Home » Air » South Korea Air Defense Zone Rattles China

South Korea Air Defense Zone Rattles China

by Richard Sisk on December 10, 2013

East China SeaChina expressed “regret” Monday over South Korea’s declaration of an air defense zone overlapping Beijing’s in the latest ratcheting up of tensions over territorial disputes involving Japan, China and South Korea that the U.S. has been seeking to tamp down.

China urged Seoul to proceed “safely and cautiously” in dealing with the overlap from “South Korea’s expansion of its air defense identification zone,” said Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei.

South Korea caught Beijing and Tokyo off guard Sunday with the announcement that Seoul’s existing air defense zone was being expanded about 150 miles to the south to include a submerged reef called Ieodo in South Korea and Suyan Rock in China.

Maj. Gen. Chang Hyok, a senior South Korean Defense Ministry official, said that in declaring the zone “our top priority is to prevent accidental military clashes in the area.”

The expansion meant that the air zones declared by South Korea, Japan and China over the East China Sea now all overlap. The Japanese and Chinese zones both include space over disputed islets called the Senkaku by Japan and Diaoyu by China.

Unlike the air defense zone announced by China two weeks ago, the South Korean zone will not affect civilian flights.

China angered its neighbors in declaring its own zone on Nov. 23 by ordering all military and commercial flights entering the zone to file flight plans and identify themselves or face possible “emergency measures.”

The U.S. immediately signaled that it would not recognize the Chinese zone by flying two B-52 bombers based in Guam through the Chinese zone without giving notification.

The air zone disputes dominated Vice President Joe Biden’s talks last week in Japan, China and South Korea.

“China’s recent and sudden announcement of the establishment of a new air defense identification zone has, to state the obvious, caused significant apprehension in the region,” Biden told a meeting of U.S. business executives in Beijing.

“The United States has a profound stake in what happens here because we need, and we are, and we will remain a Pacific power diplomatically, economically and militarily,” Biden said.

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{ 121 comments… read them below or add one }

PolicyWonk December 10, 2013 at 10:20 am

Well China really screwed up when they announced their "air defense zone". If they have a diplomatic strategy of any kind they've been unable to articulate it with any coherence. This suggests that there is no coordinated effort on the part of the Chinese government, which increases the danger something could go very wrong.

China has a historical chip on its shoulder as a result of being exploited in the past, and the conservatives think that with China's military build up they can start settling scores.

I doubt they're being realistic, unless they want to take a chance on starting a regional war that would involve Japan and S. Korea, which would require in turn the USA to live up to its treaty obligations.

It seems that its time for China to smarten up – because the conservative faction needs to get a grip on reality before they start something they cannot control.

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Chuck December 10, 2013 at 11:12 am

Absolutely.

China is neither militarily nor economically positioned to come out of such a scuffle on top. In fact, acting now merely ensures that they cannot win this game. Why didn't they just let the stalemate hold for another decade or two, when they might actually have the hard and soft power to win? People often talk about how China is supposed to be good at playing the long game. Apparently not.

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oblatt2 December 10, 2013 at 11:29 am

China plays the long game but we are masters of claiming a loss is really what we wanted all along. Looks like another win win LOL.

China got what it wanted. Nobody is even suggesting that the ADIZ will be removed and in fact the US government is rushing around trying to get everyone not to overreact.

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blight_ December 10, 2013 at 3:28 pm

Good point. Of course, throwing ADIZ back in their face is the only other option, other than losing face.

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Atomic Walrus December 11, 2013 at 7:38 pm

If everybody simply ignores China's ADIZ, the net effect will be to deny international legitimacy to the claim and/or force China to waste resources identifying any aircraft entering the zone. ADIZ is not the same as territorial airspace. If China wants to dedicate fighters to flying out and eyeballing every airliner flying through the international airspace included in their ADIZ, let them fill their boots.

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blight_ December 12, 2013 at 7:03 am

Do any civilian aircraft fly through the area?

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STemplar December 12, 2013 at 9:24 am

A vast number I'm sure. That's part of the outrage, a ton fly through not even going to China and that's one of the issues. Apart from the sovereignty grab, is that the US nor anyone expects planes not destined for their airspace to file flight plans with them.

