Home » Air » F-16 Co-Designer Claims F-22’s Glues Causing Hypoxia

F-16 Co-Designer Claims F-22’s Glues Causing Hypoxia

by John Reed on June 21, 2012

This is interesting, A-10 Warthog father, F-16 Viper co-designer and longtime F-35 Joint Strike Fighter hater, Pierre Sprey has come out saying that the glues  used to fasten F-22 Raptor’s stealth coatings to the aircraft’s skin are responsible for the spate of hypoxia-like symptoms suffered by its pilots (it’s getting so bad that we can almost say that Raptor jocks routinely suffer hypoxia).

Normally, I’d be skeptical of the the claim. However, Sprey says the glue, made of classified chemicals and is routinely reapplied to the jets, emits toxic gasses when the jet is travelling at Mach 1.6 and above. Guess who recently said they suspect the Raptors unparalleled mix of maneuverability, operating speeds and altitudes may have something to do with the problem? The U.S. Air Force.

Here’s what Gen. Janet Wolfenbarger, chief of Air Force Materiel Command, told lawmakers last month:

“We have some recent data that we are starting to believe, we are coming to closure on that root cause,” said Wolfenbarger during a May 8 Senate Armed Services Committee hearing. “We’re realizing that we operate this aircraft differently than we operate any of our other fighter aircraft, we fly at a higher altitude, we execute maneuvers that are high-G at that high altitude and we’re on that oxygen system at those high altitudes for periods of time.”

“I’m not ready to say yet that we’re ready to declare a root cause,” she added.

As we said at the time of Wolefenbarger’s comments,  the Air Force has been studying this problem for years and hasn’t been able to find a cause — despite enlisting the “best minds” from DoD, NASA, academia and industry to study the issue, according to Wolfenbarger. The fact that the F-22 operates at such extreme (possibly record-setting) levels beyond what other fighters — including the Navy’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet that uses a similar On-Board Oxygen Generating System  (OBOGS) as the Raptor — may explain why no one has been able to diagnose the problem.

Now here’s what Sprey told the Panama City News Herald about the F-22’s adhesives and its extreme performance:

Sprey said when the F-22 reaches speeds above Mach 1.6, which is about 1,200 miles and hour at sea level, the adhesive sets off gases that can cause the same symptoms of dizziness that have plagued the F-22 pilots. When the F-22 is in for repairs to its “stealth coating,” the adhesive is re-spread across the plane.

“The adhesive has to be reapplied,” Sprey said. “When it is, it increases the risk to the pilots.”

According to Sprey, the pilot is exposed to diisocyanates, which are found within the polyurethane glues that comprise the stealth coatings, at a number of times because the adhesives are reapplied in the upkeep of the plane. Sprey said diisocyanates are well known as an industrial hazard that can cause both severe lung and neurologic problems.

But, [Air Force Spokeswoman Heidi Davis] said Sprey’s theory cannot be considered a leading line of inquiry at this point because it would need to be reconciled with contrary evidence related to the absence of toxins in life-support system components, cockpit air samples, or post-incident pilot blood samples.

Sprey vehemently disagreed.

He said polyurethanes are used in the Lockheed Martin stealth coatings, which also contain diisoycanates, and are one among several potential sources of poisoning of pilots that Lockheed and the Air Force should have been testing for toxicity long before they flew the first F-22. The Air Force said diisoycanates have not registered in the blood of F-22 pilots.

Sprey thinks the service won’t acknowledge that the glues are behind the problem because it would mean a costly refit of the 180 or so Raptors.

Dealing with the F-22’s glues, which provide the F-22 its stealth, would mean a “major rebuild of the airplane,” Sprey said.

“The F-22 and the F-35 are three-fourths of the Air Force budget, and that is what is at stake,” he said.

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{ 137 comments… read them below or add one }

Richard Stalker June 21, 2012 at 11:55 am

Hmmmm new stealth glue……or pilots dying? hmmmmmm tough choice

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Matt Sturgeon June 21, 2012 at 3:29 pm

They dont care if all the 22s crash. The AF wants them gone. They have turned their back on the plane.

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Steve June 22, 2012 at 12:08 pm

Reminds me of the stealth coating problems during the development of the U-2 spy plane. The testing of the stealth coating cost one of the CIA test pilots his life when the coating caught fire burning the plane and pilot at alttitude. Heat causing molecular change is not a new concept? We need to look at magnetism and bending light for better stealth technology while developing stronger metals that do not need a special coating to work.

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Riceball June 25, 2012 at 1:38 pm

How does magnetism and bending light help against radars? The whole purpose of stealth coatings is not to render aircraft invisible to the naked eye or MAD detectors but to absorb radar signals so that they don't bounce back to the receiving antenna, add to that the specific design of the aircraft which is designed to keep what gets through the coating to reflect back in such a way that it doesn't bounce directly back to the receiving antenna.

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RockStar February 21, 2013 at 8:24 am

Use to be people over equipment. Well thats over when the equipment is worth 500 million!

