Here some interesting news from the straights of Taiwan last month that sounds straight out of the Cold War. Apparently, Taiwanese F-16s scrambled to intercept PLAAF Su-27 Flankers that crossed the median line of the Taiwan strait while chasing down an American U-2 Dragon Lady spyplane. The Flanker returned to its base after the Taiwanese jets were scrambled
The U-2 was reportedly flying between Osan Air Base in South Korea to Kadena Air Base in Okinawa, Japan when it threaded between the Peoples Republic of China and the Republic of China (Taiwan, but you should know this already). Wait a second, Korea to Japan via the Taiwan straits? The strait sits almost 300 miles to the southeast of Okinawa. Ok, this sounds like a blatant spy mission.
With all the talk about China’s buildup of area denial weapons and the aftermath of the 2001 EP-3 incident you’d think we’d lean toward using satellites and drones like the U-2’s unmanned sibling the RQ-4 Global Hawk or the stealthy RQ-170 Sentinel (rumored to be flying out of Osan).
This may be a reminder of just how limited our unmanned airborne intel collecting resources are despite all the talk of sensor miniaturization and the ability of drones (or even a fifth gen fighter) to perform the intel duties of much larger cold war-vintage intel birds. I mean, the U-2 was supposed to have been replaced by the Global Hawk a while ago. But, the Dragon Lady can still carry more spy gear than the Global Hawk and there are more U-2 available for spy missions than there are RQ-4s.
Via Alert 5.
Update — Apparently this was the first time in a decade that PRC fighters have crossed into Taiwanese airspace. Meanwhile, the Adm. Mike Mullen says that the U.S. won’t stop these recce flights off the coast of mainland China.
From the Telegraph (UK):
However, Admiral Mike Mullen, the chairman of the US joint chiefs of staff, told reporters in Washington that the US would “not be deterred from flying in international airspace”. He said: “The Chinese would see us move out of there. We’re not going to do that, from my perspective. These reconnaissance flights are important”.
{ 83 comments… read them below or add one }
Straights? Fanker?
Beat me to it!
The U2 pilot hopefully got danger pay. You know you are going to get about 20 flybys by afterburning fighters on that mission.
Plus the fact that the U2 is a beast to handle.
I hope the intel was worth it.
I am sure it was, they got at least one piece they were looking for! The U2 DL was kept because it can get more detailed intel than any other platform
Technically, the Chinese Su-27s didn't cross into Taiwanese airspace, but they did cross the middle dividing line of the Strait, which is informally considered to be the boundary of the Strait between which aircraft of each side will not pass into the other side (i.e., Taiwanese fighters will not cross into the Chinese half and vice versa.)
Agree, I have not read anything that confirms the airspace violation accusation.
By his definition of airspace violation, the U-2 would have violated PRC airspace.
Wish we still had the SR-71 for this sort of thing.
Can't the jsf replace that? :) Why would we keep a paid for, advanced technology asset that's light years ahead of anything foreign known, when we can have so much fun talking about what is coming soon? Oh yeah, the world is a shiny happy place now, all the bad people turned good…The writing on the wall is looking like the aurora really was just a never built dream.
Rolls eyes…prays for a candidate to vote for that actually understands the world.
At least they are trying to extend the a10.
Let's not hold our breath; Never will be a candidate that understands the needs of 'people' nor fights for righteousness' sake nor serves justice to the poor and afflicted who suffer with the indignity of being horribly wronged. Instead, those same 'candidates' serve people who would love to make you all their slaves. That's why we need the Lord Jesus who shed his blood for sinners like us.
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Ephesians 2:8-9
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Timothy 3:16
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36
Hmm, what would jesus fly?
A magic carpet…
Well I guess it would not be the Harrier since only the Marines fly the Harrier and sorry to say it but not everyone can be a Marine.
Understands? Or do you actually mean "cares about Americans"?