Mitch S. December 10, 2013 at 11:58 am

Makes me wonder if this isn't a result of internal power struggles.
Perhaps Xi trying to strengthen his standing with the military.

I kinda like what S. Korea did. It sends China a message that this isn't just about old grudges between China and Japan (after all Korea has some common ground with China when it comes to old scores with Japan).

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Really? December 20, 2013 at 2:02 pm

Really? Internal power struggles?

You've got to stop reading craps out of RAND, the CFR, Foreign Affairs, the Diplomat, or other self-proclaimed political or military think-tanks.

China's move means only one thing: its military has become strong enough to take on the US, NATO, Japan, Korea, and Taiwan in any scale of military conflict within the first island chain.

I'll wager 100 bucks that the ADIZ is there to stay. China will give Japan and the US some time to make a scene and save face, but it will gradually step up enforcement. We can revisit this in 6 months to a year, and see who's right.

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blight_ December 10, 2013 at 12:16 pm

Way to open Pandora's Box, amirite?

If anything, the Asian countries could genuinely profit from a mutual security arrangement, to maintain the option of independence from the United States, Europe, Russia, and other traditional power-players. Unfortunately, they are all sour and cynical from alternating turns as victim and victimizer (though Korea has historically been the victim of either China or Japan).

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Chuckiechan Chan December 10, 2013 at 12:18 pm

Hopefully, a new president with some spine will start seeking economic damages on imports made from stolen technology.

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Arthur Savard December 10, 2013 at 12:47 pm

PW …..

Not certain the civilian side of the playpen, after years of buying off the military with more and more toys, hasn't lost the bubble and the uniforms are a tad off of the reservation.

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Lynn December 10, 2013 at 10:34 pm

Let's not forget who holds most of our debt, whereas South Korea is a beneficiary of it as well—not smart to be ticking off our largest benefactor when our economy is in shambles.

We shouldn't be involving ourselves in these territorial issues as we have much bigger problems here at home that must be attended to. Quite frankly I'm sick and tired of our country mucking around in everyone else's back yard while neglecting our own. Let China, Japan and S. Korea sort it out for themselves.

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STemplar December 10, 2013 at 11:11 pm

The US Federal reserve is by far and away the largest holder of US debt.

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Auyong Ah Meng December 10, 2013 at 11:24 pm

LOL…

Wonder what will happen when Taiwan too decide to expand its current ADZ to the north too over those "disputed" islands which they are also claiming…

zzz

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Pjkace70 December 11, 2013 at 12:48 am

To bad most of America. Is Blind to that, STemplar

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hyper inflation December 11, 2013 at 11:46 am

STemplar, You don't understand the damning implications of the statement because you don't know what F.R. really is.

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STemplar December 12, 2013 at 12:02 pm

I made no observation about the negative aspects of debt, I just stated a fact which is the US Fed owns the majority of US debt so I'm not sure how you can draw a conclusion otherwise.

guest December 18, 2013 at 4:12 am

"The US Federal reserve is by far and away the largest holder of US debt."

STemplar,

Sounds like you are bragging about it. LOL!!!!! Really sad.

You even had 7 or more equally clueless readers giving you a thumbs-up. Hard to blame foreigners ridiculing Americans' lack of basic knowledge.

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davec December 11, 2013 at 11:08 am

As noted below, the Fed is the largest holder of government debt. However, since a sizeable chunk of China's investments is in U.S. debt, it too has to be careful. In addition, a major portion of their exports are to the U.S. Consequently, they cannot afford to have the U.S. economy tank, since that would damage or destroy a significant portion of their economy. And, any shooting match would probably lead to our repudiation of the debt, as well as cessation of imports. So, ironically, their holding our debt is kind of a two-edged sword.

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Matt December 13, 2013 at 1:13 pm

Krugman calls it the Chinese dollar trap. Lack of strategic vision caused them to stumble into it.

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guest December 17, 2013 at 7:03 pm

US import of Chinese products is nowhere as important to China as you think, because it's purchased with money borrowed from China in the first place. The US share of China's global import-export trade has been on the decline due to China's rapidly expanding trade with ASEAN, African and South American countries.

The only edge China is missing right now is a blue water navy capable to enforcing its commercial rights and interests in case of a major fraud or fraudulent default by the US.

