Home » Air » Turkish RF-4E Recce Jet Down Near Syria (updated)

Turkish RF-4E Recce Jet Down Near Syria (updated)

by John Reed on June 22, 2012

Well, this is interesting. A Turkish RF-4E Phantom photo-reconnaissance fighter has apparently gone missing near Turkey’s border with Syria on the Mediterranean coast. RUMINT is spreading that the jet was shot down by Syrian government forces.

UPDATE: Reports are emerging saying the jet was indeed shot down by Syrian forces.

While the BBC is reporting that it was an F-4 Phantom that went down, it should be noted that the Turkish air force only fies the RF-4E recce version of the legendary — and ancient – fighter.

Remember, Turkey is a NATO state and members of the alliance are already providing aide to the Syrian rebels, (including the U.S., the CIA is apparently shipping them weapons).

This RF-4E could well have been gathering intel on Assad’s troops when it was shot down.

It’s also worth asking if this will warrant a heavier intervention by NATO forces on behalf of the rebels?

Here’s what the BBC is reporting.

 

Turkey’s government has called an emergency security meeting amid reports that one of its fighter jets was shot down by Syrian security forces.

The F-4 Phantom disappeared over the Mediterranean, south-west of Hatay province, not far from Syria’s coast.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan was initially quoted as saying: “The other side have expressed regret”.

Later he could not confirm what brought the jet down but said rescue teams were searching for the crew.

“Regarding our pilots, we do not have any information, but at the moment four of our gunboats and some Syrian gunboats are carrying out a joint search there,” he said.

Relations between Turkey and Syria, once close allies, have deteriorated sharply since the uprising against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad began in March 2011.

The Turkish military said it lost radio contact with the F-4 at 1158 (0858 GMT) on Friday while it was flying over Hatay, about 90 minutes after it took off from Erhac airbase in the province of Malatya, to the north-west.

The private news channel, NTV, later cited unnamed military sources as saying that the plane had crashed off Hatay’s Mediterranean coast, in Syrian territorial waters, but that there had been no border violation.

The Syrian coast guard was helping the Turkish coast guard, navy and air force search for the two crew members and the plane, NTV reported.

Witnesses in the Syrian coastal city of Latakia meanwhile told BBC Arabic that Syrian air defences had shot down an unidentified aircraft near the town of Ras al-Basit.

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{ 152 comments… read them below or add one }

SPIROS XAGORARIS June 22, 2012 at 4:25 pm

The Turkish airforce flies also a modified versio of F-4E (F-4E 2020 Terminator).

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Nicky June 22, 2012 at 4:43 pm

That's what I like about F-4's they are so reliable and rugged. The US Should have kept them for CONUS Guard Duty and keep the RF-4E as a tactical ISR bird

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USSHelm June 22, 2012 at 11:49 pm

Yeah, but in a dogfight they aren't worth the JP-7 in 'em.

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SJE June 24, 2012 at 12:26 pm

So? You also aren't going to do a dogfight in other recon aircraft.

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kski June 22, 2012 at 4:41 pm

At least it was thiers and not ours. But it would have been better in the long run because it could single to the public that military action in the form of a couple of carrier, amphibious and expeditionary strike groups to be sent to the area to really start overthrowing the regime. Why do you think we spend billions on global capabilities. It makes absolute sense to take action were the navy with tools and know how and were already in the area!

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DCP June 22, 2012 at 5:01 pm

Because what we really need right now is a protracted land campaign in Syria. We spend trillions on defense so hopefully we don't have to flex our muscle but can if needed. We don't spend trillions on defense just to show off and wave our dick around "because we can".

I fail to see the strategic interest for the US in engaging in a protracted land campaign in Syria. That's not to discount the humanitarian reasons, however strictly from a geo-political standpoint it makes no strategic sense. Invading/no fly zoning Syria is different from Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan. The Russians and the Iranians can't afford to let their biggest Mideast domino fall and won't sit idly by.

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blight_ June 22, 2012 at 5:12 pm

If Iraq goes into the pot, Syria would be nice to have. However, we are unlikely to "have" Syria just because we depose Assad. If anything, it would bring back the UAR; and back then the members were Iraq, Syria and Egypt. Sound familiar today?

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tiger June 25, 2012 at 1:05 pm

What is this "we" stuff? Syria is not our affair And we have ducked it for a year.

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Cuneyt June 22, 2012 at 10:59 pm

You mother fuckers why don't you move you badasses and come directly Turkiye for war! We are real warriors not trilloners.

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Ian June 23, 2012 at 10:51 am

I haven't seen Arab warriors yet…..seriousy…

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Pen_Par June 27, 2012 at 5:10 am

Ian, honestly, Turkey is not an Arab country. I know how screwed up some of you (not all of you) Americans can be when it comes to geography and common sense, but if that's what you lack then perhaps it's for the best to re-evaluate your position before making comments that are only going to backfire a bit later?

Now Cuneyt, Turkey isn't interested in a war with Syria. Turkey can invoke Article 5, and have NATO swarming in, but then what? We'll have World War III in our hands. If NATO moves in, Russia, China and Iran will be swarming into Syria. It's highly likely that other Gulf countries (this means the UAE, Saudi Arabia, and other Arab countries) will be moving in, and adding to the conflict.

