Home » Sea » China’s Advancing Sub Fleet Concerns U.S. Navy

China’s Advancing Sub Fleet Concerns U.S. Navy

by Mike Hoffman on February 5, 2014

China SubThe U.S. Navy sees the growth of the Chinese submarine fleet as a serious rising threat, according to a report issued by the Office of Naval Intelligence.

China’s Jin-class ballistic nuclear submarine will begin sailing deterrent patrols in 2014. It would mark the Chinese navy’s “first credible a-sea-second-strike nuclear capability,” according to the report. ONI prepared the report as part of testimony on the Chinese navy to the U.S. China Economic and Security Review.

The Chinese fleet consists of about 62 submarines. Of the 62, five are nuclear attack submarines, four are nuclear ballistic missile submarines and 53 are diesel attack subs. 

ONI officials found that China has rapidly increased the offensive weapons technology aboard these subs. A decade ago, China could only fire anti-ship cruise missiles off a few submarines. That has changed. More than half now fire the anti-ship cruise missiles.

The nuclear ballistic missile submarines will fire a JL-2 submarine launched ballistic missile that has a range of 4,000 nautical miles. It would give the Chinese the ability to fire a ballistic missile capable of hitting Hawaii, Alaska and western portions of CONUS from East Asian waters, according to the report.

Read more about the report, which was first published by USNI, here .

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{ 153 comments… read them below or add one }

Peter February 5, 2014 at 4:14 pm

Maybe, just maybe, if we hadn't spent so much money with them this would'nt happen.

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Jeff February 5, 2014 at 10:03 pm

Funny how 'spending so much money with them' resulted in us owing them $2 trillion. Such is the bankrupt model of 'service-based', 'post-industrial' economy.

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Musson February 6, 2014 at 11:28 am

On the other hand, they did lend us the money to build the torpedos that can blow these subs out of the water.

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Nathan February 6, 2014 at 4:07 pm

Brilliant, men. Let's keep up the spending!

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Bill February 11, 2014 at 10:45 am

Of which they will reap free R&D costs because we can't keep our information to ourselves.

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David Burrows February 15, 2014 at 3:19 am

on the money we should have improved mexico

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Nicky February 5, 2014 at 4:39 pm

Maybe it's time we start putting SSK's in Guam and make their life very difficult

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EW3 February 5, 2014 at 4:49 pm

Put them in Sasebo as well.

But remember the Japanese have some very sophisticated subs.

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navy259 February 6, 2014 at 4:04 am

Canada has four SSK's…sort of. Okay we have one that works right now, Sigh.

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navy259 February 6, 2014 at 4:08 am

I think you mean SSN's, Right? The USA does not have any SSK's in service at this time.

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Jeff February 6, 2014 at 9:25 pm

We don't have any SSKs', you lunkhead.

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JohnnyRanger February 5, 2014 at 4:49 pm

I'm sure we'd have an torpedo on the way the second we heard a missile hatch open…

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JohnnyRanger February 5, 2014 at 4:49 pm

"a" torpedo. Sorry…

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EW3 February 5, 2014 at 5:49 pm

Suspect the current regime would frown at a sub commander doing that.

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orly? February 6, 2014 at 6:09 pm

You and I know there isn't much anyone can do to stop a ship's captain.

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EW3 February 7, 2014 at 3:41 pm

Ever served on a ship or boat?

The ROE is in the op orders These would be known to senior officers such as the XO, Ops, Weaps etc. There will be no time to report the situation and get orders (see how fast they responded to Benghazi)

I doubt that a US sub (or surface ship) are given orders to fire on another sub when you hear the missile hatch open. Only at the peak of the cold war with a Yankee Class off the coast of DC, might SSNs have such ROEs.

blight_ February 5, 2014 at 5:08 pm

We still have enough subs to spare to shadow all of their SSBN's, I presume?

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Big-Dean February 5, 2014 at 5:43 pm

Thank God our submarine forces pretty much have it together. I love my Navy but the black shoes are smoking LCS crack and the brown shoes are up to their knees in F-35 shit (but they are starting to see the light…)

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Dale Christopher February 10, 2014 at 10:58 am

I love you.

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superraptor February 5, 2014 at 5:59 pm

well, if we want to have a chance in a strategic competition with China, we will have to increase our military budget and invest in our nuclear deterrence. But we are doing the opposite, that's while we will be toast some day. And yes the F-35C needs to be cancelled. China is winning, we just don't want to acknowledge it yet.

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Kurt Montandon February 6, 2014 at 10:20 pm

You don't actually know what our military budget is, do you?

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Hialpha February 10, 2014 at 8:01 pm

Haha!

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Wulf145 February 11, 2014 at 7:30 am

I assume that you are unaware of the fact that the USA account for 39% of the global defence expenditure.

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Frederick June 21, 2014 at 3:29 pm

We now have to borrow from our Chinese banker for our budget so we don't have to raise taxes and cut programs it's sad to say.

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Lance February 5, 2014 at 6:10 pm

I find the subs more of a threat than China's inferior carrier and inferior SU-33 fighters for it. How ever I find most govern reports just a attempt to scare people to give the DOD its unlimited funs it wants where it will waste on Army crap and the JSF. More Attack subs may be needed but the Pentagon morons wont want that.

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Rob February 12, 2014 at 5:31 pm

There is only so much capacity in our industrial base to build submarines.

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Vers February 12, 2014 at 11:26 pm

Lance, if you want to BS, at least do some basic research to get the basics right. CHina doesn't have SU-33. Russia does. Those on the Chinese carrier are J-15 / J-16s.

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Vers February 12, 2014 at 11:26 pm

Reply meant for Lance, not Rob.

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Israel February 5, 2014 at 6:14 pm

China is undergoing an industrial age revolution due to their position on their economic life span. Interesting that their committed to building this fleet, maybe they're in search for raw materials to fuel their expansion.

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Dale Christopher February 10, 2014 at 1:45 pm

Germany style WWI, they feel locked in, like all the world is against them. Yet they have a huge surge of nation pride and gumption. We need to offer them a way out without allowing them the chance to hurt anyone.

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hibeam February 5, 2014 at 7:09 pm

This is serious. Hopefully China can loan us some money so we can respond.

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Stephen N Russell February 5, 2014 at 7:28 pm

time for the US to upgrade our subs Big time, the successor to the LA class boats should be due soon.
Must have to counter Chinese naval forces worldwide.

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navy259 February 5, 2014 at 9:38 pm

Think Virginia Class to replace LA Class

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PolicyWonk February 6, 2014 at 6:23 pm

And Seawolf (that class, however, was stopped after 3 boats).

