Happy hump day, everyone. Check out this close up photo of China’s Z-10 attack helicopter. Remember, the Z-10 — like the brand new Z-19 — looks familiar because it’s based on the Eurocopter Dauphin light cargo chopper. You know, the same helo the U.S. Coast Guard uses for search and rescue and even combat air patrols over Washington, DC.
Notice what may be advanced flight helmets that project flight and targeting data onto the pilots’ visors. Kinda like these.
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Cue the slew of, this thing sucks because it's made in China/by the Chinese in 5 … 4 … 3 … 3 … 1 …
Yeah, I have to agree. A lot the equipment China manufactures are copies, but this isn't one of them. Be aware of China's faults, but at the same time give credit where it is due. It was designed with the assistance of Eurocopter and Agusta Westland, but this is a Chinese product. It's as much Chinese as the Rooivalk was South African, and we didn't hear the same sort of rhetoric when it came out.
I can't claim to know anything about this one, but it sure doesn't look like it's a challenge for say… our Blackhawks, or several others of our equipment – agree?
You do know that UH-60 is a utility helicopter?
Aside from the Apache and Russian helos, pretty much every modern attack helicopter (The Rooivalk, Tiger, and Mangusta) all have similar characteristics. If this takes cues from any of those designs, it certainly isn’t a blatant rip off like the J-11 is of the Flanker.
The more important parts, as well are know are underneath the skin.
Riceball, looks like its already started.
Even if it was what does it matter? A copy will kill you just as dead as an original design and at the end of the day I'd rather have a good copy of a proven design over a crappy original design.
Riceball – true, but then shouldn't we call it a Chinese copy of _____ than a "Chinese" helo?
AKs are made all over the place. we mostly just call them AKs vs. the local nomenclature.
Yeah, but so are Taliban's AKs: made in China.
Yeah, people said the same thing about the A6M in 1941…
Similar design cues to the Eurocopter Tiger. If its similar in operation, then it will rarely fly.
“Remember, the Z-10 — like the brand new Z-19 — looks familiar because it’s based on the Eurocopter Dauphin light cargo chopper.”
Um, no. While the Z-19 is very clearly based on the Dauphin, the Z-10 doesn’t share any similarities to Eurocopter’s design. Most notably it has a traditional tail rotor rather than the Dauphin/Z-19′s fenestron rotor.
To be honest… the similarities (if it is as stated and the designers are smart enough), should lie in the lifed components. So anything likely to be replaced is a good start in being common. Engines and the control system for the engines, maybe flight controls too.
It is like buying (I'm talking european cars here as I don't live in the US) the Seat Leon or a VW Golf. Both cars look different, but have a LOT of things in common under the skin.
Though some things are misleading sometimes… look at the Jetstream 31 and the Jetstream 41… aircraft I have come into contact with a while back. They were passed through under the premise that they would be "similar", but ended up sharing nearly no common parts whatsoever!!
Americans are familiar with the idea of rebadging cars.
I have to hand it to them, this is a nice looking bird, and so is the WZ-19.
The black paint job makes it look pretty menacing/bad ass.
Are you chinese by chance? OBAMA LOVER!
And I would have gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling kids!
you and david letterman and obama are all best friends are'nt you?
Oh yeah, you totally caught me.
I have a poster of Mao in my bedroom and hammer and sickle bumber stickers. Every day I convene in our secret Commie bunker of doom to plan the destruction of America.
The Tiger hasn't worked out well at all for the Germans. I agree that if the problems present in the Tiger are present in this design, this helo will be hanger bound for much of its service life.
"Notice what may be advanced flight helmets that project flight and targeting data onto the pilots’ visors. Kinda like these."
They look a lot like your standard, nearly three decade old, Integrated Helmet And Display Sight System (IHADSS).
Then they've joined the modern world when it comes to helmets.
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Alright, whoever gave China the Eurocopter Tiger? Step forward now because you're in a lot of trouble.
I don't think people on here really like the fact we are accusing China of copying better technology. Well that's just tough s**t. Hey China, use your creativity rather than reverse engineering a Lavi to a J-10, Sukhois, MiGs and MiL helos; or did you kill off the creative ones?