I personally currently live in Turkey, and while am not fund of Turkey (because of personal reasons), I dare say that the Turks have taken the best course of action at this time. It would be a massacre if Syria isn't handled diplomatically. And I'm personally one who is absolutely against Syria's current bloodshed, and would support anything that would end the current pitiful government residing in Syria.

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Woody June 27, 2012 at 1:50 am

Wow …big talk from a 3rd century *******….be careful what you wish for, you just might get it….Arabs only know how to hide in the shadows and use women and children as sheilds…..go martyr yourself and do us all a favor….Achmed…..

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Sarek T'pel June 23, 2012 at 9:13 pm

because this kind of discussion I always conclude:
There is not evil bigger than USA and NATO in world.
Always using some excuse to invade some country…Always.

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majr0d June 24, 2012 at 4:34 am

You're an idiot. Here we are supporting Turkey and you're whining. Incredible.

Oh yeah NATO (and the US) was real bad keeping the Soviets out of your country for half a century. Stationing nukes and spy flights from your country was only to help the bad guys.

How soon they forget…

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Lance June 22, 2012 at 4:42 pm

I agree the F-4 is Turkeys main heavy fighter. I do think possible the Syrians mad from yesterdays defection shot a RF-4 for being near Syrian air space. Who know now??

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ziv June 22, 2012 at 6:14 pm

I think they have around 240 F-16's, and less than 160 F-4's.

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Lance June 22, 2012 at 8:21 pm

Yes but the F-16 is Turkeys light fighter to supplement the F-5. the F-4 is there heavy fighter. Most of there F-4s are interceptors or recon planes.

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Can D June 24, 2012 at 5:40 pm

Turkey no longer flies F5. F16 is the main interceptor for almost a decade now. Other then the IAI upgraded F4-2020 Terminators only RF4s are being operationaly flown. Rest are training, retired or picked.

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Nicky June 22, 2012 at 6:29 pm

You gotta luv the F-4, It keeps going even in the face of 4th, 5th and 6th gen fighters. I would have kept the F-4Es for CONUS duty or even kept the RF-4E for ISR duty or even bring back the F-4G for wild weasel duty. It's a rugged, reliable and combat proven bird. It's the "World’s Leading Distributor of MiG Parts" it's also known for "the triumph of thrust over aerodynamics."

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Benjamin June 22, 2012 at 5:21 pm

Hope the pilots are still alive.
I hope the Syrians were not dumb enough to risk a conflict with Turkey. Turkey alone could whoop there butts. With minimal NATO help it would be a route.

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ziv June 22, 2012 at 6:40 pm

It sounds like both pilots were rescued, no word by whom.

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ziv June 22, 2012 at 7:08 pm

Half an hour later, the Telegraph is still the only news source that has Turkish officials saying the pilots are ok. I hope they are right.

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tiger June 25, 2012 at 1:06 pm

NATO has enough on it's plate now. No thanks….

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Pen_Par June 27, 2012 at 5:14 am

Turkey can, but then would have to risk dragging Russia, Iran and China into the conflict. If that happens, the rest of NATO joins in, and then the Arab countries rush in to protect their interests. In the end, you get WWIII at your hands.

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STemplar June 27, 2012 at 12:13 pm

Russia and China talk big S, but the Russians do not have the means nor do the Chinese to deploy beyond their own borders in any significant fashion or for a protracted time frame. They do not come within a mile of the logistical capability of the US, let alone NATO combined.

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dfor June 22, 2012 at 5:23 pm

I wonder whether or how NATO's Article 5 would apply here…

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Sarek T'pel June 23, 2012 at 9:14 pm

because this kind of discussion in americans foruns, I always conclude:
There is not evil bigger than USA and NATO in world.
Always using some excuse to invade some country…Always.

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majr0d June 24, 2012 at 4:27 am

ROFLMAO. Same guy will be asking, "Where's the US?" when his dictator starts abusing him or he gets invaded by some other country.

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jose June 24, 2012 at 11:48 pm

The US probably put the abusing dictator in power …

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majr0d June 25, 2012 at 12:16 am

Another "blame America first" clown.

Sarek T'pel June 25, 2012 at 2:41 pm

No.
We never asked for your intervention.
Stay inside your country and shut up. Let the rest of the world on peace!

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STemplar June 25, 2012 at 2:50 pm

Is there peace in Syria? Hadn't noticed lately.

Benjamin June 25, 2012 at 2:51 pm

Syria is burning right now. How is that peace? Only seems to be death, destruction and corruption to me.

majr0d June 25, 2012 at 2:56 pm

Sarek – What country are you in? Who's talking intervention? You sound like a very nervous Syrian.

Benjamin June 24, 2012 at 1:22 pm

Logic allows you to act in defense of yourselves and your allies. This is not acting aggressively but acting in your own defense. Treaties like that which formed NATO are meant to deter other countries from attacking the member nations. Turkey is a member of NATO as is the U.S. and most western European nations.
There is no bigger evil then those who would betray there friends and allies.
Even Spock has killed people with a phaser.

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dfor June 24, 2012 at 9:06 pm

Nice try, troll.

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STemplar June 25, 2012 at 12:24 pm

What excuse did Syria use in its 30 year visit in Lebanon? Doofuss.