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navy259 February 5, 2014 at 9:36 pm

Hopefully their Reactor Tech's cheated on their exams as well…

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Ty Street February 5, 2014 at 9:37 pm

We buy their cheap products made with cheap labor that hardly gets paid, we prop up the government which tells the citizenry that Communism is working as designed, they use of our money from goods and services to build up their military so that they can threaten US interests, and then we (the Americans that started the whole process), then complain about it. Go figure!

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voa February 9, 2014 at 11:38 am

U.S does not know much about China. U.S created a monster. It will kill millions of people in the very near future. Fucking Kissenger, Fucking Nixon…

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Highguard February 5, 2014 at 10:16 pm

So, you think maybe we need more/better BMD, Anti-Torp Countermeasures and Advanced Long-Range ASW Torpedoes?! Maybe?! Industry is primed but where are the lobbyists for this stuff? Are they scared of the politicians? There's enough threats out there that we could have high tech, cottage, Military-Industrial Complex (whew the all knowing, all seeing conspirators) weapons systems being built in each state of the union. How's that for bi-partisan national defense? The Big 9 need to start building plants in every state and plan for that and to _ _ _ _ with Acquisition Efficiency.

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RRGED February 5, 2014 at 10:35 pm

Let's just keep turning the other cheek and ignore, why there's no Cold War happening around here.LOL!!!!

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Stan February 5, 2014 at 10:55 pm

Anti-submarine torpedoes? Wake up. Once China sticks ASBMs on their subs good luck getting those carrier battle groups anywhere within 2000-3000 km of them. We need directed energy weapons, the kinds that can reach to many hundreds of miles to defend our ships. Heck, I would be for a dedicated nuke-powered ship devoted specifically to missile defense.

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Big-Dean February 6, 2014 at 5:13 pm

but what if they are within 500 keloquats distance?

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Dale Christopher February 10, 2014 at 10:59 am

Then increase the power supply and blow out the laser lenses to protect the ship, then resupply at sea.

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Dale Christopher February 10, 2014 at 11:06 am

Carrier drones will soon be able to span the entire pacific from one launch with no refueling so no big deal. We are looking at a situation where drone flying wings, with crew compartments for temporary manning, will be airborne 24/7/365, through constant refueling. We are uncovering some terrifying and awe inspiring tech. I wonder how much longer the carrier will be a viable platform for war.
When our XCOM squads land on an island off the coast of japan and use pneumatic shovels and drills to breach the magma and instigate a tidal wave to kill half the population of China rather than retaliate with nuclear due to environmental costs, you'll know the kinda shit I'm into.

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 10, 2014 at 11:39 am

Please note: Novels by Dale Brown and Clive Cussler are FICTION.

And please explain why a tidal wave, triggered by a magma release off the coast of Japan and large enough to kill half the population of China, will not do the same (at least) to North Korea, South Korea, Taiwan, Japan and the Philippines. Inquiring minds would like to know.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Dale Christopher February 10, 2014 at 1:43 pm

Science fiction precedes science fact, I know what fiction is, I write it. In a nuclear war like the one that will happen in this post-power projection era, that's just acceptable collateral damage. How will it not? Duh, those places all sit on or before the First Island Chain. So in a nuclear conflict with China, nearly everyone there would be dead by the time we retaliated. Also, if they were still alive, maybe we could direct the lava flow, seeing as we breached it. Thereby not just tidal waving them, but sealing their ports in rock. Open your mind. Embrace the possibility of a no-holds-barred WWI style conflict with modern and tomorrow's tech. I'm trying to prevent it. Also the vast majority of China's population is on the coast, so it doesn't have to be so big. I admit this is a cold hearted move. Similar to using the MIRV wall.

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Dale Christopher February 10, 2014 at 1:46 pm

Have you guys read Open Source by Col. Frick?

Thomas L. Nielsen February 11, 2014 at 2:09 am

"Science fiction precedes science fact" – Sometimes, but science fiction does not prove science fact.

"I know what fiction is, I write it" – I had sort of guessed that.

"that's just acceptable collateral damage" – Your notion of what constitutes "acceptable collateral damage" differs considerably from mine. But hey, that means you wouldn't mind moving to Japan before we set off the tsunami, right?

"but sealing their ports in rock" – and this would be a good thing how?

"Open your mind" – I do, but not so much that just anything can drop in.

"Also the vast majority of China's population is on the coast, so it doesn't have to be so big" – ah, so just a baby tsunami then, killing maybe a few million people in Japan, South Korea, etc.? Well that all right then [/sarcasm]

"I admit this is a cold hearted move" – "cold-hearted" is not the term I would have used.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

Shawn February 5, 2014 at 11:05 pm

Communist China wants to be the next Adolf Hitler and wants all natural resources like: oil, and natural gas, precious metals etc. to be in their hands to feed their more than a billion population that depended highly on smog and pollution to crank up more pirated materials from name brand developer and sell 'em to the world as their own…China is a greedy nation and most of its leaders want world domination

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Dale Christopher February 12, 2014 at 8:29 am

Don't blame the people for being mislead in a situation where they are powerless and beholden to a corrupt few. We need to help them free themselves from outright slavery without war. Remember, China has a long history of civil war, what Chinese leaders fear most is their own people, Christianity is growing more in China than anywhere else. We can use this to our advantage to stave off war.

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10thdiv February 5, 2014 at 11:45 pm

I wonder how many subs they have lost to manufacturing defects? (seriously wondering)

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ken badoian February 6, 2014 at 9:56 am

Remember the 1960's plus missile gap.

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Clint Notestine February 6, 2014 at 10:20 am

thank god our newest anti sub plane works… oh wait

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Michael_AF_Ret February 6, 2014 at 10:35 am

I see a picture of a hull that will generate a great deal of noise. So, a patrol is likely to be on the bottom or in port. Everything about a submarine deals with stealth. Not to underestimate the Chinese; they have shown they can "steal" technology with the best. However, materials technology requires more than a how-to document. Often it comes down to just the basics. Electricity is a necessary basic. During WW2, the Manhattan Project required a significant portion of the Nation's electrical capacity to refine uranium ore and plutonium. Allocating existing resources and acquiring resources you do not have can 'limit' your capacity to produce the quality necessary for military-grade materials. That is one reason that military budgets are so high. Another reason is that maintaining the serviceability of your existing assets requires money. So, seeing a submarine, on the surface, implies many things; but, it doesn't tell me anymore than the hull floats.

