Home » News » Around the Globe » Navy Contract Will Produce Missiles for Germany

Navy Contract Will Produce Missiles for Germany

by Matt Cox on March 29, 2013

The U.S. Navy is helping Germany arm its fleet with more than 400 anti-ship missile systems.

The Navy announced the March 29 $343,550,330 contract award to RAMSYS GmbH, Ottobrunn, Germany for the production of 445 Block 2 MK-44 Mod 4 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM) Guided Missile Round Pack (GMRP) All-Up-Rounds, according to a Defense Department contract award notice.

The RAM Guided Missile Weapon System is co-developed and co-produced under an International Cooperative Program between the United States and Federal Republic of Germany’s governments. RAM is a missile system designed to provide anti-ship missile defense for multiple ship platforms.

This contract will be funded 100 percent by the Federal Republic of Germany, according to the announcement.  Contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year.  Funding in the amount of $1,347,902 will be obligated at the time of the award.

The Naval Sea Systems Command in Washington, D.C., oversaw the contract, the result of an international agreement between the governments of the United States and Germany.

About 50 percent of the work will be performed in Tucson, Ariz., with help from facilities in Andover, Mass., and Rocket Center, West Virginia. The remainder of the work will be performed in Ottobrunn, Germany. The project is scheduled to be completed by January 2019.

Share |

{ 152 comments… read them below or add one }

USS ENTERPRISE March 29, 2013 at 3:11 pm

Dang. I can see the future now, where people will come an comment to testify to the evils of the defense contractor. I, though, predictably, support this. I wonder what particular ship the Germans want to equip.

Reply

blight_ March 29, 2013 at 6:04 pm

Indeed, since all of their frigates have RAM already.

Reply

Lance March 29, 2013 at 4:12 pm

America makes German missiles for Germany. Hitler must be rolling over in his grave LOL!!!!

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 29, 2013 at 6:10 pm

Eh, that statement is wrong on many levels. I know this sounds cliche, but it is true. The Nazis invaded Germany before Czechoslovakia, Poland, France, Russia, etc. Germany wasn't the enemy in the European theater, as Germany represents all the people of Germany. We were fighting Nazis.

Reply

Jacob March 29, 2013 at 7:06 pm

Well unfortunately, enough Germans accepted the Nazis as being their legitimate leaders, and so we had to fight the Germans to get to the Nazis.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 29, 2013 at 8:12 pm

Yes, but you will notice that after the war, the German military had many of the soldiers that once had a pledge to Hitler. Yes, we had to kill Germans to get to Nazis, and many Germans were Nazis, and vice versa. But the fact is that post World War I Germany was lost, confused, shocked, horrified, and hated. Seeing such a pragmatic leader rise to power would have been a relief. One final note: Hitler was Austrian.

Reply

Bill March 31, 2013 at 2:25 am

Agreed, not to mention that german men were forced to fight for the Nazis for fear both they and their families will be executed. Of which, many stood trial in western courts with the "following orders" alibi, which were shot down saying you could defy orders on moral grounds.

Between a rock and hard place much? You can also equate that to the current Bradley Manning debacle, ":defy orders on moral grounds" they told the germans, and then he gets charged for treason.

Its not at all nazi sympathizing, people just have to remember that not all the german conscripts were nazis.

matt March 29, 2013 at 8:34 pm

I lived in Germany 20 years ago and found German people to be very
conscious of the Nazi legacy and most were horrified by it. I once heard
in a bar in Berlin (in German, naturally) "I never want to hear 'Yankee go
home'! The Americans destroyed the Nazis!"

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 29, 2013 at 11:07 pm

Almost completely correct. USSR helped (they did the final push into Berlin) but they turned around and decimated East Germany. The British helped, but only using equipment and resources from Lend Lease. Kinda the same with Canada. So yeah, USA did take down and then brushed off Germany. Some Marshall Plan money, and West Germany turned into a powerhouse. And look at reunified Germany today. A close US ally.

Reply

Restore Palestine March 29, 2013 at 11:31 pm

It's not the Americans who beat Nazi Germany. It's the Soviets. By the time the US entered the war en masse, the momentum had been decisively reversed against the Axis powers. The outcome was already clear. Over 80% of Nazi soldiers were killed on the Eastern Front. The Soviet Union was the country that won the war in the European Theater, at the cost of about 27 million deaths.

That "the US won WWII" is pure US propaganda.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 29, 2013 at 11:45 pm

Oh god. I was just waiting for you to jump out with your propaganda. Okay, here we go. Wrong. You are just flat out wrong. The Russians, who had Nazis at their doorstep, "drove out" the Nazis after Hitler recalled his troops to the North Africa and to reinforce the English Channel. Let me ask you, what about the daylight bombing raids conducted by the US? Huh? How can you possibly ignore those raids. They clogged up the Nazi war machine.

blight_ March 29, 2013 at 11:54 pm

Yup. I'm on the fence on how much of a role American aid played in keeping the Soviets afloat. Remember the Soviet army lost almost all of its vehicles, guns, tanks and manpower of the pre-war Red Army. Whatever the Soviets scraped together from Moscow was probably a mix of Lend-Lease and extra Soviet equipment, either from beyond Moscow or over the Urals, or even the East, rushed to defend the capital region.