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Guest December 19, 2013 at 1:47 pm

PolicyWonk, you obviously are confused about ADIZ (identification zone) and national air space.

Did you say anything when Japan, Korea, and US created ADIZ's? (Did you know that Japan had its own ADIZ's?)

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Dfens December 10, 2013 at 11:24 am

Remember how they promised us that by giving China "most favored nation" trade status this would make us best friends? Look at how well that is working out for us. We now have an enemy of our own making and at the same time we have emasculated out nation's industrial might. Add to that the fact that we are in the process of emasculating our nations military might through procurement practices that are ignorant beyond belief, and we have a true recipe for disaster looming. Would we seriously go to war with China over South Korea's claim to some uninhabited islands? Of course we wouldn't. China will take Taiwan without ever firing a shot and we will stand by and watch. It is entirely possible they might take South Korea and Japan, but at least those two countries will fight back, for a little while. We will stand on the sidelines and wring our hands because we don't have the stones to get involved in a real war, nor do we have the weapons.

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blight_ December 10, 2013 at 12:17 pm

We will probably supply the South Koreans, but I'm not sure of the extent of American military involvement.

Suffice to say, if we pulled out of the ROK we probably would not go back in again.

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Dfens December 11, 2013 at 1:50 pm

We can't even respond to an act of aggression by China until they've already put millions of troops in place, and then what are we going to do, nuke S Korea, nuke Japan? I know, we can fight them conventionally with our 20 stealth bombers and 180 F-22s. What a joke.

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Paulson December 13, 2013 at 6:59 am

We can respond before they've put millions of troops in place. A strongly worded criticism or protest can be drafted within 24 hours by the advisers at the White House, and within a week by literate members of Congress.

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What December 10, 2013 at 1:55 pm

Ruff

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Hector Q December 11, 2013 at 8:19 am

I could see China taking Taiwan without a shot, but I don't see them trying to take South Korea and Japan. Do you think they want to occupy countries of 50 million and 125 million? If China actually invaded S. Korea and Japan, it would become a pariah state overnight and would be subject to a lot of sanctions trade sanctions. That would be very bad for its export-driven economy. (See my next comment for the remainder, the system wouldn't let me post it all as on comment…)

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Hector Q December 11, 2013 at 8:19 am

(this is a continuation of my previous comment)

From what I've read, the Chinese government's number one convern is with constant growth. This is because of its large population and historical experiences with starvation. The government feels it needs a large rate of growth to make sure all the mouths are fed and to prevent internal instability.

Yes, China is also interested in pursuit of natural resources, hence the current situation over these islands as oil lies underwater. The Chinese government also finds it convenient to whip up anti-Japanese sentiment at home from time to time to create more solidarity and to cause a distraction from some domestic issues. China's aggresion with respect to these islands, including the establishiment of the air defense zone, serves these purposes. However, the Chinese government is not going to push the issue to far by going to war with anybody because the consequences for its economy would be utterly disasterous.

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davec December 11, 2013 at 11:12 am

I wish you were 100 % correct. However, as many news outlets (e.g., the Economist) have reported, there is a large ultra-nationalist faction in China, particularly in the PLA. These ultra-nationalist hawks are more concerned with reclaiming China's place as a great power and the resurgence of the Middle Kingdom than with economic realities. There have been articles in main-stream publications by the hawks about the Chinese right to dominate its neighbors adnd desireability/necessity of a war with the U.S., which they think they can win.

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Brian Carr December 11, 2013 at 1:34 pm

All China needs is the equivalent of the Bush/Cheney team to whip the controlled media populace into believe the big bad Americans are denying the Chinese to use their islands (any they deem theirs). During the 1800s, our government change public opinion about the noble red Indian to the ignorant savage to justify taking their land, Bush/Cheney used a similar approach to incite the general population that Iraq's imaginary WMD were linked to 9/11 to invade Iraq for their land (oil). If China chooses to, they can use can use a similar logic to justify why those islands (precious rare earth metals) should be their's and anyone who disagrees or prevents them from taking them are the enemy.

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Dfens December 11, 2013 at 1:46 pm

Yeah, because Bush/Cheney was such a brain trust. What we really need is more idiots to spout major political party talking points. That will fix everything.