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david February 6, 2014 at 10:36 am

Scare tactics to get the US to spend more money (that we do not have) on our military. Reagon did this in the 80's when he talked about how many nuc's the USSR had. He may sure to report that they had more than we did. As it turned out he lied we had x2 more the than USSR. Let China build up a big military, let them spend themselves into debt like we are/have done. We have enough (too much) of everything. Time to cut our budget

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Mambo February 6, 2014 at 10:43 am

China's sub fleet is the least of our worries right now. This is another link in the chain of procurement. They are scared to death to let their nuke boats out of site of land. This isn't to say that China isn't rushing to catch up but they aren't close yet. Nuke boat design and operation is EXTREMELY difficult as witnessed by the Russians continuing problems 50 years after they started operating the boats regularly. China has a steep learning curve before they are ready to use their fleet (use that term loosely as they don't have anything resembling a fleet yet) effectively.

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Dan1971 February 6, 2014 at 10:49 am

Hmmm … and the US Navy without a modern (or even close to modern) frigate design. Oh, I'm sure the LCS will be able to handle this, and every other, threat.

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Big-Dean February 6, 2014 at 5:18 pm

oh yes the MIGHTY LCS that can

-sweep the oceans free of mines
-shoot down ballistic missile
-defend the carrier against waves of anti-ship missiles
-seen out and destroy fleets of subs
-do warp 50
and it can even make a great cup of coffee with it "ASC module" For those of you who are ignorant it's the "Anti-Starbucks Coffee" module brought to you by Peet's Coffee Defense Systems Inc. ;-P

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Dale Christopher February 10, 2014 at 8:25 pm

Modular design experiments are nothing to laugh at. When they fit that thing with a simplified multiple gun platform and send it up Chinese rivers after the missile storm it will look good, though barbaric.

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hibeam February 6, 2014 at 11:02 am

In China their students are learning math and science in school. I seriously doubt they can compete with our social justice trained free stuff voters.

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oblatt2 February 6, 2014 at 11:36 am

Its shocking how much Chinese students study. IF they dont change they are going to end up dependent on doing all the hard jobs and not build an economy of instagram selfies and youtube blogs

Remember the average Chinese student wants to be an engineer or a doctor or a business man the average American student wants to be a celebrity.

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Jacob February 6, 2014 at 12:44 pm

You mean like how that socialist dictator in the White House wants universal pre-K education to…help our students learn math and science?

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Big-Dean February 6, 2014 at 5:20 pm

No worries hibean

We'll just attack them with our LCS and it's "Social Justice/Diversity/It's not fair" module. That'll do them in for sure

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Greg February 7, 2014 at 6:58 pm

I have 4 kids 3 are of school age. Our math program is definitely doing better then when I was a child in the 80's. Upon further research the US has world class engineering programs throughout the country in almost every state. The quality of our engineer IMHO is much higher then say a chinese engineer who graduates from his local university/college. China has 1 billion plus people so of course currently now they produce more engineers. I believe though with the 1 child policy that they just slightly loosened they will not be able to sustain the high percentage of engineers produced due to an rapidly aging population.

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blight_ February 8, 2014 at 8:17 am

If they turn around and spend the money they're making on social welfare programs, they can probably ramp up child production again. Then again, if American production moves from China to Vietnam, it'll be hard times again..

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Bernard February 7, 2014 at 8:06 pm

That's why our job market sucks. Everyone is hiring engineers but American's suck so much at it that we have to recruit immigrants and give them visas. I know this since I work in IT.

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blight_ February 8, 2014 at 8:17 am

..except the American IT people who are getting H-1B'ed out.

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Dale Christopher February 10, 2014 at 4:24 pm

Good, let's keep stealing all of their technology and their engineers will do the work for us. Then I can keep working out, practicing martial arts, and writing novels.

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blinded1 February 6, 2014 at 11:42 am

China is not a threat, as the US military industry and their lobbyists and the people they helped to run the public offices want we to believe. China's military modernization is in line with its economy, its population size and land size. In term of per capita defense spending, China is far less than all US and Japan.

Wake up people. Those who shout load about China threats makes seven-figures income, paid by you and me the ordinary taxpayers.

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Big-Dean February 6, 2014 at 5:20 pm

and WHO do you work for again?

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Praetorian February 8, 2014 at 2:32 pm

50 Cent

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Dale Christopher February 10, 2014 at 2:55 pm

As always, WE are the greatest threat to OURSELVES.

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Navbm7 February 10, 2014 at 3:16 pm

More important, WHERE ARE YOU? Your comment is so full of misused words it is obvious that English is NOT your home language.

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Wulf145 February 11, 2014 at 8:43 am

"Your comment is so full of misused words it is obvious that English is NOT your home language.

Read more: http://defensetech.org/2014/02/05/chinas-advancin
Defense.org
"

I don't want to seem pedantic, but actually the expression you are looking for is "mother tongue" or "native language", from what you have written one could presume that you have not achieved a high proficiency in your own native Language.

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gdadl February 12, 2014 at 11:53 pm

So blinded1… lets follow your logic … they are growing the military to match their economy ….. so if that is a given then their military is growing … yes ???? So with a larger military how does that not make it a threat ????, especially when their military openly says their strategy is to be prepared to fight a war against us (thats right the US of A). Further they appose us in every situation … again not something a friendly nation does. But lets just all stick our heads up blined1 ass … actually lets just let him stick his head up his own ass.

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Tom February 6, 2014 at 11:48 am

Have things in China changed recently that those in charge want to put nuclear weapons under such limited control onboard a submarine? I would ascribe this more to the DoD making more of the Chinese threat than there really is …

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MLee Baker February 6, 2014 at 3:56 pm

We always have to have a boogeyman out there lurking around, it's just the way things work to get money. The services need to prioritize their money better, maybe stop designing new uniforms every 30 days and messing around with 500 hundred different types of drones, backpack computers, on and on…..at this time the economy sucks, the well is dry, and I don't want to hear about a single penny more from the taxpayer from my county government all the way up to the Fed. Find a way to deal with what you get.

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Joe February 6, 2014 at 7:21 pm

The only reason they even wrote this article, is because. China is the only country in the world that could put up a decent fight, and win Without using nukes. Without china the us would be seen as the country trying to take over the world. (oh wait people already think that)(lol)

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CalRob February 6, 2014 at 9:06 pm

Well – still wanting to buy Chinese made goods to support their military?????

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STemplar February 7, 2014 at 9:42 am

Wow. They're doing a deterrence patrol. The Ohio class passed the 1000 mission mark several years ago.