So what if they're copying other people's designs? Their copies will kill just as dead as the originals that they're copied from. Just look at things from their perspective, they're trying to be a world power but they have decades of catch up to do and the quickest & cheapest to do so is to not re-invent the wheel and copy other people's designs, whether or legally or illegally. Eventually they'll catch up and start to work on their own designs but in the meanwhile they're learning how to do so first.
It's called ingenuity and their lack of it. It has been demonstrated since the 1950s in weapons tech.
Let me put it this way. Let's say the Chinese acquire our best technology. Let's say that by some circumstance an F-35 or F-22 was shot down over one of their allies and they get enough tech to catch up to us. What is in their mindset to do is immediately make copies of the technology. However, what they will not do is keep progressing/inventing technology and pass us. That is just not in their mindset and their system doesn't even promote doing that.
Also, about the copies killing you just the same as the originals, there a lot of drawbacks to copying technology. Copied technology has never fully stacked up against the originals because the people making the originals know the tech inside and out. The Chinese copied weapons don't necessarily perform as well as their Russian originals. It is true though that they aren't anything to laugh about since I imagine the difference would not be extremely drastic and numbers can compensate for these drawbacks. The only thing I laugh at with China is their lack of creativity.
That's because China started out with a disadvantage and didn't have the advantage of a Meiji to modernize them and bring them into the 20th century. Then add to that the civil war before and after WW II and then the Cultural Revolution didn't do a lot to modernize China and resulted in their isolation and caused them to fall greatly behind tech wise. But look at them now, in the span of a decade or two they've caught up to the point that at worst they're fielding 90's tech. So lack of ingenuity or not copying and licensing tech has clearly worked for China and it won't be too long before they start to come up with their own designs.
Another thing to keep in mind is that regardless of how much ingenuity the Chinese do or do not exhibit in their weapons designs at the end of the day they'll still kill you just as dead as the most innovative design will.
What do we have for American Ingenuity? Swamp People & Jersey Shore….
WZ-10 looks like T-129
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TAI/AgustaWestland_T-129
Black paint? Great! Should be easy to spot in the reticle of a Stinger in no time flat!
Ha the smog's so bad there's basically no background in the photo.
Fighting smog is what welfare states do.
Or, what a good government that is concerned about public health does.
Public health is welfare. Every dollar not spent on military weapons [and advancing the Soviet Union] is a dollar spent on burgeoise pursuits such as the pursuit of happiness.
The US have real clean air & water but look where our economy is at.
With a per capita GDP five times that of China? It would still take many decades for China to catch up to the US on a per capita basis, and I think is real questionable as to whether that is even possible given that the main reason their economy has grown is low cost exports, and in order for their economy to grow, wages will have to go up, which makes their expoerts higher cost.
I’d rather have clean air and water and a crappy economy than the other way around…call me a Commie
Or progressive instead of totalitarian.
You're perfect actually; if you want it so badly you'll come up with a way of getting it, government or no government…..
You can't find any insult that's original and now you are attacking the BACKGROUND of the picture? Come on, have you ever used a long zoom lens before?
Whats the advantage of having small windows on a realtively low flying chopper? – stealth?? Seriously…
It seems that they don't believe in situational awareness anymore.
Or might it be they prefer greater armor protection around the pilots?
(That sensor turret under the nose literally looks just like any of those systems commercially available from companies like FLIR.Com or such.)
I'm curious to see a top or bottom view and see how that chine/strake looks like it blends into the stub wings.
Looks like a heavier copy of the Eurocopter Tiger Light Attack helicopter. Easy meat for a F-15 or F-22 ;)
The Tiger has a max weight of about 6 tons, putting it into the medium weight class, not light. All helos have similar advantages & disadvantages when up against fast movers. The AH-1 & AH-64 series are just as vulnerable to Su-27, Su-30, J-10 & J-11.
Why are you comparing Helicopter and fighters jets?
No he's just saying it will be easier to shoot down for 5th gens! =D
Like any helo is even remotely a match for any modern fighter?
You have to consider the source.
WZ-10 flying around few days ago.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZkrgPZ7tvo
Actually the profile, landing gear location, cannon and sight/laser assembly all look very similar to the new upgraded Mangusta A-129.
But can it shoot down Eric Stoller's helicopter like in the movie Firebirds?
Hanger Queen
Knock it all you want…. that thing looks hot
Based on…secret insider information?