I mean understands the world. The best choice isn't always "best for the US" FYI, Canada and everything south of the US are also Americans…at least their continent is. "Cares about Americans", or cares about me, as I read it, is exactly what is wrong with the US right now. Would you seriously make the argument, that the world has become more civilized and peaceful since the perceived projection power of both the US and Russia have diminished? There are too many despots, and idiots in the world that have no reason to work with others, unless they realize you could just eliminate them, but have chosen to try and work things out peacefully.
Oh a 47 year old aircraft that's operational envelope is well within that of the S-300 missile system?
There is a reason they retired the thing, they didn't want to see it shot down or North Korea or Iran after all those fancy Soviet weapons got exported after the collapse of the USSR.
The capability of the SR-71 vs the S-300 had nothing to do with its retirement. While it would be possible to shoot down a Blackbird with the S-300, it would be very, very difficult in an operational setting. The SR-71 was retired by funding and turf squabbles. It would still be a very useful platform today; many informed professionals disagree with your assessment and believe its retirement was a mistake. Age is not the sole determining factor for a platform's utility, e.g. B-52, A-10, etc. Oh, and even today, it would be amusing to watch an SU-27 (or any other fighter) try to intercept an SR-71…
Please please please….give my favorite old bird ( and the one that I began my career on) a well deserved rest. The intel product that it was capable of was, in the end, not worth the cost of operating the bird. No one wanted to pay for it !
So let's get technical for a moment. See that large data link fellow on the back of the U-2 ? That was designed during the 60's ! Would you put one of those on the SR ? No. And the ability to not be able to report the product back in real time was one if it's more obvious shortcomings with no real solution. The romantic view of the SR just doesn't pan out in today's world despite Oh…that Su-27 intercept ? Do you mean intercept and kill ? No problem.
Yes, sometimes the old ariframe solutions are viable. This just isn't one of them.
Romance has nothing to do with cost, capability and requirements. When the SR-71 was reactivated in the late 90s near real time data link was provided with more planned… The cost/benefit debate is a reasonable one. But the SR-71 provided and provides a unique capability–technology increasingly offers opportunities to provide useful upgrades.
Then why is the U2 still flying since the Russians actually shot down one of those?
Truth is no could shoot down the Black Bird. Too damn high and fast along with early stealth. It flew at what mach 3+ near the edge of space. A faster missile would run out of fuel before it reached the Sr-71.
David. As if we have forgotten the several shoot downs of the U-2 ( China, Cuba, Russia….add 'em up !)
The comparison you offer is now a part of history….the tortise won the race. The hare was the right critter for a while, but never obsoleted the far cheaper and far more capable U-2 despite it's numereous shoot downs.
Do your home work next time. And no….the SR's operating altitude was no where close to "near the edge of space". Talk to the pilots…it was usually south of 80,000ft.
For reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_lin…
(It's supposed to say "Kármán line")
Accepted international definition is ~62 miles. 80 kfeet is…~15 miles? Higher than Everest by lots, but not quite the beginning of the final frontier.
The SA-5 (S-200) missile came out in 1965, it could reach higher altitudes than the SR-71.
The Russians backfitted their MiG-31s with the older AA-9 missiles because of their higher speed and range. Interesting to note that apparently in 1986 6 MiG-31s did a coordinated intercept of a SR-71 and would have subjected it to a all aspect AAM attack had they fired: http://www.spyflight.co.uk/sr71.htm
The Sweeds also intercepted a few as well. The USAF did a test and successfully scored a simulated kill on one with an F-15.
The SR-71 could be caught.
I read somewhere that the old Soviet targeting computers couldn't do the math fast enough to do an intercept- even though their SAM's could reach the SR-71.
Basically the Mig-31 made the SR-71 a liability.
Moore's law caught up with it.
Remember it was God-awful expensive and in the '90 all we would have taken picture of was Soviet tanks being cut into razor blades and ships rusting at port.