S Korean Won December 13, 2013 at 6:06 am

davec, there is one problem, most of those news outlets aren't news outlets. If you read the Economist a number of years, you will notice that most of its reports and opinions turn out to be false or widely off the mark.

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SJE December 11, 2013 at 10:57 am

If the Japanese and ROK felt that invasion were a realistic possibility, and that the US would not protect them, they would have nukes inside a year. They already have the ability.

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S Korean Won December 13, 2013 at 6:13 am

South Koreans don't see the Chinese as a threat. They see the US as a threat in deliberately stirring up hostilities across the 38th parallel and ripping off S Korea with its expensive and and ineffective weapons.

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Retired_MP December 11, 2013 at 11:05 am

US troops are on the ground in both countries. If you seriously think we will let our guys just die in any takeover by China you have absolutely no military experience or understanding.

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guest December 11, 2013 at 12:04 pm

I am sure all troops will have been safely withdrawn back to the States by then, if the administration is sane and competent.

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Dfens December 11, 2013 at 1:41 pm

Right. We let them die now if the enemy happens to be firing at them from the direction of a mosque, but we draw the line at letting our bases be attacked while China takes over South Korea? You think WalMart is going to allow the US military to target any city that has a manufacturing plant that stocks their shelves? You're funny.

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Musson December 10, 2013 at 11:28 am

It is a mistake to think of China as a monolithic power. Instead, think of them as 8 very powerful crime families that cooperate to stay in control of the country.

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Pjkace70 December 10, 2013 at 10:48 pm

Well Said !! ! ! And so True.

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Chuck D December 11, 2013 at 12:05 am

very accurate assesment

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Mitch S. December 11, 2013 at 9:18 am

Interesting,
I'm not that up China's internal power structure, if you know any good articles etc you recommend please post a link(s).

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Paulson December 13, 2013 at 9:31 am

Musson doesn't have any. He made it up.

He is just speculating that what is happening in the West is also happening in the East.

The West is under the collective influence or control of several powerful, super rich crime families, namely, the House of Rothschild, the House of Morgan, the House of Rockefeller, the House of Warburg, the House Oppenheimer …

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Really? December 19, 2013 at 12:17 pm

I don't think Musson knew anything about the control over Western governments exercised by powerful cartels or filthy rich families like the Rothschilds or the Rockefellers. He's obviously bought into the cover stories designed for consumption by the masses.

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guest December 11, 2013 at 12:15 pm

Which eight crime families? I counted SIX only. US, UK, JAPAN, FRANCE, CANADA, SOUTH KOREA.

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David December 11, 2013 at 3:26 pm

Than you can't count, because there are much more than six.

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guest December 11, 2013 at 8:08 pm

Add Israel and Australia.

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Doesnt Matter December 19, 2013 at 10:26 am

I'm surprised that Chinese sympathizers frequent this blog.

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Really? December 19, 2013 at 12:06 pm

I don't think it's Chinese sympathizers, but merely people who actually know what's going on and what the government is trying to do.

ADIZ is not the same as territorial space. Japan and the US have long established ADIZ's. Turning the matter into one of "territorial expansion" therefore is an unmistakable act of false propaganda similar in nature to propaganda employed recently against Libya, Iran and Syria. Do you think you can identify the motives behind this? (Hint: potentially highly profitable to some special interests.)

sonnyandjacksdad December 12, 2013 at 4:36 am

Do you know the families names?

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Really? December 19, 2013 at 12:25 pm

He most probably doesn't even know the names of politically influential families in the US.

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S Korean Won December 13, 2013 at 5:54 am

Can you name the 8 families?

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Arthur Savard December 10, 2013 at 12:47 pm

PW …..

Not certain the civilian side of the playpen, after years of buying off the military with more and more toys, hasn't lost the bubble and the uniforms are a tad off of the reservation.

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Arthur Savard December 10, 2013 at 12:50 pm

I think we all need an ADIZ over our homes or perhaps we should declare one for a fourth overlap in that neck of the woods or hell …. how about a worldwide US ADIZ that ranges 500 NM around every US warship.

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saav December 13, 2013 at 6:42 am

such an ADIZ can be eliminated by a single strike at the warship with a big ASCM or ASBM.

