Well, our worries about the Pakistanis giving China access to the wreckage of the stealth helicopter used in the raid to kill Osama bin Laden may have come to fruition.
The Financial Times is reporting that Pakistan allowed Chinese engineers to take photos and samples of the tail assembly of the stealthy “Black Hawk” helicopter that was abandoned at bin Laden’s compound after it suffered a hard landing during the raid.
From the FT:
“The US now has information that Pakistan, particularly the ISI, gave access to the Chinese military to the downed helicopter in Abbottabad,” said one person in intelligence circles, referring to the Pakistani spy agency. The Chinese engineers were allowed to survey the wreckage and take photographs of it, as well as take samples of the special “stealth” skin that allowed the American team to enter Pakistan undetected by radar, he said.
President Barack Obama’s national security council had been discussing this incident and trying to decide how to respond. A senior official said the situation “doesn’t make us happy”, but that the administration had little recourse.
Islamabad is naturally in damage control mode over the report, denying that it shared the wreckage with anyone until it was returned to the U.S. nearly a month after the raid.
Here’s what current and former Pakistani officials told U.S. government backed Radio Free Europe about the matter:
“The report is totally baseless and we strongly reject it,” Pakistani military spokesman Major General Athar Abbas said in response to the “Financial Times” report.
Asad Munir, a retired brigadier-general and former ISI station chief in northwestern Khyber Pakhtunkhwa Province, discounts the possibility that the Chinese were given access to the U.S. helicopter.
He notes that the remains of the stealth helicopter were handed over to the United States within a few days of the May 1–2 operation to kill the Al-Qaeda leader.
“There are no Chinese defense experts who are experts in helicopter technology that are present in Pakistan,” Munir says.
The complete truth and how it will impact the already strained U.S.-Pakistan relationship remains to be seen. Still, you’ve got to wonder how much anyone was able to glean from the tail assembly. At a minimum they would have a better understanding of modern stealth coatings (more advanced than the coating found on the F-117A Nighthawk wreckage that China was rumored to have accessed in the late 1990s) and the high-tech rotor assembly that may be designed to reduce the chopper’s noise signature.
{ 62 comments… read them below or add one }
And we still support these fools?
I never understood why we didn't align ouselves closer with India can someone please explain that to me?
India has as much if not worse corruption than Pakistan. They can be made unstable very quickly there.
Really so how come they have had a democratic government for over 60 years.
No more aid to Pakistan!
America hasn't always been in bed with democratic governments. During the Cold War, our favorites ironically were often pseudo-democracies in the developing world, such as in Central America and the Phillippines. Our Comintern opponents were uniformly socialist/communist varying in "hard line"-ness from Mao-style oppression and bourgeois-purging (also found in North Korea?) to semi-token socialism such as in the MidEast.
That said, India was granted independence and went towards the Soviets (but not quite in bed with), away from the sphere of their former colonizers. Pakistan went the other way and became our friend in the west.
Logistics, India doesnt share a border with Afghanistan
Gee, having a border and supporting our enemies…let's see which is more important…..
India is a strategic ally not anything like Pakistan. Let's see how China handles Pakistan and what its neighbors think of China helping Pakistan build nuclear subs as its economy becomes a laughing stock…
Pakistan is to China what Israel is to US, a bufferzone and a centre for regional influence. Even is Pakistan is reduced to the likes of Somalia (low probability) China will step in to support.
India may be a strategic ally, but at the moment is not interested.
Because supporting Pakistan prolongs the war, which means profits for corporations and neocons beating the war drum.
We allied with Pakistan precisely because independent India allied itself with the Soviets. Same thing with China, who see the Soviets and the Indians as their competition in the region.
The stupid thing is that we kept alliances with the Pakis, against the Indians, despite
Pakistanis: (a) committing genocide in Bangladesh, (b) launching numerous failed wars and (c) terrorist attacks against the Indians, (d) promoting violent jihad, (e) going backwards economically, politically, and educationally, (f) developing nuclear weapons and providing (g) the technology to North Korea, (i) hiding Osama bin Laden, and (j) supporting our enemies in Afghanistan.