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T.M. June 21, 2012 at 12:24 pm

The body that handles MDS sheets won't even acknowledge that isocyanates are harmful in the United States. Polyurethanes and isocyanates are so ubiquitous in everything, that if isocyanates were actually recognized as extremely harmful, it would affect many industries and probably the economy.

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6113 June 21, 2012 at 1:13 pm

I'm willing to bet that they cause cancer in the State of California…

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DGR June 21, 2012 at 4:23 pm

Taking a leak causes cancer in the State of California…….

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ghost June 27, 2012 at 4:17 am

I just got cancer by reading your post.. guess where I’m at..

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Matt Sturgeon June 21, 2012 at 3:28 pm

Are they used in everyday items at mach 1.6+ in the upper atmosphere? Chemical properties change based on environment…

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blight_ June 22, 2012 at 9:43 am

It's probably the heat generated going at Mach 1.6. They could've tested this in an oven, presumably.

Or just place a sample in a GC headspace analyzer, though it would depend on if headspace can heat up to the equivalent of Mach 1.6.

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Pilgrimman June 21, 2012 at 3:40 pm

…And in other news, fluoride in our water supply is actually a mind control agent planted by the government (which we all know are puppets of the Illuminati).

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blight_ June 22, 2012 at 9:43 am

Maybe you should just stick to drinking distilled water.

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Tad June 21, 2012 at 4:15 pm

You specify the United States. Do you know of other countries that recognize isocyanates as harmful and regulate them strictly?

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T.M. June 21, 2012 at 4:25 pm

Yep, they are classified Xn – Harmful in Europe.

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jbabb June 27, 2012 at 8:31 pm

interesting to note that an Indian City, Bopal, had thousands of people killed when an isocyanate plant released into the atmosphere.

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Smokey June 27, 2012 at 10:07 pm

As a former tactical jet driver (A-7), we used liquid oxygen, that provided 100% oxygen–but it was a closed system from tank to mask (securely fitted to the face–no outside air from any source). As I understand it, using an oxygen generator, I doubt if there is any path for the contamination to enter the mask, but I could be wrong. A more likely possibility, hi-G maneuvers require a special breathing technique to remain conscious; that fast-paced demand may exceed the production capability of the generator (the longer the g-load, the longer the requirement for the technique. One would think that they have considered that, but who knows…

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Pat June 29, 2012 at 10:42 am

That's not correct. There is no body that specifies what the MSDS must contain. Its totally up to the manufacturer to supply the information for their product. OSHA only requires the MSDS to have a specific categories of information. Isocyanates are recognized as harmful. Thats why OSHA has exposure standards for isocyanates and requires specific types of respirators plus other protective gear when using them. I've done personal exposure monitoring on people who used them as part of 2-component paints.

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DanS June 21, 2012 at 12:51 pm

Better living through chemistry.

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Black Owl June 21, 2012 at 12:56 pm

I have no idea what diisocyanates are or what polyurethane glues consist of, but the only part of this article that stuck out to me was this:

"Dealing with the F-22’s glues, which provide the F-22 its stealth, would mean a 'major rebuild of the airplane,'"

"The F-22 and the F-35 are three-fourths of the Air Force budget."

The USAF is seriously screwed up if it's going to risk pilots lives and extremely classified technology in malfunctioning jets to save itself embarrassment and so it can buy more aircraft that haven't been fully tested. We should definitely look into this. It may require the USAF to kill F-35 funds to make the F-22 usable. We already bought 180 or so F-22s at $150 million a piece so they should take top priority. The F-22 already went through production so it's obviously the better one to have. If there is not at the very least an investigation into the stealth glues on the F-22 as a cause of the problem then I think our USAF leadership should be fired and replaced.

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Pilgrimman June 21, 2012 at 1:01 pm

Just take your anti-F35 agenda elsewhere please.

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Black Owl June 21, 2012 at 1:30 pm

I don't have an anti-F-35 agenda. I even supported the F-35A until I found out about this. The fact that the USAF is worried it can't afford to fix the F-22 and acquire the F-35A is a testament to obscene price that the F-35A has. We already have the F-22 so if it comes down to having usable F-22s or malfunctioning F-22s and a small amount of F-35As, then I think we should focus on fixing the F-22s. Keep in mind that I have supported the F-35A and I have only targeted the F-35C and F-35B in my criticism.

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STemplar June 22, 2012 at 2:46 am

Does that mean you should take what I assume is a pro F35 agenda and leave as well? I mean fair is fair.

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RWB June 21, 2012 at 5:27 pm

Exactly where do you get the $150 million price tag for the F-22?

When the generals last went to beg congress to add more planes to the production run they said that seven more F-22s would cost 3.5 BILLION dollars. Since all of the R&D had been done and all of the production tooling was in place that means they were asking for $500 million per plane.

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Mark June 22, 2012 at 11:50 am

During production an additional lot of 100 more F-22 would cost $116 million per plane. Earlier I copied the source to this statement in another story on this sight. However I am sure you can google it.