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STemplar June 24, 2012 at 1:23 pm

They are sitting down to talk in Brussels on Tuesday, so I would imagine we are going to have some clarity about this question shortly.

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FormerDirtDart June 22, 2012 at 5:49 pm

Can one Turkish RF-4E in 2012 equal the USS Maddox and USS Turner Joy in 1964?

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kim June 22, 2012 at 6:51 pm

The main difference being, of course, that everybody involved actually seems to agree that the RF-4E was really shot down.

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Oppervlakkig June 22, 2012 at 8:13 pm

No I don't think it can and I think it won't. Vastly different contexts and situations. And don't forget the world has changed: in minor incidents, the UN and International Law play a huge role. Vastly more than in in 1964.

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majr0d June 22, 2012 at 11:22 pm

Uh yeah. UN's made a huge difference in N. Korea and Iran. The UN is a tool the big players use to influence the board.

You're ignoring Turkey's relatively recent moves to a more indendent foreign policy and desire for a greater role in the middle east.

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Oppervlakkig June 23, 2012 at 5:28 am

Of course the UN is a tool the big players use, I agree with you on that. The big players however have wholly different interests, so there is some sort of balance. That balance is also more or less channelled by the rules of International Law. Before the Iraq War of 2003, the Bush administration desperately tried to convince the UN to give them a mandate to invade. They didn't and the 2003 Iraq War was an enormous blow to the reputation of the US and they won't be eager do it again, even if Romney becomes president. I'm not saying the UN can stop all war, but I do want to stress that it is at least a pretty big buffer.

I agree with you that Turkey recently has become more assertive in the foreign policy area and that it desires a greater role in the middle east. The latter it had for over 60 years now. But I have absolutely no reason to think that such a minor incident will be blown out of proportion to commence a retaliatory strike, as happened with the USS Maddox and Turner Joy. The language of Syria and Turkey was from the beginning off very peaceful.

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majr0d June 23, 2012 at 2:26 pm

Fine, just disagree that "Iinternational Law and the UN" are more effective now than they have ever been.

matt June 22, 2012 at 5:51 pm

I wonder why there are reports made public about the CIA arming the rebels, did our dearest leader once again inform the media top secret information for the sake of his re-election bid?

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majr0d June 22, 2012 at 11:23 pm

The truth hurts sometimes.

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Brad June 24, 2012 at 9:45 am

Right, because reporters never pay people off, and low lever people that know something never say anything about it, right? I'm sure the president called the NYT directly from the Oval Office and just spilled the beans all over the place right?

Grow up. It was the Bush administrtion that leaked the identity of a CIA officer for political reasons. Go get your head checked.

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majr0d June 24, 2012 at 1:31 pm

Uh, we aren't talking ONE leak here. Underwear Bomber II, Bin Laden op, Drone strike decision matrix, stuxnet, flame… Yeah, reporters and low level people (LOL). You're an apologist (because the truth hurts).

You need to widen your reading on Valerie Pflame. Look up "Armitage" and why he says he "leaked" the name of an agent.

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Brian Black June 22, 2012 at 6:05 pm

Turkey drew up plans for a security buffer zone in northern Syria at the end of last year. And the rumour mill has been increasingly contemplating a first-strike bombing campaign against Syria over the last couple of months, particularly after the cross border shootings into Turkey and the deployment of Syrian Scuds -including five chemical weapon capable missiles- to the border region. It appears that Turkey has only held back from intervention to give the Syrian parties an opportunity to take up the increasingly irrelevant Annan peace plan. It seems likely that there’ll be some Turkish military event soon, but I doubt all out war.

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Thunder350 June 22, 2012 at 6:35 pm

After this incident it intervention is only a matter of when, not if. Unless Obama tries to force a pause until AFTER the election here at home.

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Brad June 24, 2012 at 9:51 am

Personally I don't see how it would effect the election either way. Of the two candidates, I think Obama would be seen as the more "anti-war" president, even if he has led us in 3 seperate conflicts (I mean this as opposed to Romeny of course). So if the president less likely to participate in a war decides to do so, the candidate that is more likely to start/particiapte in a war can't really blame the former for doing so.

Unless Russia and Iran got involved, which I kind of doubt they would on a full-scale level, it would look more like the Libya campaign than Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan. The Libya campaign did not affect the president's approval ratings a great deal in either direction.

The only thing that being in a conflict w/ Syria during the election that would benefit Obama is that its not generally a good idea to change leaders in the middole of a war. However given all the other issues this year no one would be thinking about that.

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Thunder350 June 22, 2012 at 6:54 pm

Turkey has called for a emergency meeting to discuss what has happened.

Article 5 of the NATO treaty states.

"The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defense recognized by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area."

Turkish Prime Minister said in a statement earlier today, "Turkey believes it was indeed Syria that shot down its fighter jet and that the pilots have yet to be found. Most ominously, that Turkey would respond decisively once it had established exactly what took place today"

It's only a matter of time until the bombs start dropping and we free the Syrian people of this brutal, illegitimate leader and give them the freedom they been asking for international intervention for.

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Oppervlakkig June 22, 2012 at 8:18 pm

Oh please don't. This won't be labelled as an "armed attack against Turkey" and moreover this would not be used as an excuse to begin a bombing campaign. Please stop blowing things out of proportion.