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Tiger February 11, 2014 at 5:04 pm

China is just following the same path we did. Minus TR in the command chair.

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Chuckiechan Chan February 7, 2014 at 1:08 pm

Hopefully, their systems are awash with counterfeit parts too, as well has built with designs stolen from servers with 'spoof'd' plans.

China is a menace to Asia, period. They particularly want to encircle and emasculate Japan for wrongs committed in WW2. Japan may just nuke their asses someday.

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PolicyWonk February 10, 2014 at 10:46 am

Chinese conservatives are largely of the belief that now is the time to settle old scores for how they've been treated over the past 200+ years. Hence – their new economic and "no-fly-without-asking-may-I?" zones.

But their ham-handed excuse for diplomacy is alarming a lot of well-armed neighboring nations, one of which is already nuclear armed, and others that could be very quickly (Japan and S. Korea).

These Chinese conservatives would be well advised to get used to the fact that the world is a very different place now – and that acting stupidly will surround them with enemies – which is ultimately self defeating.

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Vers February 11, 2014 at 10:28 pm

A direct confrontation in Korea didn't defeat the Chinese, did it? An indirect confrontation in Vietnam sank the US economy to the point of a huge debtor nation, from which we haven't recovered to this day. In fact, it's getting worse by the year.

Stay away from propaganda. It's good for nobody.

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Elmer February 8, 2014 at 3:56 am

Don't worry guys it's all made in China they can't stand long last!….

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DBM February 8, 2014 at 5:17 pm

How about laying some kind of dormant mines outside of their sub bases that could be activated when hostilities seem eminent. Or just nuke them.

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Tad February 8, 2014 at 7:00 pm

China always surprises to the upside. At least, the Pentagon always seems to be surprised. You'd think they'd adjust their expectations upward after all the times they have expressed such surprise, but hey, look who we're talking about.

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Mambo February 9, 2014 at 1:02 pm

It has nothing to do with the Pentagon being "surprised". It has everything to do with getting your service priorities funded. It's how procurement works.

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Tad February 9, 2014 at 3:04 pm

I know. It was a feeble attempt at sarcasm.

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Hunter76 February 8, 2014 at 7:43 pm

China will build itself up to a super power, and there's nothing we can do about it. But remember, we never had a hot war with the Soviet Union, either.

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Tiger February 11, 2014 at 5:00 pm

Well a few hot punches were thrown. From dented subs to full blown shoot downs like Power's U-2. Lord only knows how many Korea & Vietnam MIA's were taken.

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Ming the merciless February 9, 2014 at 2:59 pm

It's time to unleash Japan from WWII disarmament and help India develop further capabilities, then let's arm SK and Australia to the teeth (nukes included)…

Give China a few extra problems to consider…

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IQAF1985 February 10, 2014 at 4:12 am

is this a justification for maintaining the US defense-spending-madness ?

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Rob C. February 10, 2014 at 11:51 am

I hope this is wake up call to US Congress to get ITS act together. Grant you the Navy along with other services has had some problems developing new sea platforms and weapons systems. However, the submarine force has been one of the few shining points of it. However, they need to be able to sustain a large force if they want to deter the Chinese and make darn sure that they can't nab more our secrets cybernetically.

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sharkey February 12, 2014 at 10:24 pm

I toured the USS Independence LCS 2 today. As a bubblehead all I could think about was it makes a great target. We just have to set the torpedo depth at 15 feet or less. AN impressive electronics driven vehicle for amphibious and littoral action but it seemed awfully frail to me. The crew complement is only 40+ and seemed officer heavy, several ladies too. I wouldn't want to be serving aboard her in her first battle situation.

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 13, 2014 at 2:25 am

"I wouldn't want to be serving aboard her in her first battle situation" – are you referring to the ship, or to one of the ladies?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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G mail February 12, 2014 at 11:17 pm

Ha ha ha, the one percent was so hell bent on greed and busting up organized labor by moving all the factories over seas and many into China that they jeopardized the National Security of this nation.

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William Howard February 12, 2014 at 11:30 pm

Keep asking money from China to pay our bill,s this is how they get us by making subs

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gdadl February 12, 2014 at 11:45 pm

Well thanks to Billie "I didn't have sex with that woman" Clinton, the Chinese got a big leg up by being able to steal our Trident Missile technology … he new about … and did NOTHING about it.

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HAMDAOUI February 13, 2014 at 6:37 am

The best way to get rid of a potential enemy is to make her your friend.

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HM2(SS) February 13, 2014 at 1:01 pm

The worst thing that we can do is to under estimate our potential enemy. I have served in the U.S. Navy in Ohio class submarines, and I know what it’s like. If you knew what goes on under water around the world, you would probably not sleep well at night. The Chinese could easily take one of their modern, quiet submarines and slowly work their way close to the CONUS and be able to nuke us in the matter of minutes and we would not be able to do anything about it except ring our hands. If there was any area of national defense spending that needs to be prioritized, my bet would be on any kind of anti-submarine warfare.

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mpgunner February 22, 2014 at 2:10 pm

We always need a good "enemy" to support our defense.

I do hope China keeps making these "targets". They should be fun to sink, right?

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Zack May 11, 2014 at 1:48 pm

China spent 2 percentage of their GDP on military, which is even less than France or India in term of percentages. We have close to 5 percentage of our GDP on military consistently for decades. US is light years ahead of China. I bet this article and numerous others across all medias are sponsored by the defense contractors who distort facts and stir up fears in order to get bigger slice of our tax money. The danger is that they are also pressing our foreign policies to both portrait and simultaneously push China to be our opponent. Those greedy arms contractors need enemies to justify their evil deeds. If they have their way, the world would not be safe any more.

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PolicyWonk February 6, 2014 at 8:27 am

True. Plus, the Chinese have an time-honored tradition of reengineering what they bought (or licensed) from others. The Russians have had a LOT of problems with the Chinese copying their designs, and then selling them as their own – and submarines are merely one example.

This is of course why the US thought the Chinese would never do it with any of the 10's of thousands of dual use technologies, manufacturing techniques, etc., that we simply gave away during 2002-2008. Granted, it technology transfers had happened before (for example: the Clinton Administration allowing the transfer of missile technologies during the 1990's), but nothing done in the past was ever classified as a bona-fide national security disaster by the NIE (the report containing the combined opinions of all 16 US intelligence agencies).

They cited the staggering loss of capacity to the US strategic manufacturing base, the massive dual-use technology transfers, the loss of 8+ million jobs, and a tremendous transfer of wealth, amongst other things.