tmb2 March 30, 2013 at 3:46 am

The momentum had shifted to a relative stalemate on the Eastern Front when we invaded Africa. The Germans were losing sure, but if the war was just between the two of them it could have lasted a decade. Shortly after Torch and until the end of the war, Hitler had to constantly split his reinforcements. Also by this time, we were shipping millions of tons of supplies to the Soviets which allowed them to make larger and larger offensives and we were bombing German factories. Most of the infantry involved in encircling Stalingrad in 1943 were sent by train then walked the rest of the way. The troops which destroyed Army Group Center in July 1944 then pursued the Germans another 200 miles that month got there courtesy of General Motors. By the time we cleared Africa and prepared to invade France, Hitler had placed almost half a million troops there that could have been used against the Soviets.

STemplar March 30, 2013 at 6:08 pm

It wouldn't have accomplished what it did had the US and UK not done what they did in Africa, the middle east, and the Pacific. The Axis was defeated by the Allies because of what the Allies did in unison.

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 10:52 am

Please excuse my comments on here. My wannabe troll is using my name again. I am the real Restore Palestine. I'm just upset that our weak little Iran can't do anything but hide behind women and children.

riceball April 4, 2013 at 1:53 pm

Of course if it weren't for the US and a little something called Lend/Lease the Russians wouldn't have survived Hitler. Plus the Russians had the advantage of only having to fight on one front allowing them to stage and regroup and rearm in the East, safely out of range of any Axis bombers since the Japanese had little to no interest in going up against the Russians after their earlier war with them. Gemrany, on the other hand, was not only pressed in the East by the Russians but were also being pressed by the Western Allies in the West, in North Africa (although that was was mainly to help out Mussolini), and later on in Italy. If Germany wasn't so overextended and was able to focus most, or all, of its attention on Russia how do you think history would have turned out?

Let's also not forget that for all of the Russian people that Hitler's Germany killed during WW II, Uncle Joe probably killed more, or at least as many, as the Germans did. Then there was this little incident in Poland in the Katyn Forest, another little bit of Uncle Joe's handy work.

Tad March 30, 2013 at 1:31 am

Bunk. Sounds pretty. Sounds nice. Sounds sooo…. PC. Along the lines of, "Oooh, the Wehrmacht never did anything bad. It was only that naughty SS." Sorry, my friend, but your aircraft carrier ran aground on the shoals of historical truth.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 7:50 pm

I didn't say that. Or imply that. I am saying that the image the word "Nazi" conjures up is associated with the SS. Wehrmacht did some bad things, but technically, they weren't official members of the Nazi party. Its like saying a US soldier is Democratic because the president is Democratic.

Reply

Restore Palestine March 31, 2013 at 2:28 am

the US president is democratic? HaHaHa.

have you ever looked up the word "democratic" in the dictionary?

you freaking BS'er is really giving a bad name to other BS'ers.

Karl March 29, 2013 at 7:36 pm

That's just plain silly, and unfair to today's Germany. You might as well refer to Americans as slave-holding plantation owners. Just as untrue.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 29, 2013 at 8:13 pm

Precisely my point. I am especially angered when people think its funny to make fun of Nazis and their German connection. I have heard of stories of idiots who have actually went up to German exchange students, and openly make fun of the war. It is sick.

Reply

Restore Palestine March 30, 2013 at 10:47 am

A new category of BS from BS ENTERPRISE. Ha.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 10:57 am

Man, do you even read the my comments? Literally everything I said has to do with personal experience. Pretty sad.

Restore Palestine March 30, 2013 at 1:31 am

If America lets Germany make its own missiles, there is a 99% chance that over 95% of the missiles will work properly and not be susceptible to Disable Signals from the US military in the event of a conflict.

When the US is involved in manufacturing those missiles, there is a 99% chance that around 50% of the missiles will not work properly if at all.

Reply

blight_ March 30, 2013 at 9:14 am

Depends on the next time Germany and the US go to war. That said, the Germans are making half of the missiles, so as long as they mix production they should be fine, as long as the supply chain isn't contaminated.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 10:59 am

Odd. I remember reading that the Block 0 missiles had an accuracy rate of 95%, and it was US built. Read facts.

Reply

Frederic April 9, 2013 at 4:35 pm

Hitler is gone, that history

Reply

Rick March 29, 2013 at 8:19 pm

The contract is for rounds, not launchers.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 29, 2013 at 11:05 pm

Even so, why are they buying 400? I mean, they already have a lot of missiles when they both their launchers.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 29, 2013 at 11:05 pm

*bought

Reply

wpnexp April 2, 2013 at 8:04 pm

These are the Blk 2 variant, so they perform better than the original variants.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 2, 2013 at 8:20 pm

Well that does make sense. Hmmm. I wonder how much it would take to upgrade the Mark 1s, if possible.

blight_ March 30, 2013 at 12:34 am

Buy and hoard missiles. Use a few for live fire exercises.

Reply

elizzar March 30, 2013 at 12:16 pm

aren't these loaded in 8 round blocks? so 400 rounds = 50 reloads … even for say 6 frigates that's only 8 reloads each approx. so it's not a huge stockpile?