Could be a SIGINT/ELINT run. Don't recall if the SR's were configured for that mission…
Of course if was. It carried many different ISR packages. The problem was that it brought the product back on that old brown magnetic tape. Modern intel MUST be delivered in real time. BB could never do that.
Bah, an oversight on my part, though I did find this gem…
"In the later years of its operational life, a data-link system was added that would allow ASARS-1 and ELINT data from about 2,000 nmi (3,700 km) of track coverage to be downlinked if the SR-71 was within "contact" with a mutually equipped ground station."
I /think/ the U-2 carried a more varied payload as well, which would make it more flexible in addition to being cost-effective. More's the pity.
Very good Blight. My best recollection is that the data link was planned, but never actually funded. But even if it had been, 2nd best technology is still second best technology.
Why we need real time for strategic intel? Dont pretend to be smart when you're not, really.
Yeah, why make plans based on what's happening now when you can do it on what was happening 6 to 24 hours ago?
I really am not smart on this subject, but I would guess that not all intel missions are strategic, and the tactical variety probably benefit from timeliness.
I'm more interested in what the U2 was there to look at.
blight look the U-2 photo…WTF is all that stuff added on?
The US WILL continue to 'patrol' that area I'm sure….
History teaches us the any pilot starpping him/herself into a U2 does so at their own risk…..
"WTF is all that stuff added on? "
The pod on the upper part of the fuselage is the SPAN datalink, plus two ELINT pods (Senior Glass/Spear/Ruby?)
You can only learn so much from flying offshore of Taiwan and trying to stare into Taiwan with optics. Overflights are /out/ of the question.
That thing on the top is used for linking to stuff in space! Kinda of a direct link to the big HQ in Washington DC!!!
Plus the picture is not a mission aircraft… no cool stuff hanging off the bottom of the aircraft of the funny wing pylons
Where the new is?. I am remember more funny one. When China return a EP-3 inside Conexs arranged in nuts, bolts, etc. During Cold War was on daily basis that stuff. We spy them they chase us. Every contested boundary have shuch visits and China it is a concern to other one isn´t chinese.
Yep!
I'm with ironV we need a SR-71 for mission like this the SR-71 like the F-14 tomcat's fate was retired due to Dick Cheney's budget cuts in the early 1990s. The SR-71 had some Stealth features which primitive Chinese radar wont pick up. Maybe instead of a new bomber a new recon plane would be needed.
Except that Chinese radar ain't so primitive anymore. Remember those SA-20s they got a few years back? Here's a hint – they came with radars.
I was in the SR-71 program when it came to a end. It was the Clinton administration that axed the program not Cheney.
From that dreadfully unreliable source of information:
"The USAF refused to spend the money. While the SR-71 survived attempts to be retired in 1988, partly due to the unmatched ability to provide high quality coverage of the Kola Peninsula for the US Navy, the decision to retire the SR-71 from active duty came in 1989, with the SR-71 flying its last missions in October that year.
Funds were redirected to the financially troubled B-1 Lancer and B-2 Spirit programs. Four months after the plane's retirement, General Norman Schwarzkopf, Jr., was told that the expedited reconnaissance which the SR-71 could have provided was unavailable during Operation Desert Storm. However, it was noted by SR-71 supporters that the SR-71B trainer was just coming out of overhaul and that one SR-71 could have been made available in a few weeks, and a second one within two months. Since the aircraft was recently retired, the support infrastructure was in place and qualified crews available. The decision was made by Washington not to bring the aircraft back.
Reactivation
Due to increasing unease about political conditions in the Middle East and North Korea, the U.S. Congress re-examined the SR-71 beginning in 1993.
[...]
Rear Admiral Thomas F. Hall addressed the question of why the SR-71 was retired, saying it was under "the belief that, given the time delay associated with mounting a mission, conducting a reconnaissance, retrieving the data, processing it, and getting it out to a field commander, that you had a problem in timeliness that was not going to meet the tactical requirements on the modern battlefield. And the determination was that if one could take advantage of technology and develop a system that could get that data back real time… that would be able to meet the unique requirements of the tactical commander." Hall stated that "the Advanced Airborne Reconnaissance System, which was going to be an unmanned UAV" would meet the requirements but was not affordable at the time. He said that they were "looking at alternative means of doing [the job of the SR-71]."