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Lance December 10, 2013 at 1:05 pm

Got to love this time to tick off the Chi COms. About time we had a weaker respounce to China's power grab.

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Taylor December 10, 2013 at 3:17 pm

Our Asian allies need to get their own nukes, in my opinion. If North Korea has them, our friends need to be able to defend themselves without worrying about what political group is in power here.

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blight_ December 10, 2013 at 3:30 pm

The only player in Asia with nuclear weapons is the People's Republic. But just as India is unlikely to invade Pakistan without risking a nuclear attack, and the DPRK and the PRC are immune to conventional attack, presumably the smaller states could guarantee their existence (in some form or another) with a nuclear weapon.

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Ivan B. Cohen December 10, 2013 at 8:15 pm

The radiation from "their own nukes" will have to go somewhere. With global warming not all of that stuff is going to dissipate before it either reaches Europe or America. Man can forecast weather, he can't control it.

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Nadnerbus December 10, 2013 at 11:46 pm

I was under the impression that that was part of the benefit of allying with the US: Allies fall under our nuclear umbrella, helping to prevent risky and expensive nuclear arms races.

Japan could probably make a nuke in months if they really wanted to. The easily have the technology for it.

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B.J. December 17, 2013 at 6:40 am

What if for instance North Korea uses nukes for a deterrent shield while conducting a conventional invasion of the south? And that conventional invasion uses unconventional tunnels dug under South Korea all the way to Busan. Even if SK gets US nuclear umbrella, it is hardly comforting after the 1st strike from north. A small country would cease to exist.

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Guest December 23, 2013 at 10:58 am

Any adult who falls for this US nuclear umbrella argument is as mentally competent as a 5-year old kid.

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Dobdobdob December 10, 2013 at 5:02 pm

we'll see….
China is still lacking in a lot of areas to start throwing punches around. They'll probably have a decent edge when they are able to field their new semi-stealth fighter and a couple domestic carriers too.

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Pjkace70 December 10, 2013 at 10:55 pm

And they may already be there, we have a good track record with, under. and over estimating. Just about everything in that neck of the Woods

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David December 11, 2013 at 3:33 pm

No where close. They haven't even successfully constructed a carrier yet. Renovating is not designing and constructing. Carrier operations and the institutions that support them also take a long time and lots of real hands on experience to build up to a quality level. It's not like buying a new car and driving it off the lot. Same goes for their air force.

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Big-Dean December 10, 2013 at 5:18 pm

iepid mspiepp li liseo manipe edkpeiwp, foa aei mappe hahahahaha ;-P

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Dekkard December 10, 2013 at 10:28 pm

What accounts do you refer to, China's long-suffering is self-inflicted. You chose your path: controlled by emperors, warlords, foreign agents, commissars, and now industrial robber barons. Your water is toxic and your air brings cancer. All of this you have done to yourself. Now you involve yourself in Africa, a mistake that even America avoided. The dark continent has swallowed empires more nimble and cunning, than you. You could destroy Japan, grab Taiwan, and neuter America, but that will not alleviate your pain. Your humiliation will continue; you do not think of yourself as a free people and until you do you will always be a vassal state no matter how powerful you become.

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STemplar December 10, 2013 at 11:26 pm

This whole ordeal is very hamfisted and this alleged "long view" is hogwash. There's no win here for them. Bullying everyone in the region only forces other nations to move closer and closer together. Any real military cooperation between Korea and Japan is an utter failure on China's part.

If they wanted to demonstrate true finesse and brain power they would have shown up in force to Japan's calamity after the earthquake and tsunami/reactor incident with aid. They would have shown up to the Philippines after this recent typhoon.

Thinking they are going to get themselves anywhere by bullying nations in their region is duncery. Thinking they would actually be able to individually bully nations bilaterally in these overlapping territorial disputes is linear thinking at best. It's mostly a clear demonstration about just how inbred and unchallenged the mentality and strategy is inside the Chinese ruling elite.

This is pure nationalistic stupidity on their part and domestic power cementing for Xi. I'm always a little shocked at the fanboys that flock here to trumpet China as anything someone should aspire to. They're turning their own nation into a big toxic waste dump. They've created a demographic tsunami for themselves that hits in about 20 to 30 years. They've institutionalized racism and ethnic cleansing. They're actively engaging in brinkmanship that could lead to a conflict that would be devastating for the entire world economy in the best case outcome. I really fail to see the fascination or glamour.