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 12:46 pm

Well yeah, but once again, you have to remember, when Germany bought the initial launchers, it came with missiles. Also, Germany isn't exactly fighting a war with its navy right now. So 8 reloads for each ship is pretty big. Maybe there is a new class of warship the Germans are making that we don't know about. Which would break a few rules.

Reply

drone March 31, 2013 at 6:28 pm

hehe is the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 still in force :D

wpnexp April 2, 2013 at 8:05 pm

At least 21 missiles on a standard size launcher (smaller variant launcers exist though).

Reply

Otto Hahn March 30, 2013 at 7:25 am

Its only to help US to keep their jobs, we dont really need this, especially for a 2019 timeframe. We are more worried about our gold reserves! I found LANCEs comment highly inappropiate and insulting and i guarantee, these comments could get you into huge trouble in Germany. ANY comment about Hitler or WW2 will let us rolleyes and increases your chance of being punched into your face. Americans dont want to get asked about blacks slavery, prohibition, killing indians, guantanamo bay, CampdenNJetc ALL of the time, do they?

Reply

Restore Palestine March 30, 2013 at 10:44 am

Many Americans and pseudo-Americans (wannabes like BS ENTERPRISE) have been so thoroughly brainwashed by propaganda that they actually believe those being tortured at Guantanamo Bay concentration camp are so-called "terrorists"

GW Bush & Dick Cheney promoted the illegal wars in Iraq & Afghanistan under false pretext. What percentage of the gullible Americans have wised up to the deceit and protested? Probably less 2%.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 11:05 am

Okay, I saw my name. I am here. Mr. Otto Hahn, I do sincerely apologize on behalf of every American here. Lance was being stupid. Ignore that idiot. Also, ignore this Palestinian refugee. He likes to make anti-American claims based on rumors, conspiracy theories, and propaganda.

Reply

Bman April 1, 2013 at 12:25 pm

You are truly a certifiable moron.

Reply

Bronco46 May 28, 2013 at 5:35 am

Before 1933 Germany 50 million people were alive; after 1933 those 50 million had died as a result of what Germany had wrought.
It's impossible to compete with numbers like those; unless maybe your Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot.

Reply

Bronco46 May 28, 2013 at 5:29 am

None of the things you listed, while bad, come up to the level of Adolf Hitler and a whole country being talking into turning a blind eye to the murder of more six million people who's only crime was being Jewish. So save the smug (typical) Germanic comments.

Reply

CarsonRay March 30, 2013 at 8:21 am

We "government "has lost their ever loving mind.What next?Give arms to North Korea ?

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 11:06 am

? What has Germany and NK have to do with each other? Germany is an ally. NK is DEFINITELY not.

Reply

William_C1 March 30, 2013 at 5:15 pm

In case you haven't been following world events of the past 60 years, Germany is no longer in the crazy world domination business, they are an ally.

Reply

drone March 31, 2013 at 6:26 pm

Not with panzers, but they're certainly buying up Europe through the back door ;)

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 31, 2013 at 9:16 pm

But it is peaceful. Mostly.

Reply

Belesari March 31, 2013 at 11:14 pm

Wow the stupid is in full force in this article. Of course most of it comes from "Restore Palestine" but then with a name like that we should expect so much…

Reply

STemplar March 31, 2013 at 11:59 pm

It is an odd conversation over a very dull procurement announcement article about ammo essentially.

Reply

crackedlenses April 1, 2013 at 12:26 am

There seems to have been a rash of odd conversations as of late.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 12:06 am

Hmm yes. And this is just a procurement article. Nothing really special. All thanks to a Nazi joke.

Reply

Belesari April 1, 2013 at 12:48 am

LOL yep seems so.

Reply

bob April 1, 2013 at 6:13 am

Stop all the nonsense about "protecting their families from the nazis". You do realize these people had a choice at the beggining right? They didn't make that choice and chose to be apart of a mass murdering system because things were going out "nicely". Who wouldn't want to put the blame on somebody else?

Absolutely pathetic you German sympathizing idiots.

Reply

Turgon April 1, 2013 at 10:39 am

Hey, the war ended 68 years ago. Get over it.

If you really wanted to point the genocide stick at someone every country in the world would be guilty. Are you going to blame Mongolia for killing millions because of Gangis Khan? Oh wait, Italians should be on the list too because of Julius Caesar slaying hundreds of thousands with his campaigns in Gaul. You go back far enough you realize genocide ain't nice but it also ain't new. How in the hell do you have the right to blame anyone.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 12:02 pm

Exactly. We don't sympathize the Nazi cause, but the German people who fell victim to it. After WWI, Germany was ruined. The German people needed a strong, powerful leader, and Hitler fit the bill. He stayed in power by using, of course, the SS, the Holocaust, and war. Yes, the German people could have chosen another leader. But all their other leaders were bringing down the already low Germany.

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 12:20 pm

BS as usual.

Did you know that the people AND the government of India are committing genocide by letting the population explosion get out of control?

India is doing nothing to stop the rat-like breeding within its borders, even though the environment has continued its rapid deterioration.