So, we supported Pakistan because, in the 1950s, they hated the communists. Since then, the country has gone backwards while India has gone forwards. Its time to call an end to this B.S.
Perhaps because India didn't want to be your puppet ?
You forget that India actively distanced itself from the USA and the USSR to pursue their policy of Non-Alignment.
Which explains why their military consists largely of Russian made planes & ships.
Just because I bought a BMW doesn’t make me German. They are aloud to buy whatever equipment fits their needs & budget.
If you look at Nehru, early post-independence he probably leaned socialist. With nationalisation of industries, it's easy to see how the United States saw this as a possible communist threat.Indira Gandhi also /sounds/ pretty socialist too, at least up until she did her emergency powers gig.
The "non-aligned" movement was an attempt by Nasser and Nehru to set up a third axis of power beyond West v Warsaw Pact. It is the origin of the term "third world." It was less communist than the USSR, it is true. However, a lot of the "third world" countries found themselves aligned one way or another with one of the major blocks.
The problem is that national defense, foreign policy etc is still run along the lines of the West v Warsaw split, even tho it is hopelessly out of date.
BTSOM!
We supported Pakistan because India and the Soviet Union had established close relations during the cold war, a relationship India still enjoys with Russia today. We are in the process of shifting are diplomatic ties however as India is a more stable and promising democracy, not to mention a rising military power.
You dont need to be an "expert" to take alot of pictures and use a schapel to get samples.
'Still, you’ve got to wonder how much anyone was able to glean'
Every little helps…
Let's give them another one billion this year just for the heck of it.
We ought to cut off the aid we are giving their government and hopefully someone will have enough sense to block the sales of the F16C&D fighters that they want.They can go buy fighters and get financial aid from China since they are now such good friends.
From what I know of Islam is that they view lying to non-islamic people as no sin at all and their religion encourages them to do it to meet any need they want. So is Major General Athar Abbas Islamic?
You do have a point.
Hell, Alfred, let's give billions to China as well, since we seem to love getting used and abused by these countries.
We're like victims of domestic violence, we know we're in a bad situation but we choose to stay and get raped again and again. Have we no honor or common sense?
Huh, I would've been surprised if Pakistan hadn't given the Chinese a look.
I guess nobody should be surprised if we're going to see a chinese stealth chopper prototype soon.
At least it wasn't the hypersonic engine we left behind.
Let's back up here. Tail rotor, advanced blade design, advanced materials. What is the PRC getting out of this more than materials composition?
That alone that you've listed is a shortcut through years of R&D, saving time and money (not that they need to), even if they don't copy directly, its somewhere they could start of from that they might not have considered otherwise
There are plenty of hysterical people on the 'tubes who feel that a tail rotor means China will start deploying helicopters based on a single piece within months or years. There's a reason the lion's share of the helicopter was destroyed in place-to prevent more significant tech acquisitions by the PRC.
Are you kidding us? You can't imagine what the Chinese can glean from a sample?
Maybe you can tell us idiots what could be gleaned…..
Time to consider redirecting money to development with India and our forgotten war. Perhaps Boeing should partner up with the T-59 as well. At what point does DT start its advocacy for "change"?
T-50 that is, as posted above….
With such "allies" USA don't need enemies:)
Of Course the Pakistanis in exchange for arms would let Russia and China peak at our captured stealth technology i know this was going to happen before you guys did.
WHY IS THIS A STORY?
The Chinese did what ANY countries military Intel would do…..
but we're paying pakistan in the billions, while china's just playing patty-cakes with them. so since we're paying in the billions, they shouldn't be selling our secrets to the chinese.
Our problem then is that Pakistan is willing to sell us downriver, not that China is willing to buy.