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George Gauthier June 23, 2012 at 3:19 am

Well the attack was not in either Europe or North America. It happened in Asia. So Article 5 does not apply.

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Oppervlakkig June 23, 2012 at 5:32 am

:')

But seriously no. It won't be taken that literal. Turkey is in the context of the NATO treaty part of Europe and an attack on Turkish troops will, if Art 5 is considered to be enacted, probably be viewed as an attack on troops from a European country.

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STemplar June 24, 2012 at 1:26 pm

Read article 6. Article 5 does apply.

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tiger June 25, 2012 at 1:14 pm

Wrong.

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GTown Fan June 22, 2012 at 6:58 pm

Here's food for thought. The F-4E is an older airframe, probably not the model that the Turkish air force would use when facing a peer air defenses. Would it be possible that the plane was sent on this mission, not with the intention that it'll be shot down, but with that possibility in mind.

If Assad was moving into the neighborhood around Aleppo / near the Turkish border, Turkey may have wanted to warn off Assad by aggressive patrolling near the border. Incidentally, aggressive patrolling using an airframe whose loss won't be critical.

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blight_ June 22, 2012 at 8:03 pm

I think the point was that the Turks weren't interested in a fight, hence the RF-4. If they wanted to attack, they would've used F-16's and their F-4E/2020's or F-4E/TM's.

Maybe the Turks should've used their UAVs. Yes, they have UAVs…

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andy July 24, 2012 at 8:01 am

Turkish airplane was an RF-4E which a version of intleligence and ground radar emmision logging. The primary target was to search and identify possible Russian military surface to air equipment , entered the later days into the Serian field. Assad after the event stated they regret shot down the Turkish plane, fact they wish to had been avoided !!! Porbably this statement means: "We wish to had under control the Russian user of the ground to air missile equipment "

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Scott C-P June 22, 2012 at 7:58 pm

http://cimsec.org/syria-downs-turkish-f-4-in-the-

Yeah, F-4Es have all been undergoing upgrades to airframes and avionics, both turkey's the F-4E 2020s and and RF-4Es

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Lance June 22, 2012 at 8:21 pm

Wonder if a SA-10/20 or a MiG-29 shot it down???

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Oppervlakkig June 22, 2012 at 8:30 pm

The Aviationist speculates it could be one of the five SA-5 Gammon (S-200) sites in Syria. http://theaviationist.com/2012/06/22/tuaf-f4-shot

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Nate June 22, 2012 at 10:46 pm

Please…Turkey may be a NATO member, but they are not a NATO state in any other real sense.

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Can D June 24, 2012 at 5:46 pm

What would real sense be? Turkey was part of numerous NATO missions. Besides holding up the whole of the Southern Flank on its own against the Warsaw Pact, Korea was one where you should really find a US veteran and ask them about the Turks. Turkey had ground, sea and air assets in front lines in Bosnia & Kosovo and more recently Turkey has about 1200 strong force in Afghanistan.

I think you should read up on your history before throwing up comments with a racist slur.

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tiger June 25, 2012 at 1:15 pm

That made zero sense.

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Cuneyt June 22, 2012 at 11:13 pm

You mother ****ers why don't you stop playing games and move your bigasses come directly Turkiye for fight if you really want it! We are the real warriors. Not like Iraq nor Iran etc.

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Rapier975 June 23, 2012 at 9:36 am

Cool your jets, fool. Everyone here is supportive of Turkey in this situation. Calling us MFers and boasting about how you are not Iraq, and real warrior and all that is pointless. Look to your actual enemies before challenging your friends.

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BRIC Together June 23, 2012 at 9:18 pm

Man, there is not evil bigger than United States in the world today.
Always using some shit excuse to invade some country…Always.

Some fo them are hypocrite, others naive…But dont matter what they say or what they think, americans are the bad guys.

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Bash June 24, 2012 at 6:53 am

Yea….because Assad killing 10000 of his own people was not reason enough…….idiot.

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Benjamin June 24, 2012 at 1:24 pm

Believe it is up to 15K now

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BRIC Together June 24, 2012 at 9:00 pm

Dont matter, dont matter.
Soverign is soverign. Auto-determination of the countries must be respected at all costs.
Dont matter if you like! It is not your country.
Your people are the enemy, you can think its not. But is how we see you.

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Benjamin June 24, 2012 at 9:45 pm

The deaths of 15K people don't matter? If you lost someone you knew would you say they don't matter,don't matter?

blight_ June 24, 2012 at 10:55 pm

"Auto-determination of the countries must be respected at all costs. "

I guess we should've stayed out of Kuwait, Somalia, Rwanda and Bosnia and let them sort it all out. The western world is still going through a non-interventionist guilt phase; coupled with the fact that the west /will/ intervene on realpolitik grounds, but not for humanitarian ones. That is why we ended up in Kosovo despite Somalia: because of Bosnia.

But that was all the '90s.

Greg June 25, 2012 at 10:35 am

So what you are saying is the deaths don't matter. It is okay for the regime to kill his own, and take support from Russia and China, but it is bad for the west to support rebels.

It's all or nothing buddy, I'm sure the rebels aren't thrilled about the Russians sending helicopters and what not to the Regime. How do you figure it is fair for them to receive weapons and help from the Russians who have a base there, but it is so bad for us to support the rebels who have no heavy weapons but are being pounded by artillery tanks and rockets. That is perfectly fine in your convoluted world.