Why don't you write the Indian government a letter a day instead of posting worthless BS here.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 12:52 pm

I don't see what you are saying here. Genocide is a mass killing. You want genocide? Holocaust, North Korea, 9/11. That is genocide. The population of India can grow as much as it wants, so long as it can support it. And with the economy in India growing, I say that in 20 years, India will have a lot of problems sorted out. By the way, why are you all of a sudden focusing on India? What has that got to do with me?

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 11:57 am

Perhaps. But once again, it raises the question, how many missiles do they have, excluding this order? I am not trying to go against Germany, which is an ally and partner, but seriously, why some many missiles? I mean, its not exactly a country with millions of haters (NK, China, US, Iran, or rather, the Middle East).

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 12:24 pm

Send your BS to India please.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 12:49 pm

That doesn't even make any sense. Check your facts.

Reply

whatever April 2, 2013 at 11:11 pm

Restore Palestine is simply asking you to send your BS to India.

why would he need to check any facts?

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 3, 2013 at 8:52 pm

Restore Palestine, quit making up play friends. You obviously are "new" here, so please go do some reading.

William Millard April 1, 2013 at 4:18 pm

RAM is not an Anti-Ship Missle. You can call it an Anti-Anti-Ship Missle.

Reply

Restore Palestine April 2, 2013 at 12:39 am

It doesn't really matter what it's called because it doesn't really work in real combat.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 2, 2013 at 6:19 pm

Says the person who uses RPG-7s. Contrary to popular belief, a RPG will not sink a ship, primarily cause you have to get up close the ship.

Reply

whatever April 2, 2013 at 11:09 pm

What's the hallucination of the day, BS ENTERPRISE? You "heard" someone say something and "saw" someone use RPG-7s?

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 3, 2013 at 8:53 pm

I think you are the one hallucinating. Please re-read and figure it out. RPG-7S don't sink ships. There.

RJLipscomb April 1, 2013 at 9:07 pm

The US and Germany have been partners in defense technology and production for a very long time. This is just another example of the bond between the two countries.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 11:32 pm

Yeah. I mean, like when we were giving up weapons to Blighty in WWII, I am pretty sure that people thought that we were simply giving weapons to an enemy (Revolutionary War, War of 1812…) but we were helping an ally.

Reply

STemplar April 2, 2013 at 12:00 am

I've already said this has been a very odd thread. People actually expressing dismay over defense trade between the US and Germany today. They might be surprised to know that US industry was selling aviation fuel, aircraft parts and steel to Japan up until 1940ish….

Reply

d. kellogg April 2, 2013 at 11:40 am

Perhaps the dismay is rooted in some superstitious Third-Reich-will-last-for-a-thousand-years fear/paranoia too many folks adopted from reading too many WW2 fiction stories…?

Still, judging by where things have gone with MEADS, I wholly understand the concern (cold feet?) over the RAM missile deal with Germany.
However, RAM is considerably more proven and versatile (anti-missile, anti-air, even anti-surface in its latest Block iteration) than the vastly-more-expensive MEADS.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 2, 2013 at 6:18 pm

Yeah. Thousand years was a bit ambitious, to say the least. And yes, a very odd thread, but what that is kinda the trend that is being seen on some of the latest articles.

Mclee2009 April 7, 2013 at 3:10 pm

Make sure they're democrats…

Reply

Frederic Mulika April 9, 2013 at 4:33 pm

Germany is NATO , A friend to United States there is no need to worry.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 12:01 am

Lend Lease helped Britain and the USSR a lot. The Russians dang-nearly lost another World War (the fell into a civil war after WW I). And frankly, had the US no entered the war, Russia would have fallen, and Britain would still have craters in London. US played a strategic role in the European Theater. Possibly even more impressive was the Pacific Theater, where the US almost singlehandedly took out the Japs. US executed World War II with amazing determination, and came out a victor. Just like STALIN said, the US factories cranked out weapons quicker and more efficiently and quickly then anyone.

Reply

Restore Palestine March 30, 2013 at 12:44 am

Not much of a role I'd say.

A simple look at the map would reveal the kind of strategic depth the vast Soviet territory offered Stalin and his generals.

It was a fight between two big dumbasses in military affairs. The Soviets would have won far earlier and easier had Stalin listened to his generals.

Reply

blight_ March 30, 2013 at 12:33 am

From what I remember seeing, Soviet production shifted to combat equipment, supplemented by lend-lease trucks. It's nice when someone else can take care of your truck and prime mover production. Look at the Germans, who had nobody to take care of them: they were using HORSES as their primary prime movers. The fast arm of blitzkrieg was mechanized, the slow arms were still using horse-drawn wagons. And the fast arm was a hodgepodge of Czech, Polish and French tanks, trucks, etc.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 12:34 am

Yeah. Last time I checked, artillery killed more Germans than trucks. So yeah, Palestine, get out.

Reply

tmb2 March 30, 2013 at 3:24 am

The T-34 was an awesome piece of equipment, but the Red Army would not have been able to manuever on an operational or strategic level without the thousands of US-made trucks moving men and supplies. Before lend-lease got those numbers up, Soviet counterattacks were producing signficant losses on the Germans, but the Germans could check the overall offensive.