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PMI June 23, 2012 at 4:32 pm

So you actually believe that the F-22 & F-35 are 3/4 of the AF budget?

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DGR June 21, 2012 at 1:09 pm

If its toxins from the glue, can someone tell me why they need to rebuild the entire fleet when they could just install new air filtration systems? Hate to break it to y'all but toxins are common place on aircraft, heck, JP-8 will strait F you up if you arnt careful…… Ya it could be the cause, but the solution is not rebuilding the entire fleet, thats just BS. If its the glue, then a filtration system should eliminate the fumes and toxins.

Ive been saying till im blue in the face, the Air Force has a vested interest in making sure this thing can fly. They will find a solution but knee jerk reactions, to what could be a simple fix, is not the way to go. Now if they determine its serious, then ya, sure lets look at the alternatives but for all we know its a $.20 o ring that keeps failing……

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6113 June 21, 2012 at 1:23 pm

Maybe they shoulda bought the 50 cents o-ring instead huh?

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Skyepapa June 21, 2012 at 4:04 pm

That could result in a cost overrun, then haters would hate on the F-22 like they hate on the wayyyy cheaper F-35.

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Dark Knight June 28, 2012 at 3:44 pm

The F-35 being "wayyyy" cheaper is false. I have worked as a technician on both programs. There were cost overruns and lay-offs on both. I know this because I went through them on each program.
The F-22 is no longer built and the tooling for that bird has been replaced with tooling for the F-35. So a filtration device would be the practical "wayyyy" to go in this particular situation. One problem would be the weight of such a system. The naval variant of the F-35 has had weight issues from the very beginning.

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El Tirador April 17, 2014 at 4:40 pm

The F22 Aquisitions have concluded. This would come out of yearly defense budgets request.

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tiger June 21, 2012 at 6:20 pm

If you saw the 60 Minutes report, they tried that route. Problems remain.

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DGR June 22, 2012 at 8:45 am

They tried a simple filter, a filter that caused more problems, not a dedicated filtration system.

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538d June 24, 2012 at 2:01 am

Could the glue explain the ground crew problems? We don't hear much about their complaints. I have read were they complained of the same problems.

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Ace in D hole June 21, 2012 at 1:16 pm

amen DGR this guy trying to sell his BS idea of the glue to put his name out threr and is just plain wrong..I work with these aircraft everyday and it aint the glue baby

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John moore June 21, 2012 at 2:37 pm

Lucky punk

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DGR June 21, 2012 at 3:50 pm

Sure beats the B-52……. some guys have all the luck…….

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JackBlack June 21, 2012 at 4:00 pm

"I work with these aircraft everyday and it aint the glue baby" by Ace in D hole

Ok, please enlighten us then what it is, since you probably are in the position to do so.

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brick 6 June 21, 2012 at 8:41 pm

Sprey isn't "trying to get his name out there" he's a well know and respected fellow if sometimes perhaps infamous. He knows more about aeronautical engineering that you and the current USAF "best and brightest".

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Amicus Curiae June 24, 2012 at 3:01 pm

Sprey is not the co-designer of anything. He is a self promoter. He knows a few buzz words, but he is not an aeronautical engineer by any stretch of his imagination. He may be the best and brightest at something, but it is not aircraft design synthesis.

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NoKidding July 26, 2012 at 12:21 am

care to submit a thorough Amicus brief in support of your claim?

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Lance June 21, 2012 at 1:31 pm

Sad to say whatever is making the problem it'll take a major overhaul of F-22 fleet to fix. Id say build new raptors with te fix and overhaul current one BUT thats not happening since the Raptor is DOA on production.

I do laugh and say is the glue made in China????

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LRGaribaldi June 23, 2012 at 11:12 am

The composition of the glue is classified so no. Besides it isn't the Chinese with poisoned planes killing their pilots right now.

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Riceball June 25, 2012 at 1:44 pm

How do you know that? Last I checked, the Chinese don't have a stealth plane in their inventory just yet so they wouldn't be experience the issues that we are since none of their planes would be using this glue since none of them have a stealth coating. Admittedly there's the J-20 but we don't know if that has a stealth coating yet or if they just doing airframe and aerodynamics testing. Besides, just because they steal a lot of their tech doesn't mean they steal everything or necessarily use everything they steal. I have no idea what's so special about this glue that it's composition is top secret but who's to say that the Chinese don't have their own glue formula that they like better than ours?

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RunningBear June 21, 2012 at 1:31 pm

CFR 1910.1200; The purpose of this section is to ensure that the hazards of all chemicals produced or imported are classified, and that information concerning the classified hazards is transmitted to employers and employees.

Isocyanates have numerous uses but few are commonly applied at temperature of the heating levels of Mach 1.6 and above. This implies an ability to contaminate the breathing air or cockpit pressurization systems, thus introducing the chemical into the obogs or thru the pilots skin surface. This chemical exposure would be reduced at slower (lower temperature) flight conditions or as the lower presence of the chemicals in an older (dated) applications. How diisocyanates/ polyurethanes "gasses off" and contaminates either system is a question for the hydraulic studies of both the pressurization system and the obogs (possibly both).
Re-skinning the plane is not required if it is possible to remove the chemical from the air systems or to route the air supply from a clean (or cleaner) source. Hmmmmm………..