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oblatt2 December 11, 2013 at 5:08 am

Really why would China want to follow the failed policies of the US.

US PR stunts are little match for the hard economic advantages China offers. Just look at this Hagal specifically asked Korea not to expand it's zone and prolong the issue and the Korea told the US to go jump. So much for diplomatic influence.

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Paulson December 13, 2013 at 6:31 am

STemplar, your simple-minded, misinformed, and somewhat delusional opinion, coupled with the high # of recs usually accorded to naive, uninformed comments, serve as a good contrarian indicator that you are wildly off the mark as usual.

Don't write about something you know nothing about.

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SJE December 13, 2013 at 4:35 pm

Explain where exactly he is wrong. I think "institutionalize racism" is a little harsh, but their treatment of non-Han is well known.

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STemplar December 13, 2013 at 9:19 pm

Or what?

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ike December 14, 2013 at 4:01 pm

Paulson, I concur. However, STemplar is hardly the only one who always write about things he knows nothing about. There are dozens of other misinformed, ignorant and arrogant posters. That's why some garbage posts received 20-30 recs.

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Zspoiler December 10, 2013 at 11:50 pm

I wonder if they like having a taste of their own medicine. They are a large country .but do you really want to p*** off your neighbors. People hate bullys..

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S Korean Won December 13, 2013 at 6:33 am

Yes. People hate bullies. That's why the US has so many enemies around the world.

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Rufus Frazier December 11, 2013 at 1:22 am

I think it's just as likely that we're seeing a Munich in the making. China rattles the sabres, including a number of provocative military poses and invites the allies to negotiate to preserve peace. Concessions will be made because this is likely the most pliable US administration the Chinese will see for some time, Japan and Korea are in no position to seriously resist and US manufacturing is heavily dependent on Chinese parts. It's not an accident that this happened just after Obama caved on Syria and Iran IMO.

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Riceball December 11, 2013 at 12:56 pm

On the other hand, the Chinese are highly dependent on exporting goods to the US and the inflow of cash that brings to them. If they push us to war it will hurt us but it will most likely hurt even worse as we'll declare our debt with them null and void, leaving them holding the proverbial bag, and we'll stop buying stuff from them and down goes their economy. As long as we're smart and stay off of the ground in China itself we can simply starve China out as they're cut off from overseas resources and cash. As far as their military has come in past couple of decades or so they're still pretty lacking in the power projection arena and still don't have much of a blue water navy so any fighting in Japan or Korea, esp. Japan, is going to be rough going for them.

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BlackOwl18E December 11, 2013 at 3:22 am

China is winning on the economic front, but their overall political military strategists don't seem to think things through that well. In fact, they kinda suck.

Good on South Korea though. They are on top of the ball and playing the chess game well so far.

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@RioFalcon December 11, 2013 at 5:21 am

China miscalculated on this one… Pretty stupid for them to even think no one would respond… China could never win a 3 or 4 front war…

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Paulson December 13, 2013 at 6:23 am

You don't know what China was thinking and you don't know what Korea, Japan and US are really thinking.

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oblatt2 December 11, 2013 at 5:54 am

Most Asians see American negotiating skills as child like. Ive seen businessmen compare negotiating with Americans as similar to beating a child to death with its own candy.

The Chinese strategy is not to directly confront the US – that is the simplistic thinking you would expect from a child. But to show that the US is irrelevant in Asia.

The fact that the the secretary of state immediately rushed over to calm things down will register far more strongly with the Japanese and Koreans then US public announcements of undying friendship. They can see that in practical terms the US isnt the superpower anymore.

The US wants everyone to play happy families because it wants to remain head of the household. But times are changing even some our staunchest allies are now firmly in the Chinese camp now.