You don't have to agree with America, but try to use some reasoning and logic that you came up with on your own, instead of your brainwashed regurgitation of what your spy boss told you to write.

Tim June 25, 2012 at 12:16 pm

"Soverign is soverign. Auto-determination of the countries must be respected at all costs."???

Yeah, yeah… You go tell that to the Soviet Union, which decided to take all the former soviet satellite countries after "liberating" them. The biggest hypocrite here is the Russian. They still try to make a few bucks selling weapons to dictators and wonder why the people rescind their contracts after toppling the dictators.

STemplar June 25, 2012 at 12:21 pm

How many years did Syria occupy Lebanon?

blight_ June 25, 2012 at 10:44 am

With your logic, we were justified not supporting the Shia and Kurd rebels after '91. God willed the Republican Guard to "restore order".

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Woody June 27, 2012 at 1:48 am

What a big mouth from an Arab…he has no idea the ruin that he would be in for…..jeez…

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majr0d June 22, 2012 at 11:33 pm

Not believing this was a mistake. It was a message.

ANY support the rebels are getting is through Turkey. Assad is trying to intimidate the only nation through which supplies can get to the rebels.

Problem is Turkey is exercising a more independent and active foreign policy. Turkey IS going to retaliate. Probably not a full out intervention but Assad could be trying to provoke one as a short term solution to the rebels.

We will not get directly involved. Likely Nato won't either. More lead from behind action.

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Oppervlakkig June 23, 2012 at 5:38 am

Too bad for you your theory does not fit with the language the two countries are displaying. Turkey sort of admits the plane was flying in Syrian airspace. Syria says that when they realised it was a Turkish plane, they offered support for the S&R.

If Turkey was preparing for a retaliatory strike, it would have needed public support, which you don't create by admitting you may have been the one who was in the wrong. The rhetoric would have been very hostile, which it just isn't.

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majr0d June 23, 2012 at 2:23 pm

"Turkey's president says his country would take the "necessary" action against Syria, a day after Damascus said it had shot a Turkish military plane that had entered its air space.

Syria and Turkey have expelled each other's ambassadors and Syria has accused Turkey of supporting Syrian opposition and even allowing Syrian rebels to operate out of Turkish soil. Turkey strongly denies the allegations.

After a cross-border shooting by Syrian forces in April, Turkey said it would not tolerate any action that it deemed violating its security. The firing had left two refugees dead at a camp near the town of Kilis just inside Turkey."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/06/23/tur

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Sal June 22, 2012 at 11:48 pm

I guess the author forgot about the 2020 terminator upgrade.

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STemplar June 23, 2012 at 2:47 am

I would imagine Syrian IADS is on a hair trigger, concerned with the real possibility of a Balkans/Libyan style intervention. Given some of the ranges quoted I'm wondering if the the Turkish plane was or wasn't inside Syrian air space. It was close either way.

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Benjamin June 24, 2012 at 1:27 pm

i got to agree with the Turkish President. Regardless if the jet penetrated Syrian airspace it should have been warned first.

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majr0d June 24, 2012 at 3:06 pm

good point

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jamesb June 23, 2012 at 9:19 am

I'm gonna agree this a/c was probably close or slightly IN Syrian airspace….Probably low enough not to have any space to jig away from a missile shot…..You have to know the Turks have been doing this regularly coming closer and closer….

Turkey I image to put some hurt on the Syrian's…
But that's NOT the question…

The question is WHAT after that….
I would image the Turks don't want an ALL OUT shooting war…
And I believe neither does NATO or the West for $$$ and manpower reasons….

I wonder if they went right back to flyby's?

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jamesb June 23, 2012 at 9:20 am

I image COULD put some hurt on Syria……sorry

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Roland June 23, 2012 at 9:39 am

I think the Syrian rebels have the right to self defense so as the Turkish pilots.

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Roland June 23, 2012 at 9:40 am

I hope I said that right…

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So? June 23, 2012 at 10:26 am

Yeah, the same right as Syrian pilots in Turkish airspace.

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Cuneyt June 23, 2012 at 11:10 am

Not yet ignited. Why do you support my country? Because you like my brown eyes or to enlarge your lands? or to occupy another weak muslim country for democracy? I don't need your support democracy nor trillions. I am well aware of everything happenning around us, and globally. Its like repeating extended play. I have no problem with the American citizens or its patriotics. My problem is who governs them hidded behind scene.

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Sam June 23, 2012 at 1:05 pm

Here's an idea. Why don't we keep out of other people's business. Why do we always want to get into wars?
Syria is Israel's neighbor. Let them deal with it. They west gives Israel over 15billion dollars a year. Let them start earning it.

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navy259 June 23, 2012 at 11:47 pm

Ummmm really bad idea, as Iran is a close ally of Syria. And they hate Israel more than any other country on the planet.

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Skyepapa June 25, 2012 at 1:29 am

I would say Israel has demonstrated the hell out of their willingness and ability to defend themselves. This problem goes way beyond Israeli concerns.