Reply

Restore Palestine March 30, 2013 at 12:35 am

Nice blend of regurgitated BS, delusional BS, and drug / alcohol-induced BS.

Practicing hard in preparation for your BS'ing career?

Reply

E_Khun March 30, 2013 at 7:30 am

And you were doing so well up to now. You had most of your facts straight although not much of the context.

But this sounds a bit dumb. Y'all do know how those artillery shells that killed those pesky germans got to those artillery tubes don't ya? So without those trucks…. Do I need to go on?

Just to rile you up a bit: In WW2 the british did all the fighting, the russians did all the dying and the americans did the logistics.

Reply

E_Khun March 30, 2013 at 7:41 am

Your comment got me thinking. If the red army hadn't collapsed like it did then Hitler might not have overextended his army like he did.

On the other hand. Any army he could have send would be overextended anyway. Russia is just to big and it only gets bigger and wider the further you go.

Reply

moronoxy??what? December 5, 2013 at 9:24 am

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah….and the war would not have started if someone had assassinated Hitler also. Dude, your just anti US due to your personal bias….and not quite that accurate with the facts either.

And NO….the Soviets would NOT have won that much easier.

Reply

blight_ March 30, 2013 at 8:20 am

I like to remember the minor nations: e.g, Poles did the fighting. They were there in '39 when the allies thought it would be a fun idea to let the Soviets and the Nazis tear them apart. Members of the army and refugees fled, and fought on until '45, as members of the west and coerced into the Soviet forces in the East.

And as we all know, the Italians and Romanians folded at Operation Uranus, causing the encirclement of Stalingrad.

Reply

Restore Palestine March 30, 2013 at 10:59 am

What? the brits did all the fighting? You mean fire fighting.

the Germans did all the fighting is more like it.

Winston Churchill, with all his drunken stupor, did quite a bit of sloganeering and propaganda for sure.

As for logistics from americans, all that means is this: they made off like pundits selling arms to the belligerents, and waited till the last possible moment before entering the war, when bloodiest battles were already over.

Reply

moronoxy??what? December 5, 2013 at 9:17 am

GOOD OLE AMERICAN INGENUITY!! I guess maybe Patton had something there with his speech about making the other "SOB" die for his country. :-)

Too bad its just not quite that simply though. The world could NOT have won WWII WITHOUT the US, but, the US would have had a VERY difficult time winning WWII without the help of everyone else. How soon do some forget that the Russians were in quite a bad space without US assistance to them. Yes, many of them died due to their proximity to the war, but, they COULD NOT have won the war without us. And it would have been longer, more costly, and more difficult for us to win without them. TEAM WORK…up until the end, when the Russians got greedy that is. :-) IMHO that is.

I think no matter what is said, the Restore Palestine guy will NEVER agree with the facts unless it is derogatory against the US….oh well….anti US people just like to blame the worlds ills on us. While we may not be perfect, the World would be a much DIFFERENT PLACE, and not a better one at that, without us. :-) BELIEVE THAT!

Reply

blight_ March 30, 2013 at 8:29 am

The Germans never had the logistical tail to sustain distant offensives. Their southern group had a tendril outside of Grozny, and if they had pushed a little farther (instead of stopping by Stalingrad, or simply encircling the place or moving on) they could've cut off Baku and the Persian Route (railroad north through Azerbijan from Iran).

The Soviets had terrible roads, and horses, let alone trucks probably would've suffered. I wonder how the Soviets did it: betting they paved special military roads just for them, and did it as part of the counter-attack.

Suvurov, as part of Inside the Soviet Army suggests just this, in addition to implying that the Soviets had deliberately terrible maps made to confuse invaders.

Reply

E_Khun March 30, 2013 at 8:45 am

You disappoint me Blight. You're ruining a perfectly good saturday afternoon troll I set up with facts and Poland.

The only reason for Poland is that nobody wants Russia and Germany to share a border.

You know what a relatively small shared border did with France and Germany, you fact and Poland loving person?

Admittedly the Elzas has coal and Poland only has Poles and Wodka. Lots of Wodka. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Except before 11 am. Which it isn't.

Reply

E_Khun March 30, 2013 at 9:11 am

The Germans were very railroad based and all logistical movement was west-east. Just like all what russians called roads. There was little north-south movement possible so the 3 german fronts couldn't support each other. And with their lowest army group on the way out of Russia towards Persia.

You might say that the germans were fighting a 5-front war at the time of Stalingrad. 6 fronts if you count the allied air offensive (which wasn't in full swing at that time).

Great point about soviet logistics. I'd like to read up on that. Never really thought about it, which is quite stupid if you think about the scale of their offensives.

Reply

icedrake April 3, 2013 at 11:45 am

You were doing so well until the second paragraph, Blight! What do you mean "had" terrible roads?

(apparently posting a link triggers an auto-delete script, but put this into google image search and you'll see plenty of examples: россия дороги )

Reply

blight_ March 30, 2013 at 9:12 am

there's a 400 comment long trollfest about Iran that keeps on truckin'…

Blame WW2 on Poland or something, or deny the Holocaust. That always gets people going.

