with mostly Israeli goods, there are a lot of wealthy people, building very expensive homes. There are fancy restaurants, clubs swimming pools etc etc etc.
Yet in your mind which is delusional, the Gazans are suffering.
I'll tell you whose suffering…those in Darfur and Sudan, those under the thumb of the Taliban, ordinary Iranian citizens.
But, hey you wouldn't know that, obsessed as your are with your Jew hating.
"Fight for freedom"…you mean fight to destroy Israel and kill Jews everywhere!
I think it would be a terrific idea for Israel to stop any restrictions about Gaza. Close the border, stop any free transfer of food, electricity etc., stop any blockade and we will see if Gaza can function as an independent country.
And if Iran wants to have a colony and threaten Israel, well, hey, then, they get treated just like any belligerent enemy.
How does that sound, Sami?
Free Gaza…from Hamas!!

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Sam August 1, 2010 at 3:20 pm

Yesjb,
Apparently you have been to Gaza recently. What did you see?

Since I am "obsessed with Jew hating" as you say, can we say that you are obsessed with Muslim hating?

How is fighting for freedom and destroying Israel one and the same thing in your mind?

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blight August 1, 2010 at 12:14 pm

Tell it to the UN, who run humanitarian operations in Gaza. Yeah sure, Gaza is a veritable paradise…

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blight August 1, 2010 at 12:13 pm

Them too, but that’s off topic.

Clearly you must be a “Chinese-baiting/hating” person?

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Yes Sir Soldier August 1, 2010 at 5:12 pm

Any mention of Israeli spying on the US is considered evidence of "Jew-hating" by yesjb…the Israel apologists have only a few tools in their kit and charges of antisemitism are the most easily deployed.

How do you defend Israeli spying on its best ally, yesjb? Can you possibly answer without defaulting to silly charges of hatred and bias?

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Sam August 1, 2010 at 5:45 pm

Israel supporters only believe what Israel tells them to believe. It's pathetic.

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Alberto August 2, 2010 at 9:50 pm

the Suez Conflict

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Robert A. Fritts September 9, 2010 at 2:26 am

Sam i've ived in Gaza, Israel, and the West Bank. also Eygpt, Jordan and KSA. One thing that does not get reported is that Gazans are illegally entering Israel. Not to kill Jews or Bomb IDF facilities. No these tortured folks are going into Israel to live. The horrible jews have a land where hard work pays off and many Gazans have more hope in Israel than at home with Hamas or with their Arab "brothers".

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Robert A. Fritts September 9, 2010 at 2:35 am

Yes and we(USA) do. OOHHH NNOO Israel spied on us. Everyone does it, do not fool yourself, We spy on everyone, we feed dis-information to our good friends and we really do not care who knws it. Business as usual, The US has convicted folks from every Arab nation for spying on us also, but you only hear about Israel. Under Obama now we know that Muslims cannot do anything bad, so prosecution of Muslims has been stopped.

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