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LEP June 23, 2012 at 1:57 pm

Turkey is pursuing its own geopolitical goals by targeting the undersea natural gas resources in the Eastern Mediterranean. Those do not stop at the exclusive economic zones of just Israel and Cyprus but may extend in Syrian sea space as well. These are the Turkish intentions and not the rescue of the innocent Syrian civilians that are being killed by the Assad regime. Nevertheless, the Turkish Air Force (THK) mission with one-two F-4E/RF-4E aircraft was an open provocation and replicated the almost weekly violations of Greek and Cypriot air space by armed THK aircraft. It is interesting to note that the THK command decided to carry out this mission while Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan was outside Turkey (the "independent thinking" of the Turkish military establishment). It is strange that the ECM-ESM-RWR equipment of the modernized F-4E/RF-4Es was not able to cope with the Syrian Soviet era SA-3 and SA-6 systems that have been modernized by the North Koreans.

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stoop June 24, 2012 at 6:57 am

NK doesn't have SA-6's moron.

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LEP June 24, 2012 at 6:14 pm

The North Koreans modernized the Syrian detection and fire control radar systems that serve the Syrian SA-2, SA-3, and SA-6 batteries. Whether the North Koreans have or do not have SA-6s is totally immaterial to your non-factually based assessment to what I presented.

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adamski June 24, 2012 at 9:17 am

I agree, it is very interesting the Syrians so effectively brought down a modernish western electronic warfare aircraft. Quite unexpected looking at the Turkish response, and again intersting he had to fly home from Brazil to take charge. Funny to see the western efforts to portray the defence of Syrian airspace as an aggressive act.

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Can D June 24, 2012 at 5:51 pm

Recce jets DO NOT have ECM turned on simply because that would light up the counter radars.

It was hilarious of the Syrians to say they realized it was a Turkish jet after they shot it down…

My money is that it had nothing to do with the Syrians but Russian naval base in the port town area events happened and Assad simply cant say that…

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LEP June 24, 2012 at 6:25 pm

I am wondering about the validity of your reply. Are you essentially saying that reconnaissance aircraft such as the RF-4E will approach a hostile area that is heavily defended by SAM batteries WITHOUT having their RWR-ECM turned on? Isn't this suicidal? I do not think that is how the USAF RF-C/Es operated while flying photoreconnaissance over North Vietnam in the 1960s and the 1970s. You also appear to underestimate the capabilities of the Syrians to manage the military equipment that they have. Fortunately, General Martin Dempsey, USA, Chief of Staff, put forward a different point of view while being interviewed in the Fareed Zacharia, GPS-CNN, news show a number of weeks ago.

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jamesb June 23, 2012 at 6:45 pm

you can bet NATO has been ALL over the 'incident' trying to figure out WHAT and HOW this happened…..

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jamesb June 23, 2012 at 7:42 pm

ok….
everyone can cool your heels….

from the LA Times….
Syrian and Turkish officials moved to tamp down tensions Saturday in the wake of a Syrian shoot-down of a Turkish jet, as the two nations mounted a joint rescue operation seeking two pilots still missing in the eastern Mediterranean.

The incident had the potential to escalate tensions between two neighboring countries, whose relations are already severely strained because of Turkey’s tacit support of the more than yearlong Syrian uprising against President Bashar Assad.

But there was a notable lack of bellicose rhetoric Saturday emanating from both capitals, Ankara and Damascus, underscoring the extreme sensitivity and explosive potential of the incident…. http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_now/2012/06

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George F. June 24, 2012 at 12:19 pm

RUMINT in Greece has it that there was a pair of RF-4s collecting intel on a Cypriot army exercise, they were given an order to do a low altitude fly-by off the Syrian coast as they were returning to base, to annoy the Syrians. Well the Syrians were annoyed alright, it is quite possible that AAA (not SAMs) got that bird, as it drifted too close to an important 'undisclosed' location, possibly a Pantsyr system.

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LEP June 25, 2012 at 10:08 am

Correct – The information is coming out from the press in the independent island Republic of Cyprus and concerns a major Cypriot National Guard exercise (Cyprus Army) which was being electronically monitored by the Turkish Air Force (the Turkish Army unlawfully occupies with 40,000 troops 36% of Cypriot territory). The Turkish RF-4E was shot down in the vicinity of the Syrian port city of Latakia which has very strong SAM air defenses. I doubt that conventional AAA brought down the Turkish aircraft although Syria claims that it was shot down at about 1 km (0.6 mi) from the Syrian coastline. Even the Russian mobile Pantsir A/A system that is used by the Syrians is a "mixed" gun/missile system.

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alexbacha June 24, 2012 at 5:55 pm

Os revolucionários devem ter todo o apoio do mundo civilizado. são verdadeiros heróis que deixaram de obedecer a um louco assassino e defender a honra do povo sírio. O mundo será bem melhor sem o Assad, a Rússia e a China e todos os malucos do mundo que ainda apoiam esse regime assassino.

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matheusdiasuk June 25, 2012 at 7:59 pm

Cara, posta em inglês. Esse é um forum em inglês, praticamente voltado ao publico de lingua inglesa.

Just telling him to write in English. Some brazilians unfortunately believes that everybody in the internet speaks portuguese. He said revolutionaries should have all the suport from international community because they are true heroes, fighting against the tyrannie. And the world would be far better without China and Russia.

Sorry for the bad translation.

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majr0d June 25, 2012 at 8:37 pm

Cool, thanks for translating.