WTF? That wasn't supposed to be in response to Kotch.
With China becoming bent on helping the Europe , US and the rest of the world, it probably half democratic right now, inspite of its communism ideology. China was trading with us with a lot of product for centuries. They probably consider selling us some of their helo.
Yeah, they are a big help with Syria, Iran, Pakistan and N. Korea.
china is not helping us. they are preparing for another war with us.
you don't remember the korean war? wake up!
They can't afford a war with us, their economy and especially their continued economic growth is too tied into ours, they need us to continue to buy from them and not to default on what we owe them in terms of our debt they hold to afford war with us. We stop buying from them and we choose to ignore that portion of our debt they hold and their economy goes down the toilet and they'll be right back to where they were before this big economic boom of theirs and they'll have a country full of very, very unhappy people because they've grown accustomed to the lifestyle they live now and will not and do not want to return to how it was.
In short, China needs us more than we need them and thus can't afford a war with us. At least not in the near future.
This should keep those Uyghurs and Tibetans in line from their freedom wanting ways!!
Trying to figure out what all the painted marks are. Pluses and anchors?
Pluses look like APU connection points, and anchors step points
bigger pic: http://goo.gl/Tjfim
Strngely enough, where I come from (USMC), the little anchor symbols denote anchor points. Where you tie it to the ground. The little plusses are actually the standard symbol for fuel. Those are the refueling points. You can even see the gas cap in the big picture provided by FormerDirtDart. The little square with legs on it is a jacking point.
Both of you; thanks for the info.
Where did they steal the specs? From who? Thats the Chi-com way. All those neat Apple toys are made by slave labor, they work the ppl to death. F*ck Apple, and Steve Jobs eff you too. Wherever ur "soul" is. Wat a J.O.
Thats right and i hope no one votes for that obama again or he will give it all to them and weaken our military. IMPEACH OBAMA!
looks g@y
from us or someone else. they want to take over the world and obama is trying to help them do it by cutting the military and such.
Look at it this way. Let's say the Chinese acquire our best technology. Let's say that by some circumstance an F-35 or F-22 was shot down over one of their allies and they get enough tech to catch up to us. What is in their mindset to do is immediately make copies of the technology. However, what they will not do is keep progressing/inventing technology and pass us. That is just not in their mindset and their system doesn't even promote doing that.
Also, there a lot of drawbacks to copying technology. Copied technology has never fully stacked up against the originals because the people making the originals know the tech inside and out. The Chinese copied weapons don't necessarily perform as well as their Russian originals. It is true though that they aren't anything to laugh about since I imagine the difference would not be extremely drastic and numbers can compensate for these drawbacks. The only thing I laugh at with China is their lack of creativity.
Actually the Chinese copies sometimes improve on the originals e.g. several versions of their RPGs are preferred over the Russian originals because of the lighter weight and they also concentrated on making more anti-personnel warheads.
you are absolutely right. they have been preparing for another war with us since the korean war. i hope it never happens. that will be the end of the world.
And the Chinese copy of the MiG-21, the J-7, is actually quite popular too being in active use with a dozen or so nations although most are likely in the process of being retired now. Back in its heyday the J-7, or F-7 for the export market, was widely used by all number of 3rd world air forces although it wasn't as widely used as the MiG-21 was.
Another example of copies being better than originals are AKs and SKSs, although both were originally designed in Russia licensed copies from Yugoslavia, Romania, and I think Czechoslovakia are generally considered to be better than the Russian originals.
Let's hope that someday China will copy something they will regret.
like open market capitalism? that one is going to catch up to the Party.
I was thinking of the F-35 actually; but while we're at it, who would pick to run the market, corrupt corporate execs or corrupt beaurecrats?…..
My crystal ball say me…..aerodinamics/center of gravity is largely based on Ka-50. Forward shape is "cool look" no real RCS reduction. Helmets if they work are from Israel. IFF, FLIR and cannon turret are mock up. So Why they build it? They are trying fly a Hokum without a complex rotor hub.
Paid for with interest from US Treasury notes and fire sales of plastic crap from Walmart and Target.
Bear in mind that the winner in those arrangements between Walmart and random chinese manufacturer is usually walmart. Chinese manufacturer usually only makes money on high volume, whereas Walmart pockets the markup after paying shipping.