All of this has donated tremendously to China's military build-up – and so have the sales of cheap Chinese goods in the USA.

Hence: BUY AMERICAN. Only buy Chinese as the LAST possible resort.

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Shamwowed February 6, 2014 at 3:01 pm

Agreed but hard to do when previous administrations put us in this position. Remember, the Chinese funded and still do the democratic party. Hence, Clinton-Gore, Obama-Biden, and likely Hillary-Puppet.

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Vers February 6, 2014 at 4:00 pm

PolicyWonk, you sure make a lot of unsubstantiated claims. Can you actually back up your claims that the US *gave away* tens of thousands of dual use techs", "the Clinton admin transferred missile techs to China", "tremendous transfer of wealth to China"?

Even modestly informed bankers on Wall St. could tell you without hesitation that it's China transferring its hard earned wealth to the US over the past 3 decades.

There has been transfer of wealth in America, but it's from the poor and the middle class to the rich and the super rich.

As for giving away techs, you are simply being willfully naive. The business elites of this country didn't become rich by being idiots. And the Chinese didn't sit on the throne of economic superpower for over a millennium by being stupid and lazy.

Indigenous R&D happens; mutually agreed business deals happens; espionage happens; but they happen in all countries.

Don't try to sound like the US govt or US corporations have been wronged or taken advantage by anyone. And claims from political mug-slinging aren't to be taken as facts.

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Dale Christopher February 10, 2014 at 8:24 pm

We might as well have the 3-D printer built by God, and it can 3-D print other 3-D printers of equal quality. China's military has quality control issues as bad or far worse then ours. Notice the rover failure. I'm just not impressed by their industry. They lost another sub either today or yesterday from my sources, but it's not to incredibly common, the thing is, who recovers them…?

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blight_ February 11, 2014 at 4:42 pm

Indeed, why not steer an asteroid into the Pacific Ocean for maximum tsunami effect? The bigger, the better.

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Dale Christopher February 12, 2014 at 8:24 am

READ IN ENTIRETY BEFORE RESPONDING

Please don't take my quotes out of context. "In a nuclear war like the one that will happen in this post-power projection era." THEN IT'S acceptable collateral damage. I know how many kids have been killed in the drone war. Don't pine to me about ethics! Did you miss the "Those people will likely already be dead by the time we use this" part too.

"I know what science fiction is, I write it" – I had sort guessed that part. Indeed, but how many times have you written a book to try and help Lyndon Larouche prevent nuclear holocaust, after being in contact with them for a year and a half, called up his PAC and had someone with a voice strangely like his say: "We don't need anymore help, just tell us how it's gunna be." Be careful who you are carelessly dismissive of.

If I wanted to avoid collateral damage I would release the breach on the west side of an island, and use the island to muffle the wave before it has a chance to grow. The largest tidal waves are usually caused by a shifting in the ocean floor and if we can get it to rise and move directly west, it should only wave in one direction as long as it has an island to disrupt it's eastern side.

If it wins the war. I will move there before it happens. Because a guy my age will likely be killed in the war anyway and if I can get it won without bleeding my nation dry, I will gladly do so. I will chant nam myoho renge kyo up until I either drown or am crushed. I said in college that if the war comes, I will be first to go to the meat grinder, if it helps win, I will.

Science fiction almost always proceeds science fact, partially because there are so many damned authors. It doesn't prove it, testing and observation does that. But it can tell you were to look for an easy, quick, low cost solution. Especially when the engineers are exhausted or have differing findings. Usually only times it doesn't is when the authors (many who have science or engineering degrees, unlike this broken man, who studied history) described the invention in weird ways, or if it was so obscure that no one read it.

Sealing their ports in rock will cause them to move closer to ground controlled by us. So when they rebuild their navy it will be harder for them to get early warning from our strikes. Or if we could quick cool it. (please don't make me explain ways of doing that, there are multiple.) We have an empty beach to land on.
Also, almost nothing in war is a good thing. Why did you ask how this would be? Please phrase questions in military jargon form, such as "how would this provide a strategic advantage." MY responses are limited, you must ask the right questions. In a war over water,or an endless resource war scenario, anything you can do to inconvenience your enemy is good, and having your port moved a mile further off shore and your best harbor made into a rock quarry is pretty inconveniencing.

If your mind is open enough, then most things that are completely useless will just fall through, unless you purposely grab them. Just because it's all the way open doesn't mean you dispense with reason and knowledge. And I quote the Guardian, was it the Guardian that did this title?: "Psy ops, Silly ops, and so forth, American military spending is out of control." I don't care if it's out of control. But I think a lot about Eisenhower's Farewell Address, almost as much as I do Washington's.

Yes a baby tsunami. If we make it then we know it's coming and have early warning to allow them to evacuate in time. While China wouldn't Props for the [/sarcasm] I'mma use that every day now!

Ok this is a heartless genocide move. But using the MIRV wall amounts to xenocide to me so I have to choose the lesser of evils.

Any further questions? All ahead full!

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Dale Christopher February 12, 2014 at 8:26 am

Because some of these asteroids are far away and that will take years to do without breaking the light speed barrier. If you're going to drop an asteroid, drop it ON China. With their smog the dust cloud created will kill almost everything and shatter the Great Bunker on impact.

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Dale Christopher February 12, 2014 at 9:02 am

Also, I love how you question me on the Tsunami but not the XCOM squads, thereby almost admitting that they are real.

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 13, 2014 at 2:18 am

PART I

"READ IN ENTIRETY BEFORE RESPONDING" – I did. 3 times.

"Please don't take my quotes out of context." – Even in your context, your definition of "acceptable collateral damage" still differs considerably from mine.

And why bother with artificial tsunamis, when perfectly good thermonuclear weapons are available?

"….how many times have you written a book to try and help Lyndon Larouche prevent nuclear holocaust" – uhm…[counts on fingers]…none. You? Oh, and was it Lyndon LaRouche as in /that/ Lyndon LaRouche? If so, I think you were well out of it.

"….a voice strangely like his say: "We don't need anymore help, just tell us how it's gunna be."" – It was probably the directional-tsunami idea that put him off.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 13, 2014 at 2:19 am

PART II

"Be careful who you are carelessly dismissive of." – I am sometimes dismissive, but never carelessly.

"I said in college that if the war comes, I will be first to go to the meat grinder, if it helps win, I will." – And you made good on that statement in which wars (Vietnam, Balkans, Iraq I, Iraq II, Afghanistan…)?