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blight_ June 24, 2012 at 8:40 pm

Well, if the Turks want U-2's for "safer" overflights…?

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Michael Ross June 25, 2012 at 3:32 am

That they haven’t poured over the border and retaken this core Ottoman territory months ago from the pathetic descendants of France’s lackeys just goes to show what a bunch of numpties have replaced the once great Ottoman Empire. Wouldn’t have taken two weeks and by the time the world would have cottoned on it’d be a fait accompli. Instead they’d rather ‘cool tensions’. Jordan is just as cowardly, so much for their Greater Syriac aspirations.

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daj29152 June 25, 2012 at 8:08 am

F-4's rock!

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Tim June 25, 2012 at 12:23 pm

Who said the Turkish F-4 is actually Turkish? It could be a droned F-4 used to test Syrian air defence. Who made the drone… ahem… anyone?

Anyways, interesting how silly posters are now flocking here to thump down America. If they are Syrians supporting Assad, they must sense time is up… Anytime now, not a single Russian missile battery, or the Russian Navy for that matter, could save Assad and his miserable regime.

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Tribulationtime June 25, 2012 at 1:18 pm

it will be better nuke-bombing right now, all rogue-states though that it can be our destruction too III W W NOW!!!. Yes we bomb. Dr. strangelove

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majr0d June 25, 2012 at 1:41 pm

Just reported, Syria fires on Turkish search/rescue plane.

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Benjamin June 25, 2012 at 2:31 pm

That is the dumbest move the Syrians could make. At minimum the Turks are now definitely well within there rights to bomb the Syrian air defense network in that area and public opinion will definitely be in Turkey's favor

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majr0d June 25, 2012 at 6:15 pm

Just reported…

Asked if Turkey will insist on the activation of Article 5 at tomorrow's NATO meeting, Deputy PM Arinc said, "No doubt, Turkey has made necessary applications with NATO regarding Article 4 and Article 5."

"It should be known that within legality we will of course use all rights granted under international law until the end," Arinc said. "This also includes self-defense. This also includes retaliation many-fold. This includes all sanctions that can be applied to the aggressor state under international law. Turkey will not leave anything out on this issue. The public should be assured."

So much for those that thought this was minor or a mistake…

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Thunder350 June 25, 2012 at 3:36 pm

Turkey says one of their search and rescue planes was fired upon, but upon warning from the Turkish military Syria ceased fire. Turkish deputy prime minister also said the first plane was a mile out in international airspace when it was hit. He also said they will push for Article 4 and Article 5 recognition at the NATO meeting tomorrow (Tuesday).

Now lets see if the alliance can stand this test of their will power and support its allies.

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orly? June 25, 2012 at 5:50 pm

That whole Middle Eastern "Armageddon" thing is seeming more likely everytime the news comes up.

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Cuneyt June 25, 2012 at 9:10 pm

This is the 3rd world war sirenes. America is in the leading role that makes every movement to make chaos in Middle East. And we Turks are ready to position at the stage of this history and fight to the last drop of our bloods agaist whom have eye on our lands!

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majr0d June 25, 2012 at 10:15 pm

How is the US at fault? YOUR plane crossed into Syrian airspace. YOUR plane got shot down. Tomorrow YOUR country is going to ask for NATO's help and chaos in the middle east is our fault?

I think Syria is wrong. I also think you are just as wrong as they are to blame the US.

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Benjamin June 25, 2012 at 11:36 pm

Please, please show me factual proof not your opinon that the U.S. has any desire for Turkish lands? web addresses at least

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Cuneyt July 4, 2012 at 2:37 pm

You read it, we live it. You know what you read, we know what we lived.

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orly? July 5, 2012 at 10:23 pm

And we highly doubt you can even comprehend what's going on.

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blight_ July 6, 2012 at 10:36 am

"we"?

Unless Turkey is "under attack" like Syria, Libya…?

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Paul June 26, 2012 at 7:47 am

@Cuneyt is wrong about apportioning blame but he isn't wrong about the US dabbling in the Middle East. Britain's dissolution of Empire was flawed thanks to the interference by the US with Suez and the formation of Israel.

One only has to look at the Dubya/Bliar show in Iraq to see the depth of America's dabbling; never was WMD, but more that Saddam Hussein stuck two fingers up at the US administration. With America's oil also under Iraq it was obvious what was going to happen.

Luckily for Syria, their oil reserves are not great.

On another point as you all damn Assad for what he's doing just ask yourself what Obama, or in my case Cameron, would be doing if the same thing kicked off on their home grounds [we have both had past civil war too]. I suggest the same dirty thing.

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majr0d June 26, 2012 at 3:19 pm

Another "blame America/Britain first" nut.

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STemplar June 27, 2012 at 2:37 am

These things wouldn't happen in the US or UK because people are allowed a measure of say in their governments. We've also matured a little bit as a culture as well and by your logic if I thought your cave was better than mine I could bash your skull in and take and that's just tough luck for you. Grow up.

Also what I find so laughable in the anti Iraq war crowd and the ceaseless harping on oil as the motivation. It's no secret. The US's stated national security priority in the middle east for the last 40 years has always been the uninterrupted flow of oil.
You are making pronouncements like you've discovered some Area 51 mystery.