[...]
It was agreed to add $100 million to the budget to return three SR-71s to service, but it was emphasized that this "would not prejudice support for long-endurance UAVs [such as the Global Hawk]." The funding was later cut to $72.5 million.The Skunk Works was able to return the aircraft to service under budget, coming in at $72 million.
Colonel Jay Murphy (USAF Retired) was made the Program Manager for Lockheed's reactivation plans. Retired Air Force Colonels Don Emmons and Barry MacKean were put under government contract to remake the plane's logistic and support structure. Still-active Air Force pilots and Reconnaissance Systems Officers (RSOs) who had worked with the aircraft were asked to volunteer to fly the reactivated planes. The aircraft was under the command and control of the 9th Reconnaissance Wing at Beale Air Force Base and flew out of a renovated hangar at Edwards Air Force Base. Modifications were made to provide a data-link with "near real-time" transmission of the Advanced Synthetic Aperture Radar's imagery to sites on the ground.
Second retirement
The reactivation met much resistance: the Air Force had not budgeted for the aircraft, and UAV developers worried that their programs would suffer if money was shifted to support the SR-71s. Also, with the allocation requiring yearly reaffirmation by Congress, long-term planning for the SR-71 was difficult. In 1996, the Air Force claimed that specific funding had not been authorized, and moved to ground the program. Congress reauthorized the funds, but, in October 1997, President Bill Clinton used the line-item veto to cancel the $39 million allocated for the SR-71. In June 1998, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the line-item veto was unconstitutional. All this left the SR-71's status uncertain until September 1998, when the Air Force called for the funds to be redistributed. The plane was permanently retired in 1998. The Air Force quickly disposed of their SR-71s, leaving NASA with the two last flyable Blackbirds until 1999. All other Blackbirds have been moved to museums except for the two SR-71s and a few D-21 drones retained by the NASA Dryden Flight Research Center."
Clearly the SR-71 had no friends. Terminated in '89, resurrected under early Clinton, clearly not loved by the AF, axed by line item veto, saved when line item veto was thrown out, and then thrown under the bus by the Air Force.
What can I say? Carthage must be destroyed.
The world passed the F-14 by. Remember it was designed and purchased for a single purpose…the Phoenix missile which was fired and used once…and failed !
Once we had Glasnost with the Russians , the F-14 was only good for plinking Iraqi and Libyan planes.
The F-18's do that mission so much better, and they are affordable. Like the SR, the Tomcat was a maintenance nightmare.
The F-14 did not "fail" per se. It had been mounted incorrectly according to reports. The very fact that the Navy never launched an AIM-54 in anger (except that "Southern Watch" incident) attests to the great respect and fear our adversaries had for it. BTW, Iran used the AIM-54 successfully many times against Iraq. It has even shot down 2 planes with 1 missile (due to it's HUGE warhead). As their A-54 stockpile was limited, they also used the F-14 and it's AWG-9 for AEW. As you know, there are just so many man-hours in a day. But we still fear Iranian Tomcats for good reason. IMO.
never crewed a tomcat but did work a little on them being in the air force. and i have to admitt seeing those birds stripped and cut up was really disappointing
Lucky you. I saw a couple of them flying together at Jones beach near the Grumman factory back in the day. It is disappointing to see them cut up and scrapped. IMO the titanium work on them is epic.
Really, you worked a little on a Navy plane while in the Air Force?
F-18s don't have the legs and need to be refueled often.
And the F-14 went without tanker support ? Be reasonable
This is hardly reason enough not to replace a one weapons system focused airframe with several times the operational availability of the F-18. Few in the Navy cried when the Tomcat left the fleet.