"…partially because there are so many damned authors….." – Of course. The more authors make predictions about the future, the higher the probability that one of them will eventually be right.

"But it can tell you were to look for an easy, quick, low cost solution" – and since this "almost always" happens, you'll have plenty of examples to show us, yes?

"….many who have science or engineering degrees…" – Have you discussed the directional-tsunami idea with any of those scientists and engineers?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 13, 2014 at 2:20 am

PART III

"Or if we could quick cool it. (please don't make me explain ways of doing that, there are multiple.)…." – Oh, but please do explain. I love explanations. Just the top three, for example.

"Please phrase questions in military jargon form…." – I asked a question in plain English, and you obviously understood it, so why should I?

"MY responses are limited…." – the length of your post above says otherwise.

"….you must ask the right questions" – I ask the questions I find relevant.

"If your mind is open enough, then most things that are completely useless will just fall through…." – and a lot of not-so-useless stuff will as well.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 13, 2014 at 2:21 am

PART IV

And I quote the Guardian, was it the Guardian that did this title?: "Psy ops, Silly ops, and so forth, American military spending is out of control." – please explain why this is not a complete non sequitur?

"…I think a lot about Eisenhower's Farewell Address, almost as much as I do Washington's." – I think a lot about Halle Berry as Catwoman. Your point?

"While China wouldn't [have early warning]" – yeah, because the logistics required to evacuate Japan will arouse no suspicion at all. None.

"Any further questions?" Probably.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Dale Christopher February 12, 2014 at 3:11 pm

In addition, thank you for being willing to discuss this with me. It was fun.

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 13, 2014 at 1:51 am

[FACEPALM]

You could also write a post about Santa Clause kamikazeing his sleigh into the San Andreas Fault, thereby triggering an earthquake that sends the entire US west coast into the Pacific.

Thereby, you'd be able to see me "almost admitting" that Santa is real too.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 13, 2014 at 1:52 am

You're welcome.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Dale Christopher February 13, 2014 at 7:57 am

It's the title from a story that a major news outlet ran. I can't find it on the web. But seeing as the British Government is raiding their offices to get Edward's Doc's, and with how tightly freedom of speech is being curtailed, I'm surprised they can keep any news stories going. Are you offended by something? Is that why you question be quoting and news story? Hold on for a little more illumination.

Ok bro, let's go over the content I'm thinking about while your mind goes round and round Hallie Berry's butt cheeks. What was Eisenhower's farewell address? : "Beware the growing danger from the military industrial complex." American was the only industrialized country not to have it's internals ravaged by WWII. Western Russia is the heartland of Russia, and the most comfortable and easiest part to live in, so even though the Germans didn't get that far they still fucked them up. Huge amounts of technology were looted from Germany. Who were leading the world in helicopter designs at that time. With helicopter demonstrations pre war inside stadiums. This has allowed our military power to grow nigh exponentially, Because when we went home, we didn't have to rebuild like Europe did with the Marshal Plan. Or like Russia did, and China, and Japan. This is important for knowing what is actually in the arsenal. According to Sun Tzu, secrecy is the most important part of war. There is nothing like a weapon that your enemy has no counter for because he doesn't know it exists, so he can't prepare for it being used anyway. Washington's farewell address: "Beware the dangers of Party." Washington was talking about how party politics can obfuscate the real issues in society by creating a team vs team atmosphere when we should be thinking about what is best for our society as a whole. Partly this is by pitting soldier class and working man class against one another, just as it used to pit the upper middle class against the worker through distortion of information and immediate effects on their pocket books. These Ideas are hard to compress, we could take this off the blog and talk on an actual communication service if you want to discuss this more.

You've got me there man! It would have to be done quickly, and concertedly by grunts on the ground. Using no electronics. To give as little sign as possible. Hey, did you know that in ancient times China was having a problem with pirates, rather than protect their people they recommended that they all move 50 miles inland from the coast. Lolz right!

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Dale Christopher February 13, 2014 at 8:05 am

No, there are so many ways. such as the tsunami going back out to sea, that I don't see a point. If you want the mathematics done for you, ask my sister. [/sarcasm] But no she is really good at math.

When you are raised by a submarine sonar tech, and naval service is almost the only good thing that has happened in his life besides his kids, and he speaks to you 70% in acronyms from work and jargon and military slang; you really are better at conversing in that way. It will make it easier for me to give a concise message, and apparently you turn up your nose to long posts. I don't think anyone actually speaks real english anymore.

Just because you ask the questions you FIND relevant, doesn't mean you'll get the most helpful answer, even if I have it.

That's where catching an idea and forcing it to become real is important. Alertness, The cost of freedom if eternal vigilance. Visualize yourself as something watchful, maybe an eagle full of eyes perhaps.

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Dale Christopher February 13, 2014 at 8:12 am

My blood has been in this country since before the Revolutionary War. I am an eagle scout, I was raised on the stars and stripes. I choose to go to college rather than join up. There is more work to be done for the troops and the nation on the home front than the battle line in this case. So that's where I am.

On these next two your mixing up my words again, do you cheat on your tests like our nuke guys too? Ok, how about the nuclear submarine.

Put the sea floor rise in a natural harbor that faces towards China. Name one person who is specialized in this area of expertise. Can you? Is that because there isn't one? No, most engineers are extremely pompous and self absorbed they just want ideas to make them money and then they take all the credit for the inspiration too. I don't mind them getting credit, but tell it as it is, lying is wrong.

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Dale Christopher February 13, 2014 at 9:02 am

Fire aft torpedo tubes:

This war that will result between us going into conflict will be the bloodiest ever. Do you think the Chinese don't want revenge for the Forgotten Holocaust? Do you have any idea the atrocities they will commit against the Japanese population if they occupy Japan? This is a cost-benefit thing. I would rather see them drown, then tortured to death or beheaded into mass graves like the Japanese did to the Chinese in WWII.

As I stated in my first post, (please use your reading comprehension skills): This is done because it is LESS damaging to the environment. Which is already in really bad shape. China's smog has already crossed the pacific, what happens when the radiation from our strike does? Very bad things right? How much longer before we face a Malthusian Crisis in America? Southern California is already running short on water, and that's our most populous state.

How many times have you eaten at a billionaire's table with him in the room with you? Is it less than one? Cause then you are behind me in that count. [fingers again?] Are going to say that I hallucinated going to a Christmas party with my grandmother?