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1dreambuilder June 23, 2012 at 1:25 pm

This remark is either right on or the work of a kaniving genious. But it sure seems like it's based on sound thinking. Thanks for your comment RunningBear.

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Vaporhead June 25, 2012 at 12:58 pm

OSHA has zero jurisdiction over military unique operations.

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Guest June 25, 2012 at 2:36 pm

Which sub-section is this? I have reviewed CFR 1910.1200 and found NO mention of of your second paragraph. Looks like you are cutting and pasting from different sources assuming no one will cross check. The first paragraph does not refer to "classified" in the "secret" context, it is a reference to the classification of chemicals.

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Anonymous June 21, 2012 at 1:33 pm

But the military already told us what the problem is…pilot error! Support the troops!!

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JackBlack June 21, 2012 at 4:01 pm

Support the Army standpoint, blame the personnel, signed Department of Defense.

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Black Owl June 21, 2012 at 1:45 pm

"The F-22 and the F-35 are three-fourths of the Air Force budget."

Just thought about this. The USAF consumes its fair share of the defense budget, but you mean to tell me the 3/4 of it go to a fleet of about 180 aircraft and a strike jet that hasn't been built to production standards yet. That legitimately surprises me. Stealthy jets are REALLY expensive. Much more expensive than I previously thought.

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tiger June 21, 2012 at 6:23 pm

While the Mig chasers are sucking fumes, the drone guys are doing all the real work to kill bad guys.

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Ftr Dude June 22, 2012 at 9:13 am

Your figures are wrong. The USAF does NOT consume its fair share of the DOD budget…it get's only 21% of the budget, the lowest percentage since it became a separate service. That explains, in part, why we are flying 50 yr old bombers and tankers and have a fighter fleet that averages 24 years old. That's unsustainable and replacing all those aircraft is essential if we are to remain the world's best air force. We didn't buy nearly enough F-22s and the production of the F-35 continues to slide to the right. It's only going to get worse. The F-22 oxygen problem will get fixed. The focus of the AF today is on the anti-g vest and hose connectors, not glue. There is zero evidence to indicate glue is the issue.

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blight_ June 22, 2012 at 9:41 am

It still gets more than when it was the Army Air Corps, so it hasn't all been bad.

We are flying B-52's because the USAF switched from high-and-fast to low-and-fast (and then stealth), shedding a lot of high altitude bombers that couldn't make the cut. The B-1 would've joined them if not for the B-1B "reboot"; and the B-2 just cost too much, and was probably a warning that going with stealth fighters was going to be painful and costly.

The Army could argue that the Abrams is an '80s design, along with the Humvee, the Bradley and everything else running on M-113 underpinnings. Sure it has MRAPs, but those will probably get shelved before long. The Navy will argue that its Ticos are old and need to be replaced, the 688's and 688i's need to be replaced, that more sealift and minesweepers are needed, the frigates need to be replaced…

And that's the price of a large, well-rounded military. It gets expensive to turn over the entire armed services with new tech, so legacy hardware gets upgraded over and over again because it's economical.

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Ebbe June 21, 2012 at 2:01 pm

So . . . our pilots are sniffing glue?

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6113 June 21, 2012 at 3:38 pm

'Building model airplanes!' they say, but we're not buying it…

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A. Nonymous June 21, 2012 at 3:59 pm

Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue.

Gunderson, check the radar range. Anything yet?

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Russ June 21, 2012 at 2:43 pm

So its the glue used to re-bond the stealthy coating after being serviced and also in the assembly line. F22 Lockheed Martin Stealth…..F35 Lockheed Martin Stealth….So did anyone think to include the F-35 in this group that uses this glue? So… IF… it has the same glue will this not mean even more money has to be sunk into it? And more delays? OMG. I want this damn plane flying already. I am dual citizen US/Can and not only think it is a real cool air-frame but it is high time we underwent a force modernization like this. However….already on the tipping point, this could kill it in the Canadian public's eyes. Damn.

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Michael June 21, 2012 at 4:56 pm

Don't worry. The F35 won't make it to mach 1.6.

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El Tirador April 17, 2014 at 4:42 pm

The F35 has less capability than the F22 and may not have the same issue as altitude and operational speeds are significant different.

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WarPony June 21, 2012 at 2:45 pm

so it was the bio-med, nanotech skin coating … wow, whodathunkit?

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WarPony June 21, 2012 at 2:47 pm

meant: biological-mechanical (ALIVE & patented) "stealth" nano-thechnology skin coating

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T.M. June 21, 2012 at 2:52 pm

Isocyanates are no more "alive" than any other organic compound. So no, it's not your fantasy coating. It's just a glue.