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IKnowIT December 11, 2013 at 9:47 am

Troll

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Brian Carr December 11, 2013 at 1:43 pm

From an economic standpoint, I see as we eventually replaced UK as the center of the economic universe, I see China become the next economic center of the world. It may not happen for a few decades but if we dont get our fiscal house in order, and the global trade decides the US dollar is not as stable as it used to be, we may find the shift happening much sooner. I dont see why China wants to become a military superpower when it has the people, the resources in China, and stockpiled dormant mining sites around the world (read the Economist article about it), they have set the stage to have the natural resources for long-term economic dominance.

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blight_ December 12, 2013 at 7:07 am

Trying to find that article. I did find:
http://www.thinkafricapress.com/economy/canada-do

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oblatt2 December 12, 2013 at 11:18 am

The difference is that the British managed their decline very well maintaining political influence well past the end of their military and economic power.

Americans are just not that worldly.

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blight_ December 13, 2013 at 11:46 am

The French, Portuguese didn't do much better…though France is probably second to the UK in terms of relationships with its Equatorial African Francophone countries. Algeria and Indochina, not so much.

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SJE December 11, 2013 at 2:52 pm

"But times are changing even some our staunchest allies are now firmly in the Chinese camp now"

Evidence? If anything, the aggressive moves by China are forcing more people into the US camp. This was apparent a few years ago, and was the basis for the "Asian pivot" in policy and military focus.

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David December 11, 2013 at 3:42 pm

Such as whom?

U.S. not a super power? Actually we're the only super power. At this point in history no other country can project military power. None. When it hits the fan nothing else matters.

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oblatt2 December 12, 2013 at 11:13 am

Anybody can project power unsuccessfully – for successfully projected military power we are pretty much limited to small caribbean Islands.

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Paulson December 13, 2013 at 9:51 am

oblatt2 sounds quite intelligent. You sound like an idiot. It's one thing to send the navy and marines to fight poorly equipped small countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. It's completely another to do the same against a well-organized large modern force.

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blight_ December 13, 2013 at 11:47 am

Well, the Mayaguez Incident didn't go well either.

The Marines can power-project onto a undefended beach just fine. They came in over the sea at Da Nang and in Somalia just fine.

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S Korean Won December 13, 2013 at 5:10 am

Most Asians see Americans as immature, naive and dumb.

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STemplar December 13, 2013 at 9:22 pm

And they line up to live her because……………..?

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ike December 14, 2013 at 3:55 pm

You can answer your own question with just a little bit of logical inference from S Korean Won's statement, i.e. because Asians can easily out-smart, out-work, and out-earn Americans, who they consider naive and dumb.

It's true. Most Americans are naive and dumb. However, I think they are well-mannered, nice and decent compared to most Asians, especially the Chinese.

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UAVGeek December 18, 2013 at 10:53 pm

What good is well mannered and decent if you lose?

"All warfare is based on deception"

Benjamin December 11, 2013 at 10:24 am

The only nation that is firmly in the Chinese camp is Russia and that is there own folly. More likely to be a major war between them then between the China and US. The US may fight some small battles with China over some islands but Russia and China will fight for everything east of Moscow.

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hibeam December 11, 2013 at 10:38 am

"Looks like it's time for an apology. I will fetch the presidential knee pads"

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Bob December 12, 2013 at 2:40 pm

I suspect that the are close at hand, in the "ready" locker. Good one.

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Paulson December 13, 2013 at 9:43 am

Obama is quite athletic. He can do without any knee pads. Bush, however, needs extra cushion. As for Clinton, he can send Monica Lewinsky.

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SJE December 11, 2013 at 10:53 am

China brought this on itself.

I has been backing a nuclear armed, aggressive and crazy North Korea since the 1950s, that lobs shells and missiles at South Korea and Japan, kidnaps their citizens etc. Its like the Chinese think SK, Japan and US wouldnt notice ("Hey, I'm just sitting on the stage! Its the puppet on my lap that is saying all the bad things").

The Chinese have been aggressive in expanding their territorial claims to any island, rock or reef in the neighborhood, despite other countries' claims. They don't want to give aid to the Phillipines because that country asserts rights to islands that are near it.

China aggressively asserts rights to the airspace near itself, even forcing down planes that are arguably in international airspace.

So, now the Chinese are hurt that South Korea is asserts an ADIZ. Gimme a break.

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S Korean Won December 13, 2013 at 6:19 am

Either you have been getting your news from rogue news outlets, or you are making that up because of some subconscious hostility developed over time by being exposed to consistently false news reporting.