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Benjamin June 27, 2012 at 8:35 am

Gotta love conspiracy theorist. They could slip and fall and still find a way to blame the U.S. or Israel

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Cuneyt July 5, 2012 at 9:11 pm

Tell me what would you think if you find the helmet and boot of the pilot on the sea surface after the crash? 10 days later after the crash the pilot found dead. http://www.tsk.tr/3_basin_yayin_faaliyetleri/3_4_

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Oppervlakkig June 22, 2012 at 8:10 pm

No way Art 5 would be enacted by this incident. It is too minor. Most probable it is a stupid mistake by the Syrian air defences. I seriously don't see article 5 enacted by this.

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tiger June 25, 2012 at 1:08 pm

NATO will meet on Tuesday to discuss this matter.

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stanky/funky June 23, 2012 at 3:11 am

Are you ******* serious? Need I remind you that World War I was started over the death of an stinking obscure Archduke (Franz Ferdinand) It takes NOTHING to go to war. Countries will ALWAYS go to war. Only difference is they want to weigh risk vs reward.

But rest assured yungun. wars happen.

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Oppervlakkig June 23, 2012 at 5:12 am

Yes I am ****ing serious. Need I remind you the world has changed since WW 1? Ever heard of globalization, the UN and International Law? (To name just a few examples.) And are you really comparing this situation to the situation in 1914? Are you ****ing serious?

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Skyepapa June 24, 2012 at 1:15 am

While valuable assets, fighter pilots are not Archduke Ferdinand

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Benjamin June 23, 2012 at 11:48 am

I agree with you it will almost definitely not be enacted but Art. 5 would apply if it was enacted in this situation

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blight_ June 24, 2012 at 9:42 pm

Some things don't change. WW1 started with entangling alliances, otherwise it would've been Austria wailing on Serbia.

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orly? June 25, 2012 at 5:43 pm

I'm sorry Oppervlakkig, but some places still make war for crazy things.

This IS the Middle East we're talking about.

I think only Africa has it worse in some cases.

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dfor June 23, 2012 at 12:07 pm

I was speaking in legal terms. I don't think it will be enacted, but if it provides even the simplest pretext for any sort of intervention, Article 5 could help in bypassing the U.N. in the event that Western powers actually do take military action.

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Oppervlakkig June 23, 2012 at 6:25 pm

Yea ok, when spoken in legal terms you are absolutely right.

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Oppervlakkig June 23, 2012 at 6:26 pm

*I mean: we saw that Art 5 can be enacted after a terrorist attack, so legally this could absolutely be used.

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majr0d June 24, 2012 at 4:31 am

A friendly message from your local AQ affiliate.

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Brad June 24, 2012 at 9:58 am

haha, they think the free syria army is bad. Wait untill they taste the 2000 lbs JDAMS dropped from a B-2. These two Syrian posters should be first on the list to go. A bit of snooping around to track down where their I.P address is comming from and then a Tomohawk missile for each of them. All they have are Russian pea-shooters in response.

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SJE June 24, 2012 at 12:30 pm

You could but a big 'stache on and gold buttons on the flght suit

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blight_ June 24, 2012 at 10:57 pm

"And what would be if english, french or any other country take advantage in this? "

Uhh, they kind of did. Blockade runners from UK and France, along with the use of European ports to purchase and outfit commerce raiders?

That said, Britain and France didn't have enough to gain intervening for the Confederacy. They might've.

In any case, the USN's naval blockade proved that the navy was not the pipsqueak navy of 1812: even without ships of the line, the USN had a global presence; and ironclads would've made the RN's advantage of hull size and throw weight obsolete anyways.

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Ron June 26, 2012 at 11:47 am

American Civil War, 1861–1865, 625000 Americans died..
Bloddiest war we ever had.

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Woody June 26, 2012 at 3:35 pm

Does anyone know for sure if it was a surface to air missle or an air to air missle from a Syrian plane?….and to that BRIC person, you are a Turk, by that you arent smart enough to really know about America…so just shut up and fly your US made Phantoms and deal with it…

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BRIC Together June 25, 2012 at 2:44 pm

Ah this discussions is the proof.
Americans will never stop to make wars. Never.
Dont matter what we say, USA and american people always be the agressor.

So dont cry when more freedom fighters explode your buildings, all of you are responsible for this.

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STemplar June 25, 2012 at 2:49 pm

It was 30 years if you are curious.

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Benjamin June 25, 2012 at 2:56 pm

BRIC Together, you may want to read up on Syria's involvement in Lebanon's Civil War. Everything you argue Syria has done.

15K Syrians dead and climbing

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Woody June 26, 2012 at 3:47 pm

If our buildings "explode" your the first person we're going to look up Bric, so I would keep that kinda thing to yourself or you will find yourself being buried at sea like another muslim dog the US has taken care of…and you have no clue how "aggressive" the US could be if it really wanted to…

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ziv June 26, 2012 at 8:38 pm

Dude, I don't mean to laugh at you, but dang, you aren't the brightest bulb on the tree, are you? Unmanned F-4's? Turks have no issues with Syria? Eskimos and Huns and Iranians unite? Cats and dogs living together in bliss? Tuk, get back on your meds!

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Guest June 27, 2012 at 12:34 am

Thats a ..pretty widespread conspiracy that you are in on there.

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