I guess it's because they get hundreds of millions of dollars in financial aid not to mention all the military aid and equiptment from us,and then turn around and betray the US and allow one of our [potential] enemies access to our stealth technology.Also if anyone thinks they didn't know Bin Laden was living in their country a few hundred yards from their military academy then I have some oceanfront property for sali in Arizona.
Except all of our "allies" do it when it suits them. GB, France, Israel. Let's not even forgot the Liberty. Google USS Liberty. And yet, they're still great "allies" of us.
Liberty was an accident in the fog of war, they thought it was an Egyptian ship that had been shelling the Israelis at el arish.
Not a crazy assumption on their part because they specifically asked our 6th fleet HQ where our ships were and were told that there were no US ships in the war zone…
Israel did apologize and pay compensation to the victims.
Has Pakistan apologized for this treachery? Have they ever paid us compensation? Oh wait, we pay them and apologize to them when they are offended when we kill the terrorists that they wont fight themselves…
Advanced stealth coatings and tail rotor designs aren't going to do them much good if they don't even know how to build a decent engine.
Which is why we must field ten thousand F-23's. [/satire]
The better question should be: Why are we still catering to China?
I know someone will say "they own us", but that is not the exact truth. They actually own only 6% of our total debts. So, why are we so afraid to hurt China's feeling every time the Taiwanese F-16 issue is mentioned?
If China stops buying our debt a lot of the other buyers will get cold feet also and our interests rates will spike – we will end up paying more to service out debt and we cannot afford it. Especially in a election year!
If I were running the PLA I would want Taiwan to buy F16s to justify increasing my own spending, knowing that if there is unification without a major war (by vote or Chinese intimidation), I get the F16s.
Would it surprise anyone if members of the Pakistani government allow officials from China to inspect the US helicopter wreckage as these are the same bunch of guys who say they're our allies while letting Bin Laden live in their country.
So let’s see if I got this right: we send billions to a country that supplies/hides terrorists and gives our tech to China (Pakistan), yet we won’t send serious aid to our actual allies (ROC/Taiwan)? Awesome
Ok, it’s time to cut off aid to Pakistan. Let China take the reigns of that nation, they had just sold them fighters (JF-17?). America just sold C-17s to India, why not become allies with a DEMOCRATIC nation that’s part of the Commonwealth. Instead of a terrorist hotbed. I’m serious what else could Pakistan do to us if we stopped funding them? Hide terrorists (check), sell nuclear tech/knowledge (check), sell weapons tech (check), hide Osama bin Laden (check, and shot it the head), fund terrorists (check), close their borders to us (check), etc… I’m sry but all Pakistan is is a way to lose billions of tax dollars a year, with no real gain for US/ISAF troops
Gotta agree with you, Pakistan is no longer serving its purpose. What bothers me is why two consecutive governments allowed billions to be poured in the hands of a deadweight ally
80% of everything you need in Afghanistan goes through Pakistan , its that simple , you can always pay Iran instead if that makes you feel better , i am sure the concessions you would have to make to them to go with the cash wouldn't sting at all .
I agree, but keep in mind Pak is very fractured, with some of their generals and ISI chiefs funding terrorists, others fighting (some) terrorists, some friendly to the US, others craving war with India… It's a mess, and it's tempting to get out.
The problem is they have nuclear weapons and terrorists. It's important to have our people in Pakistan to cultivate a working relationship with their generals and ISI – both to encourage them to keep their terrorists in check, and to keep an eye on the people who have the keys/launch codes to their nukes.
I also like the idea of marines and SF able to operate inside Pakistan when needed, and air assets nearby. If a Paki nuke gets loose or readied to launch against India, I want us able to find and destroy it within an hour. You can’t do that effectively by leaving Pakistan to the wolves and Chinese.
That suggests we even have people in place within the government close to personnel in charge of their nuclear forces.