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Filipino December 19, 2013 at 5:22 am

@S Korean Won, you're just a chinese troll

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S Korean Won December 20, 2013 at 12:05 pm

Nice try SJE. No, I'm right here in the states. How did you like the typhoon, Filipino?

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@RosaleeAdams December 12, 2013 at 10:59 am

what goes around comes around……China reminds of what the Japanese were doing in the 30s……..

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oblatt2 December 12, 2013 at 11:24 am

"Had a meeting with the Chinese American ambassadors today. They offered 50 billion dollars of infrastructure development and a doubling of our local economy"

"What did the Americans offer"

"To protect me from the Chinese offer"

———————————————————————————————-

Americas economic and military decline means that we are not the realistic alternative to China we are claiming to be.

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Filipino December 19, 2013 at 5:24 am

That sounds completely stupid, you're just another Chinese punk getting paid 2 cents per comment

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ServingGreenTea December 13, 2013 at 2:21 am

I'm not sure if it's entirely accurate to say that the new Korean ADIZ caught PRC and JPN off guard…ROK gov't had announced publicly that they are working on a newly expanded ADIZ after the PRC announcement. Media reports indicated that ROK consulted with Biden before the announcement.
http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.ahttps://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2013

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jessmo December 14, 2013 at 1:28 pm

Really? we cant project power? even with 9 CARRIERS AND 9 GATOR BOATS?
Do you think, you may be trying to hard? When the Chinese can blocade both coasts call me ok.

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orly? December 15, 2013 at 9:09 am
@RioFalcon December 19, 2013 at 6:22 am

“safely and cautiously” China and their words… I have to laugh… They think because they have lives to waste, they can bully whomever… I'd call their bluff and say, bring it… What are they going to do, fight multiple countries that lay claim? They'd loose face real quick…

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S Korean Won December 13, 2013 at 5:49 am

That's not what he's getting at. Your use of the word "own" is kind of giving away your lack of understanding in the creation of money and debt by the Fed.

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ike December 16, 2013 at 8:37 pm

Yep. The Fed doesn't actually own the US T notes but merely monetizes them with credit created out of thin air, which translates dilution of the value of US dollars currently in circulation, plus a burden of debt plus interest to be paid off by the US tax payers.

I'll bet over 90% of the posters in this forum have no idea about this. This higher the amount of T notes registered under the Fed, the worse the fiscal reality is for the US and citizens. Simply put, the Fed, along with the government, are screwing US taxpayers and dollar investors.

Created in 1913 by stealth against the US Constitution, the Fed is a private institution not under the supervision of any US government agencies. It has no reserves as a bank of issue, and is as federal as the Federal Express. In fact the name Federal Reserve was the product of fraud by agents of international central bankers such as the Rothschilds and the Rockefellers, who have exercised domination over governments of Europe and the US for almost a century now.

December 23 or 24, 2013 will be the 100th anniversary of the creation of the Federal Reserve, a front end of real government of North America. The White House and US Congress are nothing more than puppet show theater for the ignorant masses.

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ike December 16, 2013 at 8:49 pm

"Give me control of a nation's money supply and I care not who writes its laws." — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild.

"I care not what puppet is placed upon the throne of England to rule the Empire on which the sun never sets. The man who controls Britain's money supply controls the British Empire, and I control the British money supply." — Nathan M. Rothschild

(note: Nathan M. Rothschild controlled the Bank of England after 1820.)

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Guest December 19, 2013 at 8:42 am

so what deception is the US employing right now?

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Guest December 19, 2013 at 8:54 am

I think you mean "translates TO dilution" in 1st paragraph, and "THE higher the amount of T bills" in 2nd paragraph.

I'd say it's more fitting to call the name "Federal Reserve" a "term of deception", that is, a name coined to mislead or deceive. A "product of fraud" would suggest something slightly different.

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Guest December 19, 2013 at 8:55 am

Very good quotes.

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Really? December 19, 2013 at 9:55 pm

You are so clueless. ADIZ has got nothing to do with expanding a country's air space. ADIZ means Air Defense Identification Zone. Repeat: Identification Zone.

Did you take your English lessons from GW Bush? or are you dyslexic?

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