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WarPony June 21, 2012 at 3:07 pm

of course not, I'm not in the "need to know" chain

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WarPony June 21, 2012 at 4:24 pm

one man's "glue" is another man's terminator (great-grandfather)

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WarPony June 21, 2012 at 2:49 pm

. . .aand I can't even spell!!!

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tribulationtime June 21, 2012 at 2:50 pm

I remenber a similar remark about F-16I israelies from Israel Air Force, I mean a oficial comunication. Pilots report headache, breath troubles, etc.

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Taylor June 21, 2012 at 3:02 pm

I stil think it could be low pressure created at the engine intakes. Remember that they said ground crews close to the plane were affected too but that may not be the case if it were the glue unless it was still hot from a flight. However, it would apply to them if the engines were running. If they have ruled this out, I haven't heard it. P.S. Be careful not to say the seven letter word for the compartment where the pilot sits. It seems to get automatically bleeped out….cockpit.

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Amicus Curiae June 24, 2012 at 3:10 pm

I know the conspiricy theorists will not be pleased, but the ground crew complaints are another red herring.

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elmondohummus June 21, 2012 at 4:14 pm

"But, [Air Force Spokeswoman Heidi Davis] said Sprey’s theory cannot be considered a leading line of inquiry at this point because it would need to be reconciled with contrary evidence related to the absence of toxins in life-support system components, cockpit air samples, or post-incident pilot blood samples."

That's not trivial. If the "glue fumes" released at supersonic speeds are genuinely the cause of the problem, where are the actual chemically measurable effects of that?

Now that said, yes I would freely admit that the lack of resutls Ms. Davis is invoking could be due to incorrect testing. The case of Gloria Ramirez:
http://baileylibrary.net/the-toxic-lady_http://di

… definitely opens the door to that possibility… (cont'd)

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elmondohummus June 21, 2012 at 4:14 pm

(… cont'd)

However, the tests not finding evidence of diisocyanate contamination cannot simply be dismissed. Whatever the explanation is that eventually comes from the investigation, it *MUST* explain that, too. Anyway, my overall point is that whatever study that the AF did to lead Ms. Davis to make the statement she made cannot be ignored. It might be flawed, or it might simply not be sufficient, but it cannot be ignored because it might also be the data that falsifies the diisocyante theory. All data must be examined, and ignoring the lack of toxins to believe it Sprey's theory would not be solid science.

The good thing about Sprey's explanation is that it's falsifiable. Just hypothesize more tests that can be done based on the presumption it's the glue and go from there. For example I'd be damn interested to see the results from sticking a sample of that adhesive on a plate into a supersonic wind chamber would be. It's testable. So hopefully the AF will go in that direction.

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citanon June 21, 2012 at 4:21 pm

How does glue applied on the exterior of a pressurized air plane get into the interior through the OBOG system? If this is the problem then a better filter like an earlier poster said or compressed oxygen backup should fix it.

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tiger June 21, 2012 at 6:25 pm

They have tried that already.

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citanon June 21, 2012 at 7:40 pm

That would point to Sprey's theory being off the mark. The AF is probably on the right trail with Combat Edge.

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Eye1 June 22, 2012 at 8:46 am

OBOG feed air comes from engine bypass air.
As an OBOG is a molecular sieve, anything bigger than H2 or O2 should never get to the pilot. I assume that off-gas compounds from diisocyanate would get trapped in the OBOG or its pre-filter.

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crazy June 21, 2012 at 4:29 pm

Somehow the pilots flying Lockheed’s original stealth aircraft survived the outgassing of similar adhesives and coatings from Mach 3+ flight. Read the AFMC CC’s statement again. The Combat Edge ensemble was intended to allow F-22 pilots to operate and maneuver at higher cockpit altitudes without a full pressure suit. The air mix being delivered and the lung’s ability to process it in that environment is a far more likely explanation for what’s going on and why the AF/contractor team hasn’t been able to nail it down. What Gen Wolfenbarger seems to be saying is that’s where the investigation is leading them.

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Praetorian June 21, 2012 at 8:26 pm
A. Nonymous June 21, 2012 at 4:36 pm

So, ditch the OBOGS and go back to LOX? Seems cheaper than replacing the adhesive for all of the RAM…

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tiger June 21, 2012 at 6:28 pm

You can't just ditch the system. It not like a spare tire on your car. As for LOX? It's been replaced by the newer system on most aircraft now. The Pluses of Obogs, outweight the negatives.

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Tim June 21, 2012 at 5:08 pm

This makes no sense. How could such a high tech plane allow toxic fumes to leak inside the cockpit? I'm sure internal pressure and speed alone would make sure that doesn't happen. And unless the pilot is flying without the mask on, chances are that any fumes he sniffed could be the hot wing belched gas from lunch.

But if you think the F-22's skin is "glued" together, I could sell ice to the Eskimos.

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tiger June 21, 2012 at 6:30 pm

How could the Space shuttle be destroyed by a peice of foam? Shit happens.

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briky June 21, 2012 at 8:47 pm

the skin is glued, the pilots breathe air filtered through the air crafts engines that's how obogs worx.