Reply

E_Khun March 30, 2013 at 10:15 am

In my current mood I'd probably blame the holocaust on the Poles (Auschwitz, Warsaw; the evidence is overwhelming) so I think I'll stay here where I'm safe. :-)

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 10:53 am

Oh, so you were rooting for me until that last comment. Ah well. The Poles were the final straw for the allies. When they were invaded, Britain and the ill-fated France started fighting. Russia wouldn't contend with Hitler for some time.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 10:54 am

Exactly. And those tanks needed steel, and materials. Also, you need air support and other things made by the US in WWII.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 10:56 am

Well, Hitler wasn't exactly known for his intellect. This same man turned the ME-262 into a bomber, which was a mistake as the aircraft could have saved his "Fortress Europa" can maybe even expand it.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 11:02 am

Hitler was ambitious, so he SERIOUSLY overstretched his forces. He had men in North Africa, Italy, coast of France, of course the Russian front, in the air (Battle of Britain) and anywhere in between. Also, a lot of German manufacturing relied on fuel form captured provinces and lands. So when these areas were taken by US/British forces, then the Germans had a fuel shortage. Their refineries were bombed. Literally factories of anything and everything were beat into submission. So yeah, the transport lines to the Russian front was bad. But, if anything, their manufacturing department was worse.

Reply

moronoxy??what? December 5, 2013 at 9:32 am

Stalin supposedly had a saying about " QUANTITY HAS ITS OWN QUAILATATIVE EFFECT" meaning, they may not have had the quality ( and best thinking :-) but they sure had a lot of men to throw at the Germans. In the early part of the war, they did not even have 1 rifle per man.

And when they moved their factories to the mountains, well, how did they get there…American trucks….maybe :-)

Reply

E_Khun March 30, 2013 at 11:33 am

That last bit was true in WW1. Not so much in WW2.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 12:09 pm

Bloodiest battles? Okinawa. In fact, the entire island hopping campaign in the Pacific was bloody. Battle of the Bulge. Bloody. The daylight bombing raids. Bloody. In fact, US involvement came in DURING the bloody bits. Oh, I almost forgot. FREAKING D-DAY. I agree with Brits doing all the fighting. They ALWAYS forget the US involvement in the war. They were courageous, hanging out in there. But once again, they couldn't have without US help.

Reply

E_Khun March 30, 2013 at 11:40 am

I wasn't rooting for or against you. I was just teasing your overly patriotic view a bit.

Try to view things from different perspectives. That might be easier for someone not living in a superpower though.

Reply

E_Khun March 30, 2013 at 11:54 am

Their manufacturing output increased every month until the very end of the war. Despite the air campaign.

On fuel you're right. The attack on Stalingrad was really a sideshow to the bigger move towards the Persian oil fields.

They got sucked into North Africa because Hitler wanted to save Mussolini's face.

And you could argue that the whole France/Lowlands thing actually freed up troops that otherwise would have needed to protect the western border. If it wasn't for that drunken lecher Churchill the English might very well have dropped out of the war after the battle of France.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 12:02 pm

Nope. Just explaining a little of World War II.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 12:05 pm

Okay. I understand your truck point. Being patriotic and being overly patriotic are completely different. I didn't like the US actions in Vietnam, or some of the action in the Middle East, among a few others. Its just that the reasons that tick me off aren't usually mentioned. Once again, I see your point; I didn't quite understand what you were saying until I re-read your post.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 12:16 pm

Well yeah. Albert Speer was ordered to increase production by a lot near the end. But the weapons didn't amount to much. I specifically remember reading about the attack on the Ball Bearing factory in the Rhineland, I believe. So while the Germans were trying to crank out more weapons like the Vengeance series of advanced missiles and rockets (V-1 and V-2), it didn't really go anywhere. Its kinda like Japan and their last carriers. They entered in to late, and ended up as a scrap heap in Tokyo Harbor. On the French lowlands thing, my main argument is that Nazi forces were their to do carry out the invasion of England. They were, thankfully, pestered by the French resistance.

Reply

E_Khun March 30, 2013 at 12:44 pm

Maybe I should have said "America centric view" instead of overly patriotic. No matter.

I was looking for this quote earlier in response to your "artillery killed more germans" post:

"The Jeep, the Dakota airplane, and the landing craft were the three tools that won the war."
General Dwight Eisenhower, Allied Supreme Commander, Europe.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 12:48 pm

Yeah, I am going to give this one to you. Not point in arguing with Eisenhower. When I said artillery, I mean the whole kit and caboodle, the launcher and its respective ammunition.

Reply

E_Khun March 30, 2013 at 12:58 pm

Now you're starting to slip.

The Vergeltungs (sorry, I'm not a teacher but I had to correct you) weapons were a distraction. No more. Just like most of those high techy things that they were famous for.

The weapons that mattered were the simple Stug III, Panzer IV and Me-109/FW-190.

Good point about ball bearings but they got most of them from neutral Sweden. Good old British politicking finally stopped that.