How deeply was SAC and the Submarine Service penetrated by the Soviets during the Cold War? Or the Strategic Rocket Forces, Long Range Aviation and the Soviet's Submarine services? The ability to penetrate a nation's strategic arms deeply enough to know when high command or rogue elements decide to pop one off is low probability.
I have a feeling they may already have this capabillities. They may have it from their past years of hacking spy info gathering
Actually, without a viable naval carrier force, China' employment of such a "stealth" helicopter means nothing to the US. They don't need such an aircraft to dominate the continent they already dominate. They have no deployment capability and won't for 10 more years….by that time, 88% of the US debt will be owned by China and they can merely forclose on the pentagon……I have often wondered how much the White House will go for at auction…..after all, it IS in a terrible neighborhood!!!
88%? man, then all our rich people must be dead by then. Chinese conspiracies!!!!
Jk ahahahah, just having some fun in this ending summer :)
In reply to Matt,
You also forgot to add that we will soon no longer need them as we have been building rail lines in from Russia.
Technically you would be building in rail lines from the 'stans (Taijikistan? Uzbekistan?) that would /likely/ go from airports, which means high initial costs to bring goods in (versus much lower costs sending them by ship from Pakistan). Alternatively, you imply continental rail connections to the Pacific or to Europe, which means you have to play nice with a number of nations where the rail is running through, which may include Russia, or perhaps Turkey, or maybe even China depending on how things are constructed (most likely Russia though).
Which means you will have long shipping times from a seaport, through rail, into the 'stans and into Afghanistan proper. And then you have to pray that there aren't rail gauge changes…
The air-rail option would then cost about the same as the port-rail option. But at least it's "safer" and less psychologically damaging than overland through Pakistan. That said, are we not paying the tribesmen to protect our stuff? Or is the Pak Army not particularly great at protecting those supply convoys?
More info from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Af…
1) Apparently nothing through Tajikistan with rail, though Dunshabe is a supply link to Afghanistan. (Was I thinking of Turkmenistan?)
2) The rail gauge question is a lot worse than I thought…?
It sounds like we have three links (two Uzbek and one Turkmen) through the north at present; and the possibility of adding rail from Pakistan through to the south of Afghanistan. If protected, this would ease resupply into Taliban country. At worst, it gives insurgents a target to raid and continuously draw out American forces to protect.
Afghanistan might stand to gain from moving heavy rail through the country. If India and Pakistan reconcile some differences, goods could move through India and after a series of intermediate jumps could go to western Europe. Or China could trans-ship through Afghanistan to Pakistan for delivery to the Middle East. Alternatively, it gives Iran a potential opening for material transport between it and China, which sounds rather ominous.
People miss the point the reason why we have to pay Pakistan through the nose while they attend meeting in Tehran on how to defeat us in Afghanistan, is precisely because we did everything possible since the cold war to convince them that they were mere hired help and not allies.
The few billion dollars we spend is a joke compared to the economic development that China is pumping into Pakistan. Pakistan can see that we still aren't serious.
The great irony is that India thinks the same thing and isn't at all keen for anything more that an arms length relationship with the US.
His point is that the Muslims have a long history of lying through their teeth to the infidels (which we happen to be). So, is the General merely being diplomatic, or is he doing a routine data hide from us, the "infidels"?…..
Generals, Politicians, Diplomats, Ministers all lie through their teeth-whether they are heathen or infidels doesnt really change the fundamentals
We shall never let this pathetic, Pakistani act of revenge diminish the shining success of our drone diplomacy!
ugh. look chinas current helis. all the scavenging is great but them developing a stealth copter would be laughable since their"own" produced helis date back to licensed french copters like the dauphin from the 70s and 80s and the frelon which they upgraded is still used. at least the j20 had background of resources when it was designed since china has already designed modern fighters such as the j10. but hey, who knows? plus would china really spend over 100 million on a helicopter???
For mass amusement by all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mount_Hope…