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Vaporhead June 22, 2012 at 7:36 am

The F-22's have also had history of this LO (low observable) material delaminating in flight and FODing out the motors. It wouldn't surprise me if also the off gasing of the LO material was getting in the oxygen system by the engine bypass system.

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RCDC June 21, 2012 at 8:46 pm

Now we heard and read the F-22 malfunctions, does these have the manufacturer's warranty?

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Amicus Curiae June 24, 2012 at 4:04 pm

You have heard and read about malfunctions, but has any measurement proved it?

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nate June 21, 2012 at 8:56 pm

If the problem is coming from the glue on Lockheed Martin Jets, I dont understand why they are not going out of their way to find a fix? Surely that is bad business for them, seeing as boeing is doing everything is can to build reliable and great planes, not to mention on time and to the original budget. Bad business lockheed martin!

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Kirk Gibbs June 21, 2012 at 11:18 pm

they've already been paid, they couldn't care less

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mpower6428 June 21, 2012 at 9:38 pm

im no fan of these "stealth crates" but, the glue cant be that new…..

i still think its the engines.

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pratt guy July 31, 2012 at 8:35 pm

nope

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doug June 21, 2012 at 9:41 pm

That guy knows more about aircraft than I do.

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ANGELO NICOLOSI June 22, 2012 at 6:47 am

ECHONINER……..FIGHTER PILOTS ARE BECOMING HISTORY……..F22 DRONES ARE THE FUTURE!!!!!!

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USAF MX Chief June 22, 2012 at 9:10 am

T.M. you are incorrect regarding the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) system not recognizing isocyanates as harmful to the human physiology. Please read this MSDS: http://tinyurl.com/7ddqynb

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Vaporhead June 25, 2012 at 1:02 pm

MSDS's are written by companies to limit liabilities. I looked up a MSDS for WATER and it stated that if you were to get WATER in your eyes, you should flush your eyes with WATER for 15 mins. Take MSDS's with a grain of salt.

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USAF MX Chief June 22, 2012 at 9:21 am

T.M. you should also review this MSDS on Toluene Diisocyanate: http://tinyurl.com/6sk6avp
This compound is commonly used as a solvent in surface coatings and other surface preparations (i.e., paint, primers, etc.)

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Woody June 22, 2012 at 9:34 am

Oh Christ….are some of you saying that the Raptor has been cancelled by the Air Force?…..to be scrapped?……what about the F-35?…..

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Amicus Curiae June 24, 2012 at 3:31 pm

Is it so far fetched to conceive that there is not a monolithic "Air Force" and everyone in it does not agree to procure the same equipment? Maybe there are some disgruntled groups in the Pentagon that are more interested in their careers than the taxpayer's dime. Maybe old scores are being settled. There are so may human frailties to choose from. Why should military people be exempt? Whatever the reason, there are not enough F-22s in inventory to justify the expense of keeping them current, so there is no question in my mind that they will be retired early. This fact was known to the decision makers, so they must be good with it. The F-35 has its own constituency. It looks like it is a more powerful group, for the moment. So many projects are being sacrifced to fund the F-35 now, it is likely enemies are being created. I think I may be one of them.

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blight_ June 22, 2012 at 9:34 am

What's the RCS penalty if you drop the coatings?

Debating if it would make sense to keep part of the fleet with coatings and some without. For instance, Alert 5 aircraft would be ready to go with stealth coats, aircraft for home defense on CONUS and training flights wouldn't need them.

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Non_Sequitur June 22, 2012 at 10:50 am

Interesting article. Food for thought – I recently read an article where some of the ground crews were reporting similar symptoms when working within the immediate vicinity of running Raptors. Could the constant re-application of this coating, or the process used for re-application, also be the cause for those complaints as well?

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Amicus Curiae June 24, 2012 at 3:41 pm

A ground running Raptor is converting hundreds of pounds of hydrocarbon fuel a minute into carbon dioxide, water and other gases like carbon monoxide. I would look there because I get the same symptoms when I drive my convertible behing a UPS truck. It is not the same problem the pilots experience. Maybe there are many independent causes to the phenomena. The current indictment of the Combat Edge upper pressure vest is a case in point. I think they should name this potential cause the "Scarlett O'Hara tight corset case of the vapors".

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John June 22, 2012 at 11:43 am

I thought the F16 was the Falcon, not Viper.

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Riceball June 25, 2012 at 2:02 pm

It originally was the Fighting Falcon but at some point (have no idea when or even why) it started to be referred to as the Viper.