They were in France to knock the French out of the war so they could concentrate on Russia. I've read (sorry, no sources yet) that Hitler more or less hoped that they could come to an agreement with England. Historically England and Germany have mostly been allies. As were France and Russia. And Churchill was even more anti-Red then anti-Nazi.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 1:09 pm

Okay, firstly, I acknowledge the mistake about the V- weapon's name. In the English speaking world, its easier to say (and spell) Vengeance then Vergultungs. I just let that slip a bit. To add to your list of destructive "simple weapons" the Stuka. The Sweds were a bit annoying in the war, as they pretend they were neutral, but, as you pointed out, they helped out the Nazis. And taking France had more to do then freeing up soldiers to take Russia. If Hitler wanted to invade Blighty (which he did) he needed a good sea port. France's Calais for starters wouldn't be bad. I wouldn't say that Britain and Germany have always been allies. World War I several strained relations, at best. And WW I had a direct impact on WWII. The only reason why the Russians were "allies" with the US and Britain and whoever else was because they didn't want to fall into another civil war (like during WWI). Though really, I think having an army just a few miles away from your capital is just as bad.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 1:10 pm

Ach, my post before this was deleted. ERGH.

Reply

E_Khun March 30, 2013 at 1:54 pm

Hitler really wasn't that interested in England except for getting it out of the war.

- He was an anglophile and admired the english for their empire and culture.

- He hated France and blamed them for the Versailles treaty.

- In Mein Kampf (I've only read excerpts of the filthy (and boring) thing) he only refers to lebensraum in the east.

When I said historically I meant before the 20th century. And I didn't mean super close allies, more like shared interests. Which is really the only thing a state should have.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 30, 2013 at 2:36 pm

Well, I am not to sure of warfare in Europe before the 20th century. Like I said, Hitler said the happiest day of his life was when he signed a non-agression act with Britain. While he may have admired the British people, he wasn't afraid to kill them. Bombing London was a classic example. As for not having super close allies, eh, eh, uh, I don't know about that. Without allies, the Cold War would have been, well, hot.

Reply

Restore Palestine March 31, 2013 at 2:23 am

"what the Allies did in unison"?

Unison your A S S!! The US didn't even declare war on Axis Powers until Japan bombed Pearl Harbor.

The Soviets decimated 80% of the Nazi forces. No amount of propaganda and lies from BS ENTERPRISE and you can change it.

The US was good at practicing slavery and selling arms to the belligerents at the time. As for fighting in a war, the US was better at avoiding it than anything else. HaHa.

I just wish the US would have kept that tradition a little longer, especially with smaller, weaker countries.

Reply

STemplar March 31, 2013 at 4:16 am

Hey kookie, does the group home staff know you are on the computer? Oh and by the way, ARABIAN GULF!!!! Tool.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 31, 2013 at 11:34 am

Alright, BS Palestine. First of all, slavery was abolished in the US WELL before the 20th century, after the civil war. Selling weapons to belligerents. We sold arms to your ever to beloved USSR. So in a way, you just insulted your self. The Soviets, yes, they did do a lot of damage. But not without the help of the US Lend Lease program. Also, when Hitler diverted troops from the Northern front to help in Africa, Italy, and eventually, France, the Soviets weren't fighting the might of the Hitler's army; just part of it.

Reply

moronoxy??what? December 5, 2013 at 9:35 am

RESTORE PALESTINE….DUDE….what book store do you get your info from….a little Russian one? Or a Chinese book store….:-)

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 31, 2013 at 11:36 am

You clearly do not understand the US election system. There are two (main) parties, or groups of political figures, that go head to head in elections for presidency (and all sorts of other chairs in Congress). They two parties are called the Republicans and the DEMOCRATS. President Obama is a Democrat. I was using this as an example. Keep your BS to yourself.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE March 31, 2013 at 9:16 pm

I didn't mean actual rules like in a treaty. I meant that if Germany is making top secret warships, they are A)not doing a good job at hiding the weapon systems B)are repeating history (Hitler's submarine force, the Bismarck, etc).

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 12:58 am

BS as usual, a bit too dull. I suggest you throw in more lies and hallucinations. You might need to double up on your crack intake to get more of the latter.

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 1:01 am

Nothing but BS. Amazingly consistent.

Assembly line production, eh?

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 1:38 am

is ARABIAN GULF a new name your Arabian master is using for your asscrack?

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 1:49 am

So you've got your own BS definition for the word "democratic" in your BS ENTERPRISE Dictionary. I see.

Indians can be so creative. What an eye opener.

Reply

STemplar April 1, 2013 at 2:32 am

Nope it's the new name for what used to be called the Persian Gulf. We decided to rename it.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 11:51 am

Wow. Go read a history book. That is, if you can read facts.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 11:52 am

I do even know where to begin. Go read something. Anything. It will do you good.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 11:54 am

You STILL don't get it. It has nothing to do with the dictionary definition. Look it up. Stop coming to this site and lying. Bye.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 11:59 am

Yeah, that kind of behavior is also quite depressing. Japan was interesting in WWII as the actual person who wanted all this to happen, Emperor Hirohito, was never charged. He stayed as a "figurehead" type person. Really, Japan has suffered enough; atomic bombs, Flight 007, that mass attack using chemical weapons on their subways, godzilla, the last Earthquake, among others.