Most guys that I know loved flying it as much as they did transitioning to the F-18E/F.
I believe tom cat only held 12,000 lbs internal. And 2 TF-30 or The DFE still needed lots of Go Juice
Taiwan wants to BUY upgraded f-16's yet we aren't selling it to them.
Too bad China holds over 1 trillion of our debt FFS.
I would really like to f up the commies right now.
Straights?
I suppose your inability to spell words from your native language is also the fault of the Chinese? Take some time out from beating your war drum to read a book, neocon.
justaysing? I suppose you meant 'justsaying' right?
Any idea what altitude this chase took place at? Su27 listed as 62,000 ft max, within missile range. SR-71's speed would made it safer
who says our unmanned airborne intel collecting resources are limited? this U2 is just the only thing they caught!
Coordination, Integration is the key. How about using a space spy satellite w/ hubble telliscope attach to it w/ sophisticated radar w/ wide area coverage to monitor the area?
Thank God we retired the SR-71 and kept this piece of crap. After all, it's cheaper. Sounds like they'll need to give Lockheed another contract to upgrade the U-2 after this little embarrassment. After all, that's what our military is really about, making sure the contractors make as much money as possible.
what happens if we keep this up and some trigger happy jet jock fro China does the same thing as the jet jock did with the P-3 then do we got to WW-III just for the fun of it. someone is not thinking stright here in my book.
Even if we had the force, no one believes we have the guts to use it. China will take Taiwan without firing a shot before the end of this decade.
U2 flies slow and gets better snapshots than teh SR-71 at 80,000 feet.
I doubt the SU-27's got very close to the U2 at altitude, but the missiles
could have reached the bird at that height. Maybe the U2's have more advanced countermeasures than they did in teh 1960's?
I also miss the habu or SR-71 +3 meaning….. … .. . but the newest one is on drawing boards and we will wait the out comst of this baby..
What's with the 'the' in front of Adm. Mike Mullen?
What do any of these posts have to do with real issues here? Whether or not the US gathered any intel isn't the issue. The US was keeping an avenue open, i.e. use it or lose it. And as far as building a new aircraft goes the US hasn't even been able to keep the most sensitive nuclear information out of the Peoples Republic of China's (PRC) hands The PRC has been able to access every computer system that contains every blue print and the technicial data the US has anyway. It's only a matter of time until the US can no longer threaten the PRC and get away with it. This is what the mission was about: Can the US still get away with flying an aircraft near the PRC. When the US losses an aircraft the balance will tip a little farther towards the PRC. Perhaps this was the intent of the spy mission, to determine who currently holds the upper hand.
Just our government wasting more money.
We already know the Chinese are preparing themselves militarily to kick our butts. They have done so finanacially as I predicted in the 1980s and will do so militarily within twenty years. Their government, right or wrong, is patient which is something seriously lacking in America at large.
Make that twenty to fifty years. Patience. The Chinese will wait until the time is right to destroy us.
bla, bla, bla, who knows why the U-2 was up there for sure. AC strayed, PRC response test, intel collection, sunday drive, etc. I can't wait for Football to start so all these armchair quarterback have something else to focus on. Even if your in intel, unless you have access you wouldn't know for sure if then. The U-2 has unique capabilities still unduplicated. And any aircraft can be shot down…. last i knew even the SR-71 had to land or at least slow for fuel….. and now you have my bla, bla….. moving on.
What’s interesting to me: the platform is still good after all these years…In 1962 thru 1964 we were flying the U2 over the PRC to keep an eye on their nuclear weapons program as per Kennedy’s request. We were working out of Okinawa and some other places then, it’s like nothing ever changes… The platform was upgraded every few months (defensive avionics, engines). Just think how much better it is after 48 years…
Just think of how much money Lockheed has made off that crappy, slow, POS since 1962! It boggles the mind.
When I come to Military.com, I always think that the comments here will be those of Current Military Active Duty or Retired Military OR…just Plain Veterans.