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Craigpv2d June 22, 2012 at 11:49 am

Nasty fumes from glues, paints, etc., can find their way into, (or not get out of), all sorts of places. Large temperature swings can cause inadvertent internal pressures or vacuums in equipment. (Think of a simple Ball canning jar). Let me give you an example. I used to work in Avionics for MAG-39 AIMD at Camp Pendleton in the 80's. Many times we would smell cigarette smoke or engine exhaust or other chemicals when we opened up supposedly sealed electronic devices. Turns out the large temperature swings in the supply buildings, flightline, etc., was actually sucking in fumes at night when it got cold! It was more common in older equipment where the sealing was not 100%. Most of these fumes and gases don't really disappear, they mix with the air and are spread out to the point where they are not detectable. Since I got out of the service, I have been a construction electrician. Many times we deal with fumes that are sometimes decades old that are trapped in sealed spaces. PVC glue fumes from underground PVC piping are the most common. The pipes are glued, placed in trenches and backfilled before the glue has set, and the fumes can linger for years if trapped by water, etc. Methane gas can also leak into these pipes. Unlike when I first entered the trades in the 80's, we now always check for fumes and oxygen levels before entering enclosed spaces.
Perhaps the OBOG system is not compatible with these fumes. Since the OBOG system is not an oxygen generator, but an oxygen CONCENTRATOR, maybe it is also concentrating these fumes. Maybe the oxygen produced is contaminated, OR, the oxygen concentration sensors are affected by the fumes and make the OBOG system think it is making enough oxygen when it is not.

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Planodude June 22, 2012 at 12:32 pm

If adhesive glue fumes are suspected of causing F-22 hypoxia, I suspect the USAF has taken blood samples from F-22 pilots immediately after landing, for a testing program. Of course, anything found is highly classified, so exactly what, if anything, has been found remains unavailable to we, the public. I hope that this is the source of the pilot hypoxia, because the "fix" would be, should be, straight forward. That said, nobody should jump to any premature conclusions.

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Nightmare June 22, 2012 at 12:43 pm

Don't worry about the fumes;
Equip some acft with Full chemical gas masks, augmented with Oxygen when required and see what the results are. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out.

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JSFMIKE June 22, 2012 at 2:21 pm

Sorry but the editors of this column should comment immediately when decidedly false info is spouted. Case in point, the "3/4ths of USAF budget going to F-22 and F-35 combined." Doesn't pass the common sense test. Check cost of manpower, health care, and pensions! Another case is blaming upper USAF folks for killing F-22. Try Congress instead because they allocate the monies for everything.

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JSFMIKE June 22, 2012 at 2:29 pm

Hypoxia is a strange animal. Just the suggestion of it can cause it. My navy flying experience saw numerous cases of this, especially when pilots flew new-to-them planes, stressful situations, and any night flying. The body tenses, and forgets to breath. When concentration is very acute, the same thing happens. Add high G maneuvers and continuous turns in 3-dimensions and you induce hypoxia.

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Jimmy June 22, 2012 at 3:39 pm

Even if the stealth coating was emitting a gas, I'm not sure how it would get to the pilot. The F-22s OBOGS makes oxygen by taking bleed air directly off of the engine and then passing it to the pilot within a closed system and the pilot has his mask on all the time in flight. Also doesn't make sense that the pilot's blood wouldn't test positive for the gas……….

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Joey Serio June 22, 2012 at 10:21 pm

Why not a stand-alone, dedicated system of O2 supply, i.e. tanks, instead of a generation system for O2?

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Joey Serio June 22, 2012 at 10:24 pm

I missed the LOX comment above, same concept!

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Roland June 22, 2012 at 10:47 pm

Probably it best to send it back to the manufacturer to fix it, exchange for a new model or make it robotic where it will fly without human pilots on it..

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Amicus Curiae June 24, 2012 at 3:47 pm

Roland, the OBOGGS is working according to the specification and no toxic chemicals have ever been measured, although many have been alleged. What do you propose to fix?

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Roland June 27, 2012 at 12:36 am

Ask the pilots and the commentators. They deserve to be heard.

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Charles Buckman June 23, 2012 at 11:19 am

Two things here that always seem to guide what the top brass does: 1) never admit there was a mistake, 2) it costs too much to fix.

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John June 23, 2012 at 8:59 pm

Maybe it's just me, but if a principal member of the "Fighter Mafia" believes coating adhesives creates hypoxia for fighter pilots; do believe it is time for everyone to close their mouths, open their eyes and ears and listen.
Pierre Sprey was the design brains of the A-10 Warthog.

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Amicus Curiae June 24, 2012 at 3:53 pm

I know, I am redundant. Here I go again. Pierre Sprey had zero to do with the design of the A-10…ZERO. My recollection was that he thought it was the wrong airplane because of its size and weight. He was ridiculed in the design office where the real A-10 configuration was born. Now, will you reconsider your opinion?

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bon bon hi June 24, 2012 at 10:28 am

I am not a fighter pilot so please excuse my ignorance. You mean to tell me you can smell the fumes of the glue in the cockpit (still). I had another theory but this one is more likely . If this is true major irrisponsibility on the part of those in charge and really stupid considering the cost. ? would they not of caught this though during the grounding.

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Amicus Curiae June 24, 2012 at 3:59 pm

@bon bon hi: You are not ignorant, and your questions are valid. Does any of this controversy make sense? If there was a contamination problem or an OBOGGS malfunction, it should have been identified by now. Please consider that there is no contamination, and no OBOGGS malfunction. It may be an aeromedical issue that has been tolerated by other fighter pilots up to now, but the F-22 has taken a small step into the intolerable.