Yes /THAT/ LaRouche. I had donated money previously, they didn't want me to donate anymore, they wanted me to put my outlined plan into action. I said in the foreword of my book that it was a metaphor for current times. LaRouche's PAC currently promotes rapid scientific growth, bridging the Bearing Sea with a tunnel to allow better trade with Russia and Asia, and colonization of space, among other extremely ambitious ideas; so I'm not alone in my sci-fi outlook on life. LaRouche's PAC is small, so I wouldn't be surprised if he takes calls himself a few times a month, although that was the only time he spoke to me. They were advertising on my college campus LOOKING FOR guys and girls like me. They found one.

Dude I understand we are at loggerheads over my stance on unconventional war. But there is no real need for us to question each other's sanity. Obama is gutting the brass because of the corruption in the military. Are you going to say that a bunch of captains and admirals and generals didn't just get removed from their jobs and I was out of it when I read that news story?

Some of these men have become extremely corrupted by the huge power at their disposal. I have no problems with the creation of such power, only what is done with it. "The root of the evil is not the construction of new, more dreadful weapons. It is the spirit of conquest." -Ludwig von Mises

Reload torpedo tubes, go deep, prepare for second launch.

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Dale Christopher February 13, 2014 at 9:07 am

I was just having fun yo. I'm young, impetuous, and have a messed up sense of humor from a life of many scars. That post was great FYI! The continental plate is already going over the oceanic one, so any separation is extremely unlikely. The Gulf of California will only widen. Are we having fun yet?

Santa was real, he gave three sisters whose father had died gold coins so they wouldn't have to prostitute themselves to survive. No seriously, I don't want to say that you're giving stuff away or you'll go all Oliver North on me.

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Dale Christopher February 13, 2014 at 9:11 am

Also, the fault in California is designated a slip-strike fault. So it would only slide along more, thereby extending Baja California. The spreading faults usually happen at the ocean floor where they move apart and magma seeps up.

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Vers February 14, 2014 at 12:03 am

What sub technology has China stolen from us?

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 1:54 am

"Do you have any idea the atrocities they will commit against the Japanese population if they occupy Japan?" – Yes. But I thought your scenario was one where China nuked the crap out of Japan. And now it's invasion? Do please try to keep you scenarios straight.

"As I stated in my first post, (please use your reading comprehension skills): This is done because it is LESS damaging to the environment." – Yeah, you did state that. I was, however, hoping for some supporting arguments, because it is far from given that a massive tsunami will be less environmentally damaging. Consider:

- The amount of "interesting" stuff that will be washed out to sea when the tsunami withdraws (buildings, cars, bits of oil refineries, dead people) will do the environment no good at all.

/cont./

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 1:54 am

/cont./

- In you scenario, China has thoroughly nuked the neighboring countries. Don't you think it would be a bit late to worry about environmental damage?

- Thermonuclear devices set for airburst (high enough that the fireball doesn't contact the ground) do massive damage due to blast and heat, but leave very little residual radiation or fall-out.

- Nukes can be targeted, tsunamis can't (except in the sense if "to the nearest continent"). I never thought I'd describe nuclear weapons as "surgical", but compared to size of tsunami you are proposing, they are.

"Are you going to say that a bunch of captains and admirals and generals didn't just get removed from their jobs and I was out of it when I read that news story?" – No. Why would I? And how is this relevant to the discussion?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 2:11 am

Oh yeah, and I almost missed this little jewel:

"How many times have you eaten at a billionaire's table with him in the room with you? Is it less than one? Cause then you are behind me in that count." – Oh, well done, bravo, kudos to you, etc., etc..

Now please explain how this is even remotely relevant to:
a) the ongoing discussion
b) anything else

Oh, and if I was supposed to be impressed, I have some disappointing news for you.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 1:58 am

"On these next two your mixing up my words again" – How?

Your words (my emphasis): "Science fiction ALMOST ALWAYS proceeds science fact, partially because there are so many damned authors. It doesn't prove it, testing and observation does that. But it can tell you were to look for an easy, quick, low cost solution. Especially when the engineers are exhausted or have differing findings. Usually ONLY TIMES IT DOESN'T is when the authors…."

So you should have plenty of examples to demonstrate this process.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 2:15 am

"No, most engineers are extremely pompous and self absorbed…."

Look up "pompous" in a dictionary, then read through your posts above, and then tell me, honestly, if you think you are in a position to accuse others of being pompous.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 2:04 am

So because you only speak sonar-tech-speak, the rest of us should as well? This discussion board is not limited to sonar techs, sub drivers or other subgroups, and the language used is English.

"….and apparently you turn up your nose to long posts." – only when 85% of the long posts have no relevance to the subject being discussed.

"I don't think anyone actually speaks real english anymore." – apparently, this includes you (see above).

"Just because you ask the questions you FIND relevant, doesn't mean you'll get the most helpful answer, even if I have it." – No sh*t, Sherlock.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 2:17 am

"If you want the mathematics done for you, ask my sister. [/sarcasm]" – Cool, I'll do that. What's her email? And is she hot?

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 2:07 am

"….while your mind goes round and round Hallie [sic] Berry's butt cheeks." – don't mind if I do [closes eyes, starts humming].

And re. the above exchange on "long posts" – please explain the relevance of the above long post, in the context of the subject under discussion.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Dale Christopher February 14, 2014 at 7:31 am

She's a man eater. Go for it. No I won't make it easier for you to find her.

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Dale Christopher February 14, 2014 at 7:32 am

Yeah, think about it while you sleep with some more prostitutes. "We can't take it anymore, our voices shall be heard." Just another gun jock with no accountability.

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Dale Christopher February 14, 2014 at 7:36 am

Yes. Also marine bomb disposal jargon. No, we speak American technically, haven't you been stationed in England yet?

You forget this amuses me. So I put in extra effort to place gems.

Yes, me included, did I say otherwise? Seeing as no one seems to understand me the first time I speak, and always try to put words in my mouth [or fingertips as it may be].

So ask the right questions then missile jock.

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Dale Christopher February 14, 2014 at 7:40 am

Did I say I wasn't? When you have documentation that you are king's blood on both family sides and people walk up to you on the street sometimes and treat you as if you had the wisdom of the Buddha, and put hands on you and say shit like "I felt the power go out of him." They way it say people did to Jesus. You no only get a little freaked out, you dispense with many things.

Also, non-pompous engineers generally don't get promoted. So there is huge incentive to be so. Especially for negotiation of deals between companies. Although humble engineers are more likely to hit on invention.

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Dale Christopher February 14, 2014 at 7:42 am

Nuclear submarine, satellites, the internet, robots, cloning. And the list goes on and on and on and on, when me and you party together. I wish my memory was infinite and perfectly accurate, then I could have more of the hundreds of examples for you.