If Walmart pays the Chinese supplier X, it is usually charging Y to the consumer. At the beginning Y is ten or twenty percent more than X to pay for the cost of shipping, distribution, wages with a little left over. But every year X shrinks while Y increases.
Huh! Wal Mart is paying less to it's Chinese supplier? Where did that come from? Prices are going up for Chinese products not down.
Wages are going up on the supplier's end, while in a free market system Walmart et. al will traditionally attempt to haggle the price downwards, leading to corresponding cuts in quality.
The articles reporting on Apple and its relationship with Foxconn indicate Apple has been trying to bring the price it pays per unit down every year, even as wages increase. At some point, those manufacturers won't be able to sustain their businesses.
And Big Army lets SHORAD wither and die…If the balloon goes up in the Pacific, Big Army will miss SLAMRAAM and Avenger.
SLAMRAAM, Ground-launched Hellfire will be missed. Don't know about Avenger. Maybe Linebacker? That and I wish they'd retrofitted something with longer range to a Bradley than Linebacker…and maybe we'd need ITV's if we have to fight large amounts of enemy tanks.
in my opinion their kind of copying the ah-64 apache look but of corse it all depends on the function of the vechiel and for all we know it's probley better than we think
How so? Build an armored helicopter with the systems needed to engage tanks from far away and it's suddenly stealing an idea from Americans?
The Cobra might've been the first purpose-designed helicopter gunship, eventually turning into an ATGM platform when it fired the first TOWs for the Easter Offensive. The Soviets deployed the Hind, which was a development of their armed Hips, and the rest is history.
Progressive = Totalitarian
All leftists throughout history fashioned themselves as a "progressive", a transgenerational, The One You Have Been Waiting For (TM).
Indeed leftists, "liberals" "progressives" they share and even fight over the true meanings of the term and ownership of "progressive" but what can be confirmed is that there is nothing progressive about the leftist ideology which the parties carry as their mantra. An ideology I might add that is rooted in the failed economic models of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. An ideology which capitalist republican democracy has curb stomped back to the third world where it belongs.
I don't see anyone is saying their stuff isn't deadly. It's just not original or creative. I don't buy into giving any country credit for copying another country's tech. An AK is an AK whether it's make in Russia, China or the US.
Many seem sensative to calling these Chinese weapons developments what they are. Copies of other nation's systems and I don't buy the "disadvantaged" Chinese bit. The Chinese were copying SIMPLE US mortars, recoiless rifles's & arty since the 50's. That's FIVE decades not two. The reason the Chinese helo looks like a Eurocopter is because the Russians wouldn't sell the Chinese any newer helos to copy.
The Jersey shore tv show, has nothing to do with new jersey culture. Ironically new jersey usually has one of the best education systems in the country.
I was going to say Wright Brothers, one of the last "American" inventors who figured things out from first principles instead of blind persistence (cough cough Edison).
In any case, American ingenuity eventually crushed the remotely detonated, non-command wire IED into the ground. Jamming a frequency-hopping cellular phone antenna in combination with radio com-det is no trivial feat, especially without jamming your own communications systems.
Could be. For all we know, it could be better than the Apache, or it could be a complete POS that falls apart when it fires it's gun. All opinions here (mine included) are pure conjecture.
My point has always been that all of this bashing of China's lack of original weapon's design seem to imply that because they're copies they're automatically inferior to the originals or somehow less deadly. At the end of the day all that really matters is if the weapon does what it's supposed to and does it well, does it matter all that much whether it's an original design or a copy of someone elses if it works?
As for disadvantaged, you're right on that, to a degree. It would probably more accurate to say that China is behind the curve and busily trying to catch up. China was once the most advanced and most developed nation on Earth but got complacent and turned inward and stopped innovating and developing and that's when the West caught up and surpassed China. Unfortunately for China they never had a Meiji to bring them into the modern world like Japan did and the Communists, esp. Mao, didn't do much to encourage/re-introduce the tradition of innovation that was once a part of China's heritage. I'm sure that China will start to slow and eventually stop copying and licensing other people's tech and start to develop their own. They've already started in the form of the J-20 and their bullpup rifle and the carrier they've been playing with is widely believed to mostly so that the Chinese can learn how to build their own.
Blind persistence takes as much skill and a lot more guts than genius normally does…..