I can't believe some of the F***ing shit I read on this Site! I am PRO-AMERICAN. I AM PRO-MILITARY. You nor I ARE NO LONGER IN-SERVICE. THAT SAID, Either SUPPORT YOUR MILITARY or go take your Suppository.
Your already fighting the Enemy: Obama and all his Henchmen. WTF, Gentlemen???
Been around this block a long time. I have always FELT….Let US KILL'EM ALL and then let GOD SORT'em OUT rather than us being the FIRST ones to take heat!
I would say, SEMPER FI….but I was Air Force and then Army and then A.F. Retired!
You get the message…I hope…Bitch!
In other news of the slow, Lockheed managed to crash a blimp into Pennsylvania yesterday. The blimp is what they plan on using to replace the U-2. In other news, small tremors were reported to be radiating from the Kelly Johnson grave site. http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld…
Consider this, you worry about what you need to take care of and let those of us active duty aircraft maintenance, intel, comm, CE, security forces, and all other AFSC enlisted and officers take care of this. Sit back, relax and enjoy your FREEDOM.
That is true Bob and corporate America will continue to fund their military. We can thank Target, wal-mart and Bill Clinton for putting America in this situation. We gave the gooks too much and soon will pay the price.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Free_…
Apparently Bush "ceremonially signed it", so endorsement predates the Clinton administration…too bad, just…too bad.
Great airplane. former member 4028th SRWS Davis Monthan AFB, AZ
The aircraft now referred to as the U2, is only superficially similar to the 1960's era aircraft. It is vastly more capable than the original aircraft. It carries sensors that provide very adequate capability for the mission it is assigned, however no single sensor package is capable of collecting all the data we require to evaluate the emerging threat. The SR-71 would still be flying if we couldn't collect the data using other means. The relative cost effectiveness of the U2 combined with its flexibility and paid up asset status makes it a viable platform for many years in the future. It is far less costly to design a sensor module for the U2 than to design a new platform of any kind. As with most things that fly, all capabilities are some sort of a compromise. Bottom line, the U2 still works.
Slow, high flying, and highly visible — not a recipe for success today or ever. The U-2 has only been a success for Lockheed who has made megadollars off the everlasting upgrades. The SR-71 didn't need upgrades which sealed its fate. No procurement bureacracy means a limited life regardless of success in today's DoD where onl 15% fight wars and the other 85% tell them how it should be done.
check online aabags.com online shopping
Sorry… A stealthy magic carpet….
It's a little sacrilegious to suggest that a hypothetical man who could raise people from the dead, heal lepers, heal severed body ears, make water from wine, drive out demons, resist temptation by the prince of darkness, survive for days in the desert, walk on water is somehow lesser than a United States Marine.
In combatives, he probably wouldn't put up much a fight. Then again, he always said he had "twelve legions of angels" at his beck and call, but it was never in his nature to use them.
Thank God for that!!!
Look at the whole system, not just a component. Having real time data is useless if there's no real time processing and real time use.
Your recollection is faulty. It was funded and deployed with more planned.
Sorry. Just checked with Det 2, and it wasn't.
Your claim that the MiG-31 made the SR-71 a "liability" is simply untrue. Again. It's theoretically possible the SR-71 could be "caught" by various systems and strategies. However, it's highly unlikely in an operational environment, even today. I am surprised at the folks who have opinions about the Blackbird but little familiarity with its capability, system upgrades and potential for more…
Real time planning used to be difficult to coordinate, even with sat datalinks because the info goes to someone at NRO or DIA for image analysis before percolating to the front line. It's stupid really; because while the image analysis may be superior the information is out of date.
During OIF there were ambushes based on out-of-date or flawed intel. It makes one wonder if datastreams need to be copied in parallel, with some passed directly to front line units (though realistically it will go to Florida or Qatar and gradually ping its way to the front) with the other copy going somewhere for detailed analysis.