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Skunk1 June 26, 2012 at 10:47 pm

Pierre Spray has hated anything Lockheed has done dating back to the F-104 years. His philosophy is "if Lockheed did it, it's not any good".

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Eagle Keeper June 26, 2012 at 11:18 pm

Let me get this straight. You have F-22's that have two (2) jet engines and have already been produced and flying. Yes they have problems, so fix them. On the other hand you have F-35's that have one (1) jet engine and probably will utilize the same oxygen system as the F-22. Why bother with another aircraft that's going to have major issues ?!!! DOD contractors greasing politicians palms. What a waste !!!

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Ken June 27, 2012 at 9:00 pm

Rather than redesigning the glues and coatings why don't you got back to an oxygen system that uses tanks?

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cloudshe June 28, 2012 at 9:24 am

so you have a system that generates concentrated O2 from compressor bleed air, and you have pilots passing out? why the heck are you worried about cockpit air quality? and how would anything but nanoscopic quantities of toxic glue gasses get into the system, can you image the VOLUME of air going into the intakes at 1.6M??? although My suspicions would point toward that awful engine lube oil smoke getting into the compressor, the most likely scenario is Still that they know Exactly what's wrong but it will take many millions per airframe to fix. and the LOX suggestions is looking better all the time

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Jim from A1716A June 28, 2012 at 1:17 pm

Two suggestions. 1. Strip the stealth coating from the airplane, load toxic sensors and duplicate the flight of those that crashed and run the test at high speeds/altitudes. 2. Put pilot in a In a cetrirfuge and measure lung function at 9g's for "x" seconds to see if that is sufficient to support consciousness for flight control during maneuvers.

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Newcomer June 29, 2012 at 4:37 pm

Not a real techie by trade. Question: could an air intake nozel (micro small hole) fitted to the front of the plane with a dedicated stand alone system to provide oxygen to the pilots work? Or could frozen oygen heated by the operating temperature of the plane generate enough oxygen for pilots operating at the altituted and performance level where they keep experiencing the problems be a viable solution?

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blight_ June 29, 2012 at 4:45 pm

It won't do anything if the fault lies with the OBOGS unit itself.

As for heat and O2 tanks, I think the idea was to avoid carrying large LOX tanks if possible. Look at Apollo 13 as an example of what a spark in an O2 canister can do.

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spooky June 29, 2012 at 11:43 pm

Occam's razor, sometimes what's right in front of you really is the answer. Most of us know what the majority of fighter pilots are like, right? Cocky doesn't begin to describe it (in most circumstances, met some chill as hell fighter jocks too). What fighter pilot on this planet is going to admit that his plane out-flew him? Of course there's still doubt, because no F-22 jock will admit that the air force's explanation has any truth to it. I'm not saying that the "glue" theory doesn't make complete sense and carry a lot of weight, I'm just saying maybe people are looking for zebras when they only hear horses.

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Rich Davis July 1, 2012 at 10:59 am

Set up a few test aircraft with the older liquid oxygen system and don't dilute it with cockpit air. Use bottled air for dilution. Wear a pressure suit not pressureized from the aircraft system. Pilot's breathing and skin will have no contact with any potential glue fumes.

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Kjo July 5, 2012 at 1:51 pm

Holy crap…the "glue" does not make the jet stealthy. Sealant is used to bond RAM to the airframe. ITS NOT SOME SUPER SECRET! How the hell else would one keep something on a jet that travels at supersonic speeds? I highly doubt the fumes are causing hypoxia.

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blight_ July 5, 2012 at 3:45 pm

You'd think the RAM was tested on other demonstrator aircraft. I wonder if it can be bonded to a different demonstrator aircraft (F-15?) to see if the pilot hypoxias out as well.

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maxx July 25, 2012 at 12:25 am

Make robots to fly the plane and do not buy from China.

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ofens August 10, 2012 at 4:44 pm

Darrol Olsen knows. He filed a lawsuit because of mercury & other forbiden toxic materials in its stealth coating.
Read how the government covered it up.

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blight_ August 10, 2012 at 5:31 pm
JackBlack June 21, 2012 at 4:03 pm

SUPPORT!

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Skyepapa June 21, 2012 at 4:11 pm

Since I can't say bullshit in this forum, I'm just gonna call argument non sequitur on this one.

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Tad June 21, 2012 at 4:24 pm

I don't understand what you're saying. You say we know who killed the F22 but all I see is the F22 killing its pilots.

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Anlushac11 September 28, 2012 at 1:49 am

Except that the USAF has been working to retrofit F-35 technology into the Raptor. I dont know if its bits and pieces or if they are working on a upgrade package with a block number. But I have read that certain F-35 technologies were making their way into the Raptor. TAKE FROM THAT WHAT YOU MAY.

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Matt Sturgeon June 21, 2012 at 4:45 pm

Thats probably best.

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Matt Sturgeon June 21, 2012 at 4:48 pm

Try harder to understand next time before responding, Tad.

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