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Dale Christopher February 14, 2014 at 7:53 am

A) WTF are we even talking about, as far as I can tell you are blowing off steam because you haven't figured out how to masturbate properly yet.

A1)
This is relevant to you calling out my sanity by saying that I was pretty well out of it when I called LaRouche PAC for the 5th time. NOT ONLY HAVE I BEEN CONTACTED BY ONE FAMOUS BILLIONAIRE, Lyndon LaRouche, BUT I'M PRACTICALLY THE CLOSE FAMILY OF ANOTHER. How do you think LaRouche felt when he found out that, not only is this kid willing to fight for me and what is right; BUT HE IS ALREADY CONNECTED TO THE CIRCLE OF PEOPLE THAT I KEEP A CONSTANT WATCHDOG ON BECAUSE ONLY I [LaRouche] SIT IN THE SAME GROUPS AND HEAR THE SAME DISCUSSIONS. Stop thinking that I'm lording my association over you. I'm trying to show you WHY I am who I am and WHY I would think the things I do. Also WHY LaRouche hasn't sent me a Cease and Desist Letter for talking about him.

B) Yo mamma? What am I supposed to say to that?

Why would I want to impress you again? Do you think your rank or how good you are with a gun or math would impress me? Or who takes your orders? Cause I don't take your orders.

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Dale Christopher February 14, 2014 at 7:53 am

the star part is hand crotch related.

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 4:48 pm

"This is relevant to you calling out my sanity by saying that I was pretty well out of it when I called LaRouche…."

[sigh] – I wrote: "If so, I think you were well out of it", meaning that when LaRouche told you that your help was no longer needed, you were lucky to be out of it. Note that nothing there questions your sanity – almost on the contrary.

But for the record, having dinner with a billionaire, or being related to one, does not by any means guarantee sanity. And after your above rant….well, one does start to wonder….

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Dale Christopher February 14, 2014 at 8:04 am

It's never too late.

A missile rain similar to what we used on Libya, But scaled up for Japan could do similar damage.

No you are wrong, if anything that makes it worse for the environment. The ground would be easier to advance over cause the radiation would just blow away. That's why atmospheric tests are outlawed internationally and we test underground now. The only way an airburst would be significantly less damaging is if it is in the far outer atmosphere cause then lots of radiation will escape earth.
Like say if we were using nukes in our missile shield rather than this "bullet with a bullet thing." But that's why China is building it's missiles to fly low. they could easily over power our missile defense battery otherwise.

Did someone close to you drown in a surfing accident? What do you have against tsunamis? I just told you a way to target it, but you didn't want to listen. YOU HAVE TO WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH. OTHERWISE YOUR BRAIN WILL BELIEVE WHAT SUITS IT BEST. This is proven science. The brain invents memories it WANTS TO HAVE.

When the German's first used chemical weapons in WWI they couldn't target them well either, but they still used them.

I think the greater danger is that China will try to use something like this against us, as they are more desperate, and have more targets to hit. Also, while they would only have to go one way (out from the continent) We would have to worry about our allies.

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Dale Christopher February 14, 2014 at 8:10 am

They have bunkers in Japan, conquering fiends do terrible things to last survivors. Yes, after nuke. You must occupy the largest islands in the first island chain for airports and gun positions. Did you think they would sink back under the water from a few nukes?

Wouldn't be worse than the gulf spill. I didn't think that it would be a positive thing. Remember almost nothing that happens in war is positive.

I considered it. I also knew the factors. El Fin.

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Dale Christopher February 14, 2014 at 8:15 am

No seriously go blow your measly pay.

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Dale Christopher February 14, 2014 at 8:16 am

Also, if you can't SEE the relevance of such words for preventing nuclear war. You're done.

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 4:55 pm

Well, I'm happy to see that, if nothing else, your debating skills have improved as a consequence of our exchange.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 4:42 pm

"YOU HAVE TO WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH."

WELL YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

"This is proven science" – then by all means, show the proof.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 5:10 pm

"I just told you a way to target it…." – well, OK, if your idea of "targeting" is "moving only in one direction after initiation", then yes, you have. My definition of "targeting" is slightly different.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 14, 2014 at 4:54 pm

"When you have documentation that you are king's blood on both family sides and people walk up to you on the street sometimes and treat you as if you had the wisdom of the Buddha, and put hands on you and say **** like "I felt the power go out of him." They way it say people did to Jesus. You no only get a little freaked out, you dispense with many things."

Are you referring to yourself, here? About the "blood of kings", "wisdom of Buddha", laying of hands, comparison to Jesus, etc.? Because I'd really like confirmation on that point.

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg

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Dale Christopher February 17, 2014 at 11:02 am

I can handle the truth, I apparently have more that you do. The truth is we live in a world with walls, and those walls are manned by the most destructive monsters imaginable, and sometimes humans aren't even in the loop anymore.

I'm not going to be your research monkey. Go look it up. This is open source material.

You're done, now little boy, this conversation is terminated. Go play with your toys.

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Dale Christopher February 17, 2014 at 11:03 am

Yes, South Chinese coast counts as targeting with a weapon of this magnitude.

Conversation terminated, there will be no further replies.

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Dale Christopher February 17, 2014 at 11:06 am

I was providing examples to show you why this would be true. Did you forget the line: "Just tell us how it's going to be." I'm telling. Your ears apparently can't hear. Mary Todd Lincoln spent time in an insane asylum and there was nothing wrong with her. You're just a word twister, I've dealt with your bullying kind a hundred different times in circles with military members and vets.

Conversation terminated, no further replies will be given.

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Dale Christopher February 17, 2014 at 11:16 am

Yes and that concludes our discussion. I hope you have understood the relevance of my words in a society with a civilian controlled military, which has grown powerful enough to nearly defeat all unallied nations on earth at once if it wasn't concerned with occupation after annihilation. We hold our own destruction in our hands. If we can't force foreign opponents to maintain at peace through proper strategic management then although the nation will survive, the land it sits on will be unable to support life.

Conversation terminated, no further replies will be made.

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Thomas L. Nielsen February 18, 2014 at 2:00 am

"….an angry seditious peasant like you…."

"….you are clearly dark side…."

Darn, he's on to me!

[quickly hides sinister, black hooded cloak, lightsaber and the latest issue of "Angry Seditious Peasant Monthly" in a desk drawer].

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Angry, seditious peasant
Dark Side apprentice
Luxembourg

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