Reply

belesari April 1, 2013 at 4:06 pm

I never heard a single person say a thing like that.

You must hang out with some other brand of rednecks and gun nuts, or maybe your full of shit.

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 12:31 pm

oh, I didn't realize the Persians had once owned your asscrack as well. So who's the better owner, the Persians or the Arabs?

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 1:19 pm

NICE Geno-BS, BS ENTERPRISE.

Of course 9/11 was no genocide; nor was N.Korea. But then your mental illness doesn't care about standard definitions of words that normal people use. Given the large number of Jews present in Europe, America and the ME, it can't be said that the Holocaust was much of a genocide either.

Those closest thing to genocide has been the systematic mass killing of native American "Indians" by European Immigrants (first the Spaniards, and then the Anglo-Americans).

You can take it to the bank, BS ENTERPRISE.

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 1:20 pm

meant to say "The closest thing …"

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 3:33 pm

Oh for gods sake. The holocaust wasn't Genocide? ??????! Estimates of the death toll range from 15 to 26 MILLION deaths. If that isn't at least an ATTEMPT at genocide (which is wasn't cause it was genocide) then what in your Allah's name was? Native Americans suffered through a genocide. 9/11 may have not been genocide, but it was a mass death. And how can you say that NK hasn't tried to commit Genocide? Swearing at the US, and operating Gulags is not enough for you? BS your self son, you don't know evil.

Reply

STemplar April 1, 2013 at 1:49 pm

Arabian Gulf.

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 2:11 pm

HaHa. I'm glad you are at least admitting that it has nothing to do with the dictionary definition.

But what about the "Look it up"? You want me to look it up in YOUR BS ENTERPRISE dictionary?

What voices are you hearing now?

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 3:28 pm

Nice contradiction on your part. You first say that "Democrat" in the US government is not in the dictionary, and then you say that the dictionary is terrible. By the way, chances are that the ENGLISH dictionary you are fielding is American made, so yeah.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 3:36 pm

Nice. Keep at it. It will snap soon, "Restore Palestine"

Reply

orly? April 1, 2013 at 6:52 pm

Its called the internet.

There's enough ignorance on Facebook for both of us.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 7:57 pm

Hey, ever read a post from a little person by the name of "Restore Palestine"?

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 7:21 pm

If you would take your medications on time, you wouldn't be hearing those voices or hallucinating about nonexistent history lectures, documentaries or books, at least not as often.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 7:56 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen, you "Restore Palestine" has won the award for the most misinformed, dumbest person of the year. How can you say that the Holocaust or any of the other events I have told you were faked? Anti-American, maybe. Dumb, definitely.

Reply

Turgon April 1, 2013 at 9:30 pm

Restore Palestine, you're such a troll.

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 8:37 pm

If you want to stop your hallucinations, you must take your medications in full and on time. Somehow I think you actually enjoy experiencing hallucinations, which give you the material for your never-ending BS bombing runs on this board.

You think this is Pearl Harbor, don't you?

Freaking schizo BS'er.

Reply

Restore Palestine April 1, 2013 at 8:39 pm

on the internet? you mean hallucinatory BS posted by schizos like BS ENTERPRISE?

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 9:05 pm

What has Pearl Harbor have to do with anything? Pearl Harbor was a terrible US defeat, and frankly, we should have seen it coming. But after Pearl Harbor, Japan started to fall apart, piece by piece. All thanks to the US. NO thanks to the USSR.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 1, 2013 at 9:06 pm

I think you should rephrase that to say: you mean hallucinatory BS posted by schizos like BS Restore Palestine. You haven't gotten a single fact right yet. Its kinda sad.

Reply

whatever April 2, 2013 at 11:53 pm

this is going to be difficult to understand for a schizophrenic like you but I'll try.

Restore Palestine is saying that you are bombing this forum with your endless BS posts as if you were attacking Pearl Harbor.

all thanks to your schizophrenic hallucinations.

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 3, 2013 at 8:51 pm

Oh great, another one of these folks. BS posts? Go do some reading on my other comments.

Reply

whatever April 4, 2013 at 1:01 am

I assure you i'm not Restore Palestine. I just find it entertaining to probe into the mental state of mentals.

how old are you?

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 4, 2013 at 2:03 pm

Hmm yes. Soviets needed stuff, and the stuff was given by the US. People always forget that bit.

Reply

moronoxy??what? December 5, 2013 at 9:39 am

You are so right, and people forget about good ole UNCLE JOE and how well he ahhhh….ummmmm….TOOK CARE OF HIS PEOPLE!! Hahahaahahaha he DID kill more of them than Hitler did…

Reply

USS ENTERPRISE April 4, 2013 at 2:04 pm

"Mental state" or mental people. Hmph. I didn't know this was Inception.

Reply

moronoxy??what? December 5, 2013 at 9:21 am

Many forget that we supplied the Russians with hundreds of planes, of ALL types, fighters, transports, etc, in the beginning of the war, prior to their build up. The Bell 39 (?) Cobra was a perfect example. We did not like the plane due to being slow, but that big cannon in the nose, sure killed a bunch of German tanks and trucks, probably a few horses also. :-)

Reply

Leave a Comment

Previous post:

Next post: