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Edited by Christian Lowe | Contact

Marines Quiet About Brutal New Weapon

War is hell. But it’s worse when the Marines bring out their new urban combat weapon, the SMAW-NE. Which may be why they’re not talking about it, much.

This is a version of the standard USMC Shoulder Mounted Assault Weapon but with a new warhead. Described as NE - "Novel Explosive"- it is a thermobaric mixture which ignites the air, producing a shockwave of unparalleled destructive power, especially against buildings.

smaw-ne sequence.JPGA post-action report from Iraq describes the effect of the new weapon: "One unit disintegrated a large one-storey masonry type building with one round from 100 meters. They were extremely impressed." Elsewhere it is described by one Marine as "an awesome piece of ordnance."

It proved highly effective in the battle for Fallujah. This from the Marine Corps Gazette, July edition: "SMAW gunners became expert at determining which wall to shoot to cause the roof to collapse and crush the insurgents fortified inside interior rooms."

The NE round is supposed to be capable of going through a brick wall, but in practice gunners had to fire through a window or make a hole with an anti-tank rocket. Again, from the Marine Corps Gazette:

"Due to the lack of penetrating power of the NE round, we found that our assaultmen had to first fire a dual-purpose rocket in order to create a hole in the wall or building. This blast was immediately followed by an NE round that would incinerate the target or literally level the structure."

The rational for this approach was straightforward:

"Marines could employ blast weapons prior to entering houses that had become pillboxes, not homes. The economic cost of house replacement is not comparable to American lives...all battalions adopted blast techniques appropriate to entering a bunker, assuming you did not know if the bunker was manned."

The manufacturers, Talley, make bold use of its track record, with a brochure headlined Thermobaric Urban Destruction."

The SMAW-NE has only been procured by the USMC, though there are reports that some were 'borrowed' by other units. However, there are also proposals on the table that thousands of obsolete M-72 LAWs could be retrofitted with thermobaric warheads, making then into effective urban combat tools.

But in an era of precision bombs, where collateral damage is expected to be kept to a minimum, such massively brutal weapons have become highly controversial. These days, every civilian casualty means a few more “hearts and minds” are lost. Thermobaric weapons almost invariable lead to civilian deaths. The Soviet Union was heavily criticized for using thermobaric weapons in Afghanistan because they were held to constitute "disproportionate force," and similar criticisms were made when thermobarics were used in the Chechen conflict. According to Human Rights Watch, thermobaric weapons "kill and injure in a particularly brutal manner over a wide area. In urban settings it is very difficult to limit the effect of this weapon to combatants, and the nature of FAE explosions makes it virtually impossible for civilians to take shelter from their destructive effect."

So it’s understandable that the Marines have made so little noise about the use of the SMAW-NE in Fallujah. But keeping quiet about controversial weapons is a lousy strategy, no matter how effective those arms are. In the short term, it may save some bad press. In the long term, it’s a recipe for a scandal. Military leaders should debate human right advocates and the like first, and then publicly decide "we do/do not to use X". Otherwise when the media find do find out – as they always do -- not only do you get a level of hysteria but there is also the charge of “covering up.”

I'm undecided about thermobarics myself, but I think they should let the legal people sort out all these issues and clear things up. Otherwise you get claims of “chemical weapons” and “violating the Geneva Protocol.” Which doesn't really help anyone. The warfighter is left in doubt, and it hands propaganda to the bad guys. Just look at what happened it last week’s screaming over white phosphorous rounds.

-- David Hambling

THERE'S MORE: Americans aren’t the only ones with these weapons. The Chinese, the Russians -- even guerilla groups -- now have thermobarics' shockingly destructive power in their grasps.

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Posted by: replicashoes at October 23, 2008 09:32 PM


ye you idiots !!!! a bully bulls when you are not grown, we have grown and be warned.

Posted by: fuc u at September 4, 2008 12:30 AM


you all need to wake the hell up, its a damn weapon! so is an M16 a .45 pistol, an m67 gernade. they all do the same thing, kill! they all have the capability to take life, hostile or not. yes some are more effective than others but these are things that you cannot possibly understand unless you are there, unless you are in the military, this life is entirley different than what you are used to. we signed a contract saying we will take up this life and make sure that you dont have to. so we can only expect you not to understand. no one is trying to kill innocent people that is never an objective in any mission, its just war and no one can eliminate the accidents or terrible things that happen in such an environment, every war has been the same way. war is hell and its the devil dog's territory let them handle it before our enemies come over here again.

Posted by: Warhead at August 17, 2008 04:13 AM


would be far less likely to cause massive damage than, say, an artillery barrage, or an airstrike. Nothing controversial about the other two, so there shouldn't be anything controversial about this.

Posted by: Portable Media Player at June 15, 2008 09:10 PM


There's a thermobaric warhead (either Russian or Bulgarian) for the RPG7 that is apparently equivalent to a 122mm artillery round.
Flash MP4 Players

Posted by: Portable Media Player at June 15, 2008 09:09 PM


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Posted by: Jeff at June 10, 2008 06:38 AM


Why does it matter if the Geneva rules are followed? our enemies don't, so why should we. They don't care how many civilians they kill, why should we. So far as I'm concerned ALL Iraqis can die a horrible death, it won't hurt my feelings one little bit. If it was up to me, the first foot soldier would never have touched ground over there, the entire middle east would have been one big hunk of fused glass on 9\12, had it been up to me. None of those bleeps are worth a damn, neither is that entire area. Nuke em and be done with it, and nuke anybody that doesn't like it.

Posted by: tootall at May 28, 2008 04:43 AM


People are not tender satisfied with all types of moving services. A simple mistake will have them complaining and long their

money back. In adjunct, they will not avail of that equivalent service again.

Posted by: Air Freight Forwarder at May 26, 2008 03:04 AM


Quite the intellectual bunch. There is a saying that best describes this whole argument about warfare. War is hell.

Why would we want it otherwise? War should be a horrible bloody affair that drenches our memories in mountains of gore.

It should be the most horrendous nightmare packed full of pestilence and disease.

Bombs should be huge and kill the innocent as well as the combatants in a non discriminatory manner.

And when it hurts enough and costs enough then perhaps we will be less willing to wage it.

Posted by: Sean at May 23, 2008 05:41 PM


Analogy: It is not a very scary thing to fight a big guy with boxing gloves and all the rules of boxing. However it is horrifying to get in the ring with a big guy bare knuckle NO Rules No holds barred.

Posted by: 寫字樓傢俬 at May 21, 2008 10:07 AM


First off if your a civillian and the marines are using this weapon you are a dumb motherfucker for even being there. I f you are you are a terrorist or in support of terrorist point blank.

Secondly in ww2 they carpetr bombed citys.......all sides. Fire weapons caused more deaths than the nukes. [Tokyo] even after the first was dropped the emporor still did not surrender. so we had to drop another.;

the point is when your in a long bulshit war it dosnt matter what you use to end it as long as it ends

Posted by: john miller at May 15, 2008 10:02 AM


In any case, I'm glad to see they took it down finally.

Posted by: mini storage at May 14, 2008 04:53 AM


I am uncertain whether this means the left should turn ts back on the poor, or whether it should turn its back on egalitarianism. Either way, it' not going to happen.


I am certain it didn't mean either one. The point very clearly was about the conflation of the ideals, not the abandonment of either one. Strawmen very rarely bring evidence and rationality to any debate, but I applaud your skill with the matches ...

And on a different note, I think am nearly certain that Tyler's irony wasn't comletely lost on almost all of the readers of this post....

Posted by: Overseas Removal at May 6, 2008 05:36 AM


Dennis Kucinich+ Gimli+9/11=Conspiracy?

Posted by: A.Smith at April 25, 2008 08:06 PM


SMAW-NE doesn't seem "brutal" or "barbaric." Dead by extreme SMAW-NE over-pressure is the same as dead by artillery barrage, is the same as dead by cruise missile, is the same as...etc. SMAW is more target-specific than other options which minimizes collateral damage/casualties?

Posted by: 辦公室傢俬 at April 22, 2008 02:02 AM


I am not at all impressed with the terrible weapons of death used by American war criminals in the illegal war against the innocent Iraqi people. For death comes to use all sooner or later. What impresses me though is the stupidity of young American men and women who unneccesarily fight, get wounded and die as proxy soldiers for big oil and Israel. Every American soldier who was and is in Iraq today has had some exposure to DU aerosols. Sooner or later many if not all will succumb to this extremely deadly poison. An early death is a given for those who foolishly ventured to fight in Iraq. American soldiers showed no mercy nor will they receive mercy as the minute quantities of radiation eat away at their bodies. DU is the great leveler

Posted by: 家務助理 at April 22, 2008 02:00 AM


For all of you people who are quick to judge and don't even research the truth, who are to quick to believe what they want to here and not the Truth. I am a 0351 Assultman With the United States Marines and this weapon in the article is my primary weapon. First of all if your still reading this still, we are not allowed to fire this rocket in a civilian areas, its not like we are running through the town like its Fucking 4th of July. Last tour my unit made we never even used them. SO TO EVERY ONE OF YOU WHO THINK THAT MY FRIENDS DIED OVER THERE FOR NO REASON AND ALL YOU CAN SAY IS NOTHING BUT TO MOCK THE ONES WHO STILL FIGHT EVERY DAY AND LOOK FORWARD TO THE DAY THEY CAN COME HOME AND SEE THERE FAMILIES WIVES "IF THEY ARE STILL HERE WHEN THEY GET BACK" ALL OF YOU WHO DONT SUPPORTS US THE TROUPS, I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE WAR BUT THE PEOPLE WHO GO THERE AND STAND UP FOR SOMETHING THEY BELIEVE IN, IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT US. FUCK YOU!!!!

Posted by: a414669 at April 14, 2008 08:29 PM


I think people creating such weapon should shut their kids and parents first testing his creature, ony having pain people can feel what they bring in world.

Any weapon is bulshit and nothing else, and soldjers are stupir mutherfuckers

Posted by: Duman at April 9, 2008 04:28 AM


In any case, I'm glad to see they took it down finally.

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Posted by: ami at February 17, 2008 08:16 AM


what a set of fucktards, china's gonna own u all

Posted by: igoturnumber pal at February 15, 2008 09:46 AM


im sorry but its shoulder fired multipurpose assault weapon. in the marine version there is 4 different kinds of rockets. i have read where ppl have said it is inhumane because civilians cant hide from the blast. its not like it is just being fired indisciminately assaultman are well trained it is our primary weapon we would never fire a rocket into a building that might have civilians in it the chance of giving away a position or not having effect on target is to great we dont carry enough to just send them down range. thank you

Posted by: Marc at February 10, 2008 02:31 PM


To any americans out there i'm a true 0351 assaultman in the UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS eeerrrrrr i know and love the shoulder launched multipurpose assault weapon and the NE or thermobaric round is in fact a great advance in shoulder launched rockets however that not what i have to say I would just like to say a little something to all those that apose the U.S. the MARINE CORPS IS HERE AND STANDING TALL SO KEEP ON TRYING TO FUCK AROUND WITH THE UNITED STATES AND ME AND MY BROTHERS WILL BE PAYING YOU A VISIT AND MAYBE JUST MAYBE I WILL GIVE YOU A TASTE OF THAT THERMOBARIC ROCKET

Posted by: 0351 at January 22, 2008 10:14 PM


A un named source told me that the Russians pre-developed a missle shoulder fire system similar to this a few months ago. We think they stole it from the net off of a Wichitaw,Ks base Us MIl website. It is good to see we have a newer weapon vs. the law or the anti tank rounds that is a high explosive velocity to match the weapons technology of the enemy in the USSR. It was our technology in the first place. It shows how if we advertise some stuff too much on the net, the enemy can pre-develop it in their labs overseas. I am glad to see our scientists have predeveloped the lethal round in a shoulder fire system. the law makes a quick pop and no horrific blast when it is fired. This is no pussy weapon. It will clear out a platton of troops if aimed right. Horraahh!!!!!!!

Posted by: Max Anderson at January 20, 2008 11:52 PM


hey walter this test sucks man

Posted by: john at December 17, 2007 02:02 PM


hey walter john comment back

Posted by: john at December 4, 2007 02:10 PM


i was in the vetnam war and faught it was a bloodie mess and i lost my son in the war and all ya'll sons of a bitchs aginst americans can kiss your own ass all i have to say is fuck ya'll.

Posted by: jack at December 3, 2007 02:23 PM


i was in war once killed all you bastards haha

Posted by: john at December 3, 2007 02:20 PM


hahahah bitch ya started wars with us listen here we dont back down bitches so our military will kick any ones ass who messes with us or our allies so what then bitch comment back to me.
all ya suck american balls if ya fuck with us BITCHES

Posted by: john at December 3, 2007 02:19 PM


hahahah bitch ya started wars with us listen here we dont back down bitches so our military will kick any ones ass who messes with us or our allies so what then bitch comment back to me.
all ya suck american balls if ya fuck with us BITCHES

Posted by: john at December 3, 2007 02:18 PM


hahahah bitch ya started wars with us listen here we dont back down bitches so our military will kick any ones ass who messes with us or our allies so what then bitch comment back to me.
all ya suck american balls if ya fuck with us BITCHES

Posted by: johnny at December 3, 2007 02:18 PM


As an OR6 British soldier that has experience fighting in both Afghanistan and Iraq alongside Americans, I feel that I am qualified to voice my opinion.

Firstly the development and use of better weapons systems can and does save lives. As long as those weapons systems are used in a conscientious manner by soldiers on the battlefield (which most do).

People are people no matter what race, creed or religion they are. Both the UK and US are now multicultural societies and we have to live with that whether we like it or not. There are bad people in the world and good and you can't usually tell just by looking at them (sometimes you can).

If Thermobaric weapons mean that the airstrike that'll flatten a few houses, potentially killing innocents doesn't have to happen, then use them.

If you wish to kill American or UK civilians and soldiers, or torture foreign innocents to get your way - Stand by MF, we're coming for you!

Posted by: Squaddie at December 3, 2007 07:38 AM


Hey i am american and we did nothing wrong to any one accept set ya straight so why dont ya shut yas fucking mouth ok ya faggots messed with th wrong force have a great day ty

13 male

Posted by: john at November 29, 2007 02:47 PM


Hey i am american and we did nothing wrong to any one accept set ya straight so why dont ya shut yas fucking mouth ok ya faggots messed with th wrong force have a great day ty

13 male u.s.a Rocks john tillman

Posted by: john at November 29, 2007 02:46 PM


Hey i am american and we did nothing wrong to any one accept set ya straight so why dont ya shut yas fucking mouth ok ya faggots messed with th wrong force have a great day ty

13 male u.s.a Rocks john tillman

Posted by: john at November 29, 2007 02:45 PM


Hey i am american and we did nothing wrong to any one accept set ya straight so why dont ya shut yas fucking mouth ok ya faggots messed with th wrong force have a great day ty

13 male u.s.a Rocks

Posted by: john at November 29, 2007 02:45 PM


all yall who are aganst americans can kiss my ass. go americans

Posted by: walter at November 29, 2007 02:44 PM


Hey i am american and we did nothing wrong to any one accept set ya straight so why dont ya shut yas fucking mouth ok ya faggots messed with th wrong force have a great day ty

13 male u.s.a Rocks

Posted by: john at November 29, 2007 02:44 PM


u all suckers!!!!!! pinoy

Posted by: brian at November 22, 2007 11:25 PM


anyone who says america is evil, and is bent on taking over the world is ignorant. yes we have destructive weapons. yes there are civilian cashualties. im not saying that civilian cashualties are to be expected, but this is a war people, whether you like it or not, and to pretend like we are always going to get the bad guys and save the good guys is foolish. if you know anything about american history, you will know that everytime we enter a country, we aren't tyrants in the land. In kuwait, we helped establish an army that could repel Iraq's attacks after the first gulf war. in venezuela we created antidrug units, completely operated by venezualens. every time there is a natural disaster, we rush to the rescue and save lives. you say america is evil and stupid one day, but plead for us to come to the rescue when a tsunami or earthquake occurs. america is good

Posted by: america at October 3, 2007 11:02 PM


Americans are a dieing breed and the CIA regulated cocaine during the cocaine era and sold it to the American people, u americans prefer drugs being sold to your kids to keep your mutual funds going. I ain't saying i hate americans but u guys elect corrupt presidents. One congresswomen was against the war on Iraq and warned of the consequences but no one listened to her. Those of your presidents that weren't part of the skull and bones secret society were killed. Including JFK who was a good president that actually workd for the American people.

Posted by: abdullah at September 21, 2007 02:29 PM


When did America decide killing civilians was a problem.. was it after we wiped out entire races in North America, cooked 25,000 people alive in their homes in Dresden, or nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki? At least we won those wars.

Posted by: J at September 20, 2007 10:12 PM


I'M AMERICAN
SON OF A BITCH EUROPEAN
EUROPEAN IS PIG
DO YOU WANT A CAPPUCCINO???
DO YOU WANT A MAN'S PENIS???
EUROPEAN IS MURDERER
FUCKING E.U.

Posted by: FUCK at September 17, 2007 05:31 AM


Scout, some information from your "brothers in arms" http://www.ivaw.org/faq

Posted by: Mike at September 13, 2007 12:00 PM


Just wanted to say that your days are over americans.
You are all so fucked up by your governemnt that you can't even think for yourselves anymore.

I'll give the opninion of the rest of the world:

YOU ARE LOSER ON THE BRINK OF EXTINCTION!!!!

Bye =)

Posted by: Michael at September 13, 2007 06:40 AM


Thermobaric weapons are an advance in war technology but they are troubling because of their propensity to kill and maim civilians - like chemical weapons or cluster bombs. If we use weapons that kill civilians indiscriminately aren't we behaving like terrorists? I hope the USMC can develop guidelines for this weapon to keep civilian deaths to an absolute minimum.

Posted by: Bruce at September 11, 2007 01:57 AM


Hey, i have some draws i may want a weapon tec to look at, its maby by interest, i want someone to look at my drawings, an maby realise them!!! I have the pictures on my PC, yust ask so shall i send them.

Posted by: Tomme at September 10, 2007 09:38 AM


For all you assholes in America who don't stand united under the stars and stripes i only have this to say to you. GET THE FUCK OUT!!!! And if you have not earned your right to be an american by fighting for it supporting it by putting your own life on the line i believe you shouldn't have the right to vote, or be in any congressional position in this country. how many members of congress do we have today who have honorably served this country?? and how many have a son, daughter or loved one over seas??? before these assholes critisizes what me and my brothers in arms are doing why don't you earn your right of your freedom of speech. yes this country can fall i do agree with that but it will only fall if the assholes who continually let the enemy now that we don't support our troops. the same thing happend in vietnam. no i wasn't born in those years. but i am here now and yes i have shed my own blood and watched my brothers give there lives in falluja first hand. DID MY BROTHERS GIVE THERE LIVES IN VAIN???? some wack jobs like fred phelps would like to make you believe so. its assholes like this who are a descrase to america. they reap the benefits of this great country with out ever defending it.

Posted by: Scout at September 1, 2007 04:43 PM


Troy how dare you. You would stoop to the enemy's level?
And besides the enemy is a very questionable subject here. Our best bet is to get out. Secure our borders and fix our intelligence. Instead of give it more powers, make it more efficient with the powers it has, and I mean had before this tyrannical bull-crap. I'm an American and I don't want this nation to fall. I want this Administration to fall. And I won't be killing them to get the job done like Troy probably would considering his barbaric comment.

I understand they, the insurgents, are doing anything they can to keep us out of their country so any weapon is valuable to them. They are revolutionaries, look at the definition of insurgents, and we call them terrorists?!! That's why we need to get out BEFORE IT LEAVES A MUSHROOM CLOUD HAHAHAHAHA. Fuck...

Posted by: Stephen Roth at August 27, 2007 02:38 AM


War is HELL! I am a vet so don't sit there and say I don't know what I am talking about. I have seen this weapon in action and know its power. Let me ask this...if the enemy had this do you think they would worry about civilian casualties? No. They would use it to make those casualties. If you are fired upon and have this weapon in your arsenol you bet your sweet ass you will use it.

Posted by: Troy at August 25, 2007 11:15 PM


To all those living outside the USA:

You are correct; America is declining and declining fast and will fall just as Rome fell. Please forgive my fellow Americans for the unthoughtful, rude, and arrogant comments they make for they don't know what they're saying. They're blinded by pride and bloodshed and I'm ashamed they say such things. America is the Constitution and that's it... there are many of us in America trying hard to preserve that. Washington told us not to get into tangling alliances and to trade with everyone... not to go to war, without even declaring war, as we please.

Posted by: Terces at August 24, 2007 02:01 PM


For your country war is the way to hide the real motivation for a invation (steahl oil, for example)
Your president wash your brains... and u think that it's fare destroy a village just in case... it's sad.
I'm afraid because in the future, when water will be a real probel, you will find any excusse to invade countrys like Argentina, Brazil or Chile... and kill us all... and the common people of USA will think that it was right

Posted by: Ismael at August 24, 2007 01:05 PM


USA is almost over as all bully empires always finish. Your leaders lie you into war over and over for financial gain and power.ie Vietnam, Iraq, killing millions. When the violence comes home you are outraged. Dozy! You have over 700 military bases around the world. Do you really believe you need them to protect your "country?" Americans are from Puritan stock, crying in the night at the great forests, afraid of every shadow. It really shows in your history. ie Peoples History of the United States by Howard Zinn

Posted by: Dr.J. Gobbler at August 24, 2007 12:02 PM


That should help with the housing market!

Posted by: Iraq War Vet at August 23, 2007 11:33 AM


OMG im guessing mainly pro war, im half and half. the poeple who go out saying kill them all well, one day i pray to god it will happen to you and your family and then see you say what you say! people fight with sticks and stones and the usa retaliates with wmd and nerve agents, then robs the country dry and says we are helping? omg are most americans retarded or is it lack of education? why do americans find it good and fun to go to war, bing all hyped up.

well as every mighty country it has its high and then comes the low! america is at its high and is makeing a very very steep low! its a shame realy that the government has let you down and you fail to do anything about it!

i feel sorry for all the people who have no heart to think of thoes in suffering! if it was up to be id be superman and smash thy bush face, then thy used my super stregth against you and see how you would feel! bet youd say its not fair! well same way goes! america is a bully henc why so many hate

Posted by: in your face at July 19, 2007 05:16 PM


OMG im guessing mainly pro war, im half and half. the poeple who go out saying kill them all well, one day i pray to god it will happen to you and your family and then see you say what you say! people fight with sticks and stones and the usa retaliates with wmd and nerve agents, then robs the country dry and says we are helping? omg are most americans retarded or is it lack of education? why do americans find it good and fun to go to war, bing all hyped up.

well as every mighty country it has its high and then comes the low! america is at its high and is makeing a very very steep low! its a shame realy that the government has let you down and you fail to do anything about it!

Posted by: Dark Lord at July 19, 2007 04:38 PM


Here's a picture of this type of weapon being used in Lebanon in 2006.
http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,677918,00.jpg

Posted by: S at July 5, 2007 05:56 AM


I was reading through this and Christopher Karel brought up a good point about weapons and there morality being debated before deployment but what about the Air Force's new thermobaric bomb. After all that is what the SMAW-NE is based off of. so what do you guys think about the use of a 2000 lb. thermobaric bomb in Afghanistan. This is some thing I feel should also be discussed.

Posted by: Tony E. at February 27, 2007 11:58 AM


Once a war has begun, the only sensible debate is how to win it effectively and with the least bloodshed. This particular BDM is effective; and while one may bemoan collateral losses any pragmatist knows that a war zone is a war zone. Plenty of things detonating out there. I don't quite understand the fervor over this or that particular type of explosion - seems simple. Blow up bad guys. Mk 19 40mm gl pretty destructive too - want to ban that? Stupid.

Posted by: Jeremy at February 15, 2007 02:13 AM


Great weapon and concept!
To all the bleeding heart liberals out there, you fight them there or fight them here! Which one do you want?? Get the Politicians and Media out of there and let the Military do what they do best. KILL!
Things should be censored like they were in WW II. Only let the public know what is necessary. Now, it seems like the Politicians and Media are trying to undermine the good old US of A! What ever happened to the "let's pull together and get the job done" attitude!

Posted by: Neg at February 11, 2007 05:09 PM


If you use the main concept of the warhead but eliminate the launcher/propellant section of the rocket and turn it into a little nasty bomb, how many can be stuffed into a B-52 attack group?
F 'em all. For every nasty little cocksucker that takes up arms against the American forces and gets captured or killed we should identify him by name and then wipe his whole villiage of origin off the face of the map, no matter what country it is in. Then bomb its respective capital as punishment for not preventing it.

Posted by: Chris B at January 31, 2007 02:43 PM


Great weapon to lessen deaths to our troops. Any pill box or house containing combatants is fair game. As to the question of why we are there half way around the world: We are there because if we were not there, they would be here sooner. It is better to make the poor terrorist bastards die for Mohammad and collect their 70 preteen virgins whom they can abuse for eternity, than let the little goat molesters fulfill their fantasy of killing us.

Posted by: Sidney Williams MD at January 27, 2007 09:36 PM


this kind of warhead has its use but civilian casualities MUST be avoided, a shockwave weapon only with limited range and power (programable warhead) could be better.

And if USA wants to win, stop using drugs with the troops like in afganistan and be less happy trigger, your cowboy aproach dont work.

Posted by: buba at January 24, 2007 05:37 PM


as far as the weapon goes great for the corp...we sit here and talk about the morality of using it..ask the guy who lost his legs to the nail filled IED. anybody that has gone to war knows its brutal,bloody and messy we should use whatever resources we have to bring our brothers and sisters home in one piece.

Posted by: mike at January 15, 2007 04:46 PM


Hey, Sgt USMC, are you saying that you have to be willing to kill, or at least help others kill, in order to have an opinion on the morality of killing? Man, what kind of jarhead hooyah crap has the core been feeding you?

This is a seriously cool weapon, both for its' power and for the simplicity of the concept. War would be a serious BLAST(pun intended) if nobody got hurt.

Posted by: Pete at January 14, 2007 07:23 AM


What are we doing in a country halfway around the world? Don't we have enough shit to worry about here? Nice weapon, kill sand niggers.

Posted by: Kevin at January 12, 2007 01:31 AM


Yeah, maybe it's time you all realize the truth. Pacifying a people who have been fighting amongst themselves for THOUSANDS of years is not possible. They will fight because they always have and they don't know what else to do. We are fighting people who would love to come to America and kill our citizens. Funny how we are seen as the problem when the majority of the attacks as of late are against IRAQI CIVILIANS and IRAQI GOVERNMENT WORKERS! When we use this weapon, it is an obvious obstacle to the rapid destruction of this terrible and ridiculous band of thugs. As for "beenthere," being in the brig for 23 days doesn't enhance your credibility, it just shows what type of Marine you were. I've met many like you, you all deserve the brig. We do what we are told to do. We are told to end the insurgency in Iraq. We will do that to the best of our ability. When you try to end an ideology, it lends to ending the live of ideological fanatics. People who do not respect who they fight or know what they truly are doing. What are the insurgents in Iraq doing? We haven't lost enough men in the WHOLE WAR as a bad WEEK in Vietnam! They are merely causes enough strife to keep the news going. In my opinion, change over the power to the Iraqis, let them kill each other, as they have been, and defend against attacks where we need to. Help get Africa out of it's backwardness. But we need to leave Iraq with an idea that we did what we could, that we deposed the dictator and that there was little we coudl do to stop the fanaticism. Simple.

Posted by: IsThere at December 13, 2006 07:52 PM


One should not truly discuss war and the right or wrong of it if he or she doesn't possess the balls to involve one's self in it and gain first hand experience. And as far as what military is better, "If you bleed with me you are my brother" thats all that matters.

Posted by: SGT USMC at October 26, 2006 11:44 PM


It never ceases to amaze me how these post stay sofar from the central question to include everything from: weather or not we should be in Iraq to armageddon to who has the longest basic training? I am suprised no1 has yet worked in a good Bar-B-Q rib recipe. Considering the weapon in question.

The question was: What do u think of the new Urban weapon? I 4 one, love it. Why? Because, once the boots hit the ground, the people wearing them deserve our full support. This includes any innovation that will help them to continue to wear these boots after they have come into contact with those who wish to kill them.

Posted by: tjmosa at October 15, 2006 10:39 PM


Hey KJS:
You brave Israelis' and your lickspittle Kwan jannissaries are going to be in for a lot more than thermobaric weapons. Lets see how you like it.

Posted by: Jim at September 4, 2006 10:09 PM


That's a pretty amazing piece of hardware. Excellent for MOUT Operations. I suppose the US Army will equip it´s personnel with the NE round. I can see great use for it even in special operations. Imagine the firepower available for a SF detachment,and everybody else for that matter, if one could use the NE on the Santa Barbara. I'm European and I got to say this to the US : Keep investigating, keep fighting for you have been the west's spearhead. We in Europe are not aware yet that war is upon us...at least our politicians and human rights intellectuals are not...Keep fighting

Posted by: Maverick at August 12, 2006 05:14 PM


whoever spoke there in big caps.
i didtn read it.

you know the rules and you broke it.

i am sorry, maybe you had something interesting to say, but you broke it.

Posted by: fronten at August 1, 2006 06:45 PM


Let's hope the IDF/IAF uses tons of these in Lebanon.

Posted by: kjs at July 19, 2006 05:32 PM


We invade someone else's country, then get mad because they kill some of us! Amazing! Americans are arrogant, ignorant butchers of the world. Hopefully, someday the same things we have been inflicting on third world people will be inflicted on our people, in the spirit of what goes around, comes around. Imagine a little napalm used on american cities and towns, the way we used it in viet nam, or a 500 pound precision bomb dropped on the ny stock exchange the way we drop them all over villages in Iraq and Afghanistan, or one of the above "novel exposives" used at a football stadium, rather than a building in Iraq. I guess that would be unfair, as only we and the Is-piss jews get to use those weapons.

Posted by: Pauli at July 12, 2006 08:14 PM


JUST A SIGN OF THE TIMES. WE ARE IN THE LAST DAYS OF HOW WE KNOW THE WORLD. IN A MATTER OF TIME THIS WORLD AS WE KNOW IT WILL CHANGE BEFORE OUR VERY EYES AND WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN.WHETHER PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD OR NOT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY CALL OUT HIS NAME BEFORE THEIR LAST BREATH AND THOSE THAT DON'T WILL BOW AND CONFESS BEFORE HIM AFTER THEIR LAST BREATHS.THINGS ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE ON THIS EARTH AS LONG AS MEN OR WOMEN TRY TO CONTROL THEIR OWN DESTINIES.IF WE THINK THINGS ARE TERRIBLE NOW, WAIT AND SEE JUST HOW BAD THEY ARE GONNA BE IN THE NEXT YEAR OR SO. WE ARE ONLY IN THE BIRTH PAINS OF THINGS TO COME. OUR GREAT GRANDFATHERS THOUGHT THINGS WERE BAD DURING THE LAST DEPRESSION, IT WAS NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT'S COMING NEXT.WE HAD A GREAT DEAL MORE MORALITY THEN THAN NOW. WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN WITH THIS GENERATION OF NO MORALS WHEN THINGS GET BAD. DO YOU THINK THEY'LL JUST GO SOMEWHERE ELSE AND FIND A JOB TO SUPPORT THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES. NO THEY WILL KILL ONE ANOTHER AND EAT THE FLESH OF THEIR OWN FAMILIES. YES IT'S GONNA GET THAT BAD. GOD HELP US. WE HAVE HAD THIS COMING FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW. WHAT WE HAVE SOWN WE ARE ABOUT REAP.

Posted by: LUCIUS R. JORDAN at July 12, 2006 07:34 AM


Either fight the damned war or don't. Whether we blow up countless civilians or not, they're going to hate us. Screw 'em. Our guys are sent there to do a job & tying their hands & wringing our own hands about how they're doing their job & whether they're killing people or hurting their feelings isn't going to help them do their job & win this stupid war & come home. Human rights advocates should not figure into a war. It's kill or be killed.

Posted by: skwg at July 11, 2006 04:44 PM


Weapons of war cannot be seperated from the process of war, which is a political act carried out by violent means. And the level and technique of force must be tempered against the desired political outcome.
In other words, if you're chasing Osama into a cave, feel free to blow up the whole mountain.
If you're going through a town, be discreet in who and what you blow away. Then you must discipline anybody who deliberately goes out of his or her way to kill anything that moves.
Again - back to Clauswitz. War is conducted to achieve a series political and economic goals. Never forget that no matter how many people you kill, they will STILL never come love and admire you for it. Or fully cooperate with you.


Posted by: James AF Compton at July 11, 2006 02:49 PM


I get so tickled and sick all at the same time, watching us ham-string ourselves when it comes to fighting war... enemies that will kill us - both civilians and military personel, wholesale and by any means possible. It is nearly impossible to win a war, fighting with one hand tied behind your back and the other one with a mitten on. I wish both Marines and Army troops had this new thermobaric LAWS and hopefully a thermobaric round for the M203 and similar 40mm grenade launchers will be out soon, if not already. Kill the enemy and destroy his/her will to fight is the only way to victory, and weapons like the thermobaric weapons, with both the psychological and physical effects are the kinds of weapons needed to achieve this.

JMHO!

Posted by: Mark B. at June 9, 2006 03:55 PM


Great new tool!

Posted by: pvtpile at February 16, 2006 04:37 PM


JUST SEARCH IN YAHOO: BUSH MIND CONTROL SCANDAL.
BEST, Al

Posted by: Al Rovati at February 4, 2006 04:27 AM


War is inhumane. What else is it. Are you going to ban war because it's inhumane. Would be nice, but the world doens't work that way. I call the use of these rockets, very humane. They save the lives of my fellow Marines. A real weapon of philanthropy, in my opinion. lol

Posted by: Chris G. at January 9, 2006 12:30 PM


Can't wait 'till everybody has one of these to hunt squirrels with.

Posted by: RL Gumm at January 7, 2006 06:08 PM


this weapon is awesome. i want one.
i think the employment of the weapon in falluja is appropriate, strategic, effective. seriously, i want one.

Posted by: Will Smith at January 5, 2006 05:35 AM


Awesome!! Can you post an NSN and line number so we can order a bunch for our upcoming deployment? Thanks!

Posted by: Owen Powell at December 29, 2005 03:10 PM


...Maybe it's just that I've had a bad day and some of the comments I've seen on this "blog," posing for intelligent conversation, but I've reached the decision that I fully endorse the use of this man-portable FAE on fundamentalist DUMNS**TS such as some of the morons posting, here.

That is all-

...Mere mortals.

Posted by: Johny the Homicidal Maniac at December 18, 2005 08:57 PM


I'm just wondering how soon we the American people are going to be seeing these weapons being used upon US, by "our" government, in their ongoing war against "political incorrectness". As in "Take that, you **** Christians, for being so **** intolerant!" The leadership of both major parties is committed to this diabolical madness. The world is a vast lunatic asylum being run by its worst inmates. God help us all.

Posted by: Dave at December 9, 2005 01:13 PM


War is Hell, Patton said make the B. die for his country..... , as a Marine combet Viet- vet. the French can't fight thier way out of a paper bag ,, no wonder the French lost all it's fights , they sit in a fort, and get there ASS BEAT , that's history. I Trained with the Legion , THEY are bunch of Drunks , and Missfits that EURO, does not want. As for Viet Nam the CFR - (one-Worlders) that control the World , gave away vietnam. WAKE UP GUYS ,, WE HAVE BEEN TAKEN OVER A LONG TIME AGO. They are not going to tell us. I say Learn To speak China , as that is the Military that will be called in to control the next problem , better yet the amerika sheeple will demand it . Think I'am wrong , the people in New Orleans proved it , The government must save me . THATS your god , who you call in trouble is your god... as for our current Military It's too small to save amerika in a Real fight.. and we have some good men in our military , but fact is its too small, and high Tect. is not going to save us, our high schools no longer teach rifle. Protect our 2nd adment. rights. if we still have any men left?????????????????????????????????????/

Posted by: Will at December 7, 2005 08:55 PM


This new weapon is just another toy for the death slinging fools in Washington. War is Money, we spend more on defense and war and death machines than the entire world put together. We should turn killing into theme parks. Seems to be what we do best, kill kill kill. If only we could kill more...

Posted by: KillEmAll at December 6, 2005 02:18 PM


And, gawdam, I just can't pass up responding to Voltron who gets his nick from his fondness for sticking his finger into empty light sockets. A history course might do you some good as well. This fair America, this beacon of liberty to the world, would not be the United States of America were it not for the French. Had they not come here and helped out, you would be a Brit. LaFayette's help is downplayed by our current propagandists but we couldntna dun it widout 'em, ol' buddy. So have a little more respect for folks that you owe your 'free' ass to. merci. And just for you knee jerkers who are for sending our kids to kill and be killed, brutalize and be brutalized, in the name of political corruption, and have never bothered to enlist yourselves, I got 4 looonnng years in the crotch (including 23 days in the CherryPoint brig, my fondest memory). Your turn.

Posted by: beenthere at December 2, 2005 01:25 PM


Hey Willy

You sound way more like a private than a "lieutenant". There ain't no 'democ' being born there. At this time, there's no democ here. There's just poor saps like you on the low end of the IQ curve who suck down everything the bushs and the cheneys say because you have no ability whatsoever in critical thinking and have obviously never read a word of history. These guys are lying right in your face and don't even care enough to build a good story cuz they know their base hasn't got the brains to see through glass much less their crappy stories. Bush the older put Saddam in power in the first place, you idiot. We (our elite, our masters) don't give give a rat's ass about freedom and democ. Money. The Golden Rule: He who has the gold rules. It ain't us, homey. Saddam woulda shot bin Laden faster you'd shit your pants if you ever actually got shot at. There isn't any al-Q/Iraq connection. We're obviously not there to keep the price of oil down! Why are we there? Whose enemy is a functional Iraq and Iran really? Who has the money and influence to buy our government reps into selling the heads of our kids so they don't have to spend their own? Who has deliberately attacked a US Navy vessel, killed dozens of US sailors and never even been slapped on the wrist for it? You figure it out asshole. Learn your world a little, learn a little history and even you may begin to see that your job as an American is simply to give everything you've got to support the American aristocracy(s), whoever that may be. The only governments that American intervention has ever successfully set up are military dictatorships. If you ever DO read any history, you may discover that the 'free' election that put Hitler in power was very similar to the 'free' election that put the bush crew in power including lots of conservatives. And, while you're celebrating Pearl Harbor this 07Dec, you may want to confirm that on 06Jun1941, that scumbag Roosevelt cut off all oil shipments to Japan from ANYWHERE knowing they would be forced to respond to this act of war. We would be nuking people without warning within 15 minutes if that were done to us. The world ain't quite what your quaint little grammar school propaganda lessons have you so obviously believing. There IS evil in this world, willy, but it keeps its head hidden behind ignorance such as yours. Grow up and get some knowledge before you pour forth with the regurgitated shit those assholes are feeding you.

Posted by: beenthere at December 2, 2005 12:33 PM


For sale:

One French issued Military Rifle.
Never fired
Only dropped once

please ask for Sir Ender Mon Key

Posted by: Voltron at December 1, 2005 02:30 PM


Firstly The Best are the French foreign legion,We have 89 differnt Nationalities in our Legion,Our Assualt course in France takes our MEN three hours thirty minutes to complete ,recently a marine contingent came down to train ,Why did it take them ten hours ,and why could they not speak our language ,when every Legionaire can speak at leats 3 ..they wre too busy trying to ram beer cans up each others asses ,........ PRICLEESS ........

Posted by: Agitant Chef , Serge Du Pont at December 1, 2005 10:06 AM


I know lets all bitch about whos got the best marines,how about we get real and realise all of us troops are puting our lives on the line,Its ordinary Americans ,British, and dare I say iraquis ,who are dying ,the more we scrabble amongst each other,the more the Big mouthed puppets in politics get away with murder, our murder ,follow orders ,dont ask why ,pull the trigger be ready to die, For What ? For Who ? ,killing a human with your weapon will put scar on your soul for all time ,war or no war ,its murder and theyre feeding on it like reptiles theres nothing great when your best mate has a ak47 round through the kneck and you look at your arm and your so surprised that its not there anymore !, For What ? FOR WHO ? ,Proffit ,for the bush family, for the Bin Ladens , for the Blairs , THEY GET RICH ,WE DIE ,thats not freedom ,thats a system of horror and evil perpertrated to keep those idiots rich ,and we follow their bent words, WAR ON TERROR ,AL QUEDA ,BLAH BLAH BLAH ...there is no AL QUEDA they've invented it ,another dark enemy for us to kill at all cost....theres no need for any of this ,I ATOR AWAKE MENS SOULS TO SEE THROUGH THIS VILE DECEPTION,NO MORE WAR WE HAVE SUFFERED ENOUGH.
We are being decieved lied to and shafted by these HORRIBLE FILTHY RICH BEASTS ,we are FODDER to them ,be they red or blue ,left or right ,they have their secret meetings to decide wich of us is next to die ,FOR THEIR SPECIAL INTRESTS ...ITS SIMPLE >>>>>WAKE UP,............ATOR

Posted by: TAROT at December 1, 2005 09:54 AM


Human Rights Watch,Their Annual report summing up the year 2001 in the US, was a 2 paragraph piece about the 'horrors' of the treatment of homosexuals, lesbians,bisexuals and transgenders in American High schools. Their summation was that these 'poor souls', (a definite fraction of a minority of the population) would be caused to "drop out of school,sink into depression or even attempt suicide."
Not one word about the several thousands who, innocently going about their business, had jets flown up their butts. The lucky ones died right away....the rest? Well, you know all about them. So ask ME what I care about Human Rights Watch!
W. Daniel
'The Lieutenant'

Posted by: Bill Daniel at November 30, 2005 10:42 PM


OH, MY ACHING BUTT!!!!!
Has everyone forgotten the simple reason for the start of this post?!
Do we belong in Iraq? Who the hell knows? Who really cares?!
Should we STAY in Iraq? Not one MICROSECOND longer than we need to!!
Is democracy worth fighting for? Every last male member of my ancestors believed so, and served, even when there was nobody to be fighting.
SHOULD we make nice and let everyone in the world know what we have in our war chest? Hell. NO!!
(All of you morons that believe otherwise need to be spanked and deported to someplace that you can't do any harm. France, maybe? They never have paid any of their war debt to us and hate us,too. Go figure)
I saw combat in the Navy in Vietnam. You can bet your bottom dollar that NO Iraqi (incidentally-they prefer to be called Persians) wants the US out of there. Yes, we have taken casualties, but don't DARE compare this to Vietnam! What we are seeing here is a NEW COUNTRY being born! Anyone who thinks that it will be short or easy is deluding themselves. We need to 'stay the course'. And every democrocracy based country should be over there, helping a new democracy to be born. If we pull out now, we might as well re-arm every mothers son that wants it and let the country sink into anarchy. And "USA" will be a curse word worse than shah,ayatollah,dictator or even Hussein.Because so far, WE and our allies are the only hope these people have of having a future and a decent country. If the current system is corrupt, then we need to help the people get it right until it IS right.I'm sorry as hell about my comrades that have fallen in a just cause. I nearly bought the farm myself a couple of times and am glad to have the p-hearts. But before you go blaming President Bush for what's happening now....cast your memory back to Mr. Clinton's actions over there while HE was in office! So, you're entitled to whatever opinion you have; just please TRY to be educated about it!
Come to think about it.....let's let ALL the anti-war, peacemongers and whoever else wants to; let THEM go over there and say "Pretty please, Mr. I hate anyone-non-muslim, give PEACE A CHANCE."
Go ahead, Cindy, I dare you.
W. Daniel
'The Lieutenant'
PS....Frankly, I WANT the 'bad guys' to soil their britches when they know that WE care to send 'the very best'

Posted by: Bill Daniel at November 30, 2005 10:11 PM


As for the British losing 100 vs. our 2000 it's simple... UK forces are deployed in Basra, shi'ite territory that is generally peaceful compared to where most of the US forces are (central Iraq, dominated by Sunnis). Also, you contribute what, 8,000 men? Try 140,000 from the USA... If you compare precentages 1.4% killed for USA, vs. 1.2% killed for UK, the rates are quite comparable.

Posted by: Joe at November 30, 2005 08:05 PM


Lovely weapon !great weapon ? ,we(the British ,the Iraquis ,the Americans.etc...),we die, they get rich ,the arms deales who promote this site ,Wake up you fools ,its about proffit for SPECIAL INTRESTS ,their intrests are proffit ours is stayin alive,,,WAKE UP AND DISOBEY,put your guns down,all go home its a bad idea theres nothing great about it,its stupid ,Why isnt Bush out there ,Tony Blair ,firstly they are cowards ,secondly ,they are operateing on behalf of SPECIAL INTRESTS The more rounds you fire ,the more bombs you drop,the richer those SPECIAL INTRESTS get,and those with no SPECIAL INTRESTS just die like fodder..WAKE UP BE TRULY BRAVE,SEE THROUGH THE SCAM..............ATOR

Posted by: ATOR at November 30, 2005 01:05 PM


Well, first of all "tom"...the difference between the time spent in U.S. Marine training and your "royal commando" training is we are smarter and know how to get the job done without taking breaks for tea and crumpets.
And yes, you still owe us for saving your little island countrys' skin during the "Big One",So if you think it's all up to your country to put a end to any war or conflict...WW III is looming over the horizon...so,pick your side...now.

Posted by: Rome at November 30, 2005 10:36 AM


as a Royal Marine RSM myself i feel that i must point out to you your mistaken belief of the U.S armed forces being the superior. I have myself worked with on many occasions U.S marines on both operations as well as in training excercise, and must say that although their hearts seemed to be in the job, they quite simply lacked all but the basic forms of military training. how long is U.S marine training? 10 weeks if that. how long does a basic entry recruit take to earn the flash of Royal Marine Commando? 36 weeks. the longest infantry training in the world. The US can talk all it wants on how it has saved our little island country all it likes, and i am of course grateful for your contributions, but lets bare in mind that what we do and have done for you is more than enough repayment. the amount of US troops that have broken under fire and needed OUR help in rescueing your colonial backsides still amazes me. and lets not forget that without our forces in Iraq who would your troops have to shoot at? friendly fire indeed. well good luck to you on winning this war, i cant see us staying around for too long after losing oh 100 troops since the end of the war. how many have you lost? 2000? again the inferior training. and again the stubborn refusal to realise that nobody wants you in that country. i hope that in your next war you intend to be prepared for it.

Posted by: tom at November 30, 2005 08:07 AM


"There is a town, a town with wealth, propsperity, and strong law enforcement. One day the police just leave. Before long crime is ramppent, people fight amongst one another, chaos. Soon mafia groups start fighting each other for dominence. After awhile, one group takes the took and creates it's own law in forcement. One that takes bribes and makes people pay for 'protection'. Eventually, the town becomes a threat to other towns."

It must also be considered that the "criminal organisation" that has taken over this town could also be called a government. Change extortion to taxes, enforcers to police officers. For example, the English could consider the United States to be rebeling provinces to this day. It is human nature to attempt to set up some form of orginization.

-|Harper|-

Posted by: Harper at November 30, 2005 01:45 AM


I agree with jeff and the patriot, War is hell, it always has been. However you cannot judge morality in war. I submit to you readers an example.

There is a town, a town with wealth, propsperity, and strong law enforcement. One day the police just leave. Before long crime is ramppent, people fight amongst one another, chaos. Soon mafia groups start fighting each other for dominence. After awhile, one group takes the took and creates it's own law in forcement. One that takes bribes and makes people pay for 'protection'. Eventually, the town becomes a threat to other towns.

Moral of this story: Civilation cannot exist without law whether it be just or unjust. The reason we should support the war. Who are we, Americans to deny anyone their freedom. It's our trademark.

Please think long and hard on this comment.

Posted by: Ryan Hebert at November 29, 2005 02:23 PM


Hey guys,
I think one thing we forget about and even I was blind to the fact when I was their, is that they still use old school weapons. Alot of the Islamic nutcases cant afford the new technology and still use stuff from the cold war erra, the APM's are a bitch and you cant blame EOD for not doing their job. These guys clear out a raod and then low and behold someone places these devices after the fact. My uncle said in Viet Nam, they would carpet bomb to form new roads to help ensure that their was no devices like this for the troops.( If anyone could elaborate on that) please do. Our upgrade in firepower will always rain suppreme, but lets not forget that our Russian friends have had weapons like this prior to us. The good thing about Russia is that they do not allow the pesty press around when they do a mission. Did you ever wonder why our troops are under the gun so much? I am ok with the media covering events such as the war, but I do not think the media should have a place in the front lines or be able to expose tactics that our men & wemon use in combat. The CIA and NSA can use pictures from tapes to pinpoint a location, what makes us think that these terrorist cant do the same? We as the United States have to realize that we are fighting a people who have always know war, they are experts in this area. I am not saying anything negative about the US, please understand this. I would kinda compair it to this, say the US went to war against the Korean Rock Marines, I hate to admit it, but we would be taken out very quickley going against these people in that kind of tarain. Our spec ops are the breath of our operations right now, thier intel helps us plan our (what to do) sometimes our troops overlook the simplistics of combat and as to what the enemy uses against us. Does anyone recall the neutron bomb? this would have been awsome to use when we first went into Afganistan. But, do to our media and tree huggers it became a (noway). This post is not bias to weather the war is good or not, rather I am asking the reader to look at some of the points to see if you may agree about what is being said.

Posted by: Dennis at November 29, 2005 12:40 PM


In light of the type of urban warfare the Marines are subject to in Iraq,This type of weapon is necessary to limit the unecessary U.S. casualties such conflicts can produce.
It only stands to reason that most of the "good" Iraqi people are aware of who the insurgents are...So it's in thier best interests to either turn them in or distance themselves from thier strongholds when this type of weapon is unleashed.


SEMPER FI

Posted by: JEROME EDGE at November 29, 2005 06:46 AM


Once again I find myself reading these posts and all I hear is people bashing on the military. If you have not been in are in or ever going to join. Then Shut up cause you have no room to talk I dont car how smart you think you are how much school mommy and daddy paid for.. The fact remains you are not over there you are here safe and sound in your little beds at night.

While men and wemen are being killed and sleeping in the cold on the ground in sand not knowing if the next day will be their last. And how do you treat them like shit. If any one on this page is uncivilized it you for not carring enough about the people who protect this country "that means you too " then. Then you are even more uncivilized then yyou think.. Ohh And by the way I was over there 2 times so I do have room to talk. I was and infintry man so yes any thing we Can get will help us even more than you know.

U.S.M.C Freak 2/2

Posted by: The Freak at November 29, 2005 03:15 AM


Asking ourselves if a weapon is not fit for use because of its destructive capability is silly. The very concept of placing a moral compass on a weapon is unfair for the soldiers that are employing them. if the enemy has these weapons they would use them with great public fanfare. As for the human rights activist, well they are not qualified to pass moral judgments on the war or the weapons that are employed, they are not the ones that are getting shot at, ambushed and attacked. The weapon that is the most effective for our soldiers should always be available and deployed with our moral blessing, after all, it would be immoral to deploy our men and women into action without the weapons that will protect them.

Posted by: louis at November 28, 2005 06:26 PM


Bism Alalh Alrahman alraheem
Inshallah the weapon you have discovered will be employed against the very creatuers of it"s like. the life of many muslim freedom fighters rely on istishhad this new modified wepon you speak of is barbaric in nature. its ineffective against the Freddom fighters of Allah. (id say "smoke them out") which i indeed did yesterdsay. i blinded the kuffar on dirt bikes! they saw nothing of smaw. (loQ) laughing out quietly). therfore however and moreover its imperative to calculate the reprucssions of this new fangled device. Will it protect Marine Corps lifes? good questions are hard to answer this is a fact of life? No you shall see that the American secret service whom quetioned me in Amman, jordan in the eighties had no idea of my importance in the arab muslim world. As of today nobody realy knows what the major deal is. The PAlestinains Specail forces MArine corps of Jerusalem are not afraid of a bombs(weapons) that levels the entire structures ontop of is peacful freedom fighter (fadayeen)occupants. But what if the fadayeen of Allah were the ones who possessed even a more feared weapon then the ones you have in your arsenal(Typical average middle of the road marine corps), would you contemplate using your devices? now that'the real delima, dont you thjink? I have reason to believe that our fadayeen of Allah have developed a weapon capable of obliterating entrie battalions and divisions in a split second and leaving no know traces for anyone to see! strange as it may seem the New deployabl;e versatile Nimir althanee is in existence for some time now developed by the famous abid alkalam shiek bin abid aljabar.
I know for certain that i will see the day that the idgenous Palestinian people of Palestine is returned to the Plaestinian peopel soon. with or without U.S. MArines help.

Posted by: Abid Allah at November 28, 2005 03:50 PM



New National Motto/Car Magnet


Support our troops, Not our president..


yep..thats the real truth

Posted by: FUCK BUSH at November 28, 2005 01:49 PM


While it is smart to try to avoid collateral damage, it must never be the go/no-go decision. The achievement of the military objective must rule.

Posted by: Ed Poinsett at November 28, 2005 10:22 AM


As a generalization, I do not believe that "morality" should play any part in the prosecution of war. We, as a species, have allowed ourselves to become desensitized to the horror of war. We believe that there is such a thing as a "clean war". There isn't. There will always be casualties, civilian and military. We must remember that war is not a tool, it is a great and horrible beast that is capable of acts of both good and evil, not to let loose lightly. However, when it is released, there must be no muzzle. No limit on weapons, tactics, or geographic boundaries. Total war or No war. In this way we can make war so horrible to contemplate that only the truly insane would dare try to use it as a tool.
-|Harper|-

Posted by: Harper at November 28, 2005 01:49 AM


Well said Jeff.

Posted by: Dennis at November 26, 2005 04:13 PM


Anyone ever stop and think this is just a big misunderstanding? They don't seem to understand that we can kick their asses at will if we really wanted too, and we don't understand that they're just to stupid to value human life. I myself believe that it is time to bring those kids home, and don't think we should still be over there.

Biggest problems are the media and negative PR, and not being able to tell just who is the enemy. With the bad PR and media, it is almost impossible to do what needs to be done.
Most of the troops stationed over there are just doing their duty and want to come home. They value their lives where the enemy does not.
When clearing a building you are supposed to give em a chance to give up, and if they won't come out... well they weren't friendly anyways and deserve whats coming to them. I don't care if its a grenade,RPG, a SMAW-NE or converting the building to a parking lot with an APC or Tank. If it means leaving the engagement on your own two feet and going home alive you did the right thing.

Lets give these kids the tools they need to make it home safe!

Posted by: Jeff at November 25, 2005 05:22 PM


Patriot,

Awsome post! very well put. I agree with you 100%. Just remeber, when Bush was told about 9/11 he waited for a few minutes before he left so he wouldnt get the children all upset. But as we know the liberal left would say differant. Ya know, it was just like the tax cuts he first put up before congress. The funniest thing was when the Dems found out his plan came from non other than the greatest Dem in the world! Yup JFK. It was entertaining to watch the dems scramble around after they found this out, they even went as far as haveing the murderer himself (Ed-I'll have another-Kennedy) to shoot down his own family. When the Clintons left office and vandilized AF1 it was a disgrace to the office held. Yeah, getting a BJ in the oval office must be nice, why not teach our 4th gradders the roll of a presidant. By the way dems, your party is the reason why morality is deminishing in the US.God forbid if you are a hetro married couple who want to raise your children with strong morales, insted of reading Pug, in the 2nd grade you get Jim & Tom telling the kids its ok to touch each other. Its a sick demented world as it is. The left just cant be bothered with true diversity. They scream diversity but then they slamm anyone who has a beleif in God and claim that the religous people are a big problem. I am glad that I have a president who is not affraid to stand on his beleif, its called integrity, he has not swayed to the likes of the people and stayed the coarse he set out to do. Clintons on the other hand, well, although I may not agree with every little thing Bush does, am happy to have him as a leader and hope his brother Jeb gets into office to keep the Bush family running things. That statement oughta piss off o few of you high school kids on here. LOL. Have a good day and remember, when the feminest say that the only bush they trust is their own, chances are you may find a few (boots) in there LOL, for those who dont know what that means, wait til your at least in your 20's then you will know, then again your social studies techer may explain it to you during you reccess at school.

Posted by: Dennis at November 25, 2005 01:46 PM


Let's stop talking about it and get into the hands of the Marines who need it now.

Posted by: G. Filippone at November 25, 2005 01:32 PM



"Can we have some of these weapons for the Brits please?"

No. As a matter of policy, the British Army does not and will not deploy thermobaric weapons.
If you want them to change, start lobbying your MP to put pressure on the MoD.

Posted by: David Hambling at November 25, 2005 07:55 AM


Well... There are so many posts on this thread that I doubt mine will get read very much. That really doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that people that speak about things that they know nothing about. I'm not talking about the ones that read the paper and make inferences... I'm talking about the people that meet at the diner on the corner and spread CRAP. They never read a paper and never watch the news... but ask them about current events... and they're an expert. How? Well my professor said... or BUBBA said.

Stop listening to your peers!!!! Start getting your news from different sources. Read, read, read some more. Watch Fox News, Watch CNN, Watch MSNBC, I don't really care... Just figure it out for yourself. Why?

I'm tired of hearing dumb redneck comments about how Bush is a traitor... and how he's an OIL MAN and That's why HE started the war. Kerry wouldn't have put us in this situation. Ehh... and by the liberal rhetoric first 5 months after Bush's re-election, We should be in total CHAOS by now, in a total recession. In fact (barring the hurricane victems) the us has one of the best employment rates it's ever had.
Everyone looks at Bush and sees a dumbass. I'll agree that he's not the best speaker. He's not the best Ad Libber. But I do say he makes decisions that are in the best interest of the U.S.
Disagree? Name one decision that he has made so far that wasn't in the best interest of the U.S. When you do so... Make sure it isn't political rhetoric. Yes... I goad you... Anti-Bush people. Speak your mind... but when you do so, do not use cheap shots like the fact that he's: 1. a poor speaker.(sad but true) 2. Not the most agile or witty person. (also sad) 3. Is an OIL man from an oil family*(I will explain below) 4. Lied or manipulated evidence in order to go to war.

Bush is actually an intelligent person or he wouldn't be where he is today. The accusations that he's perpetrating a war for personal gain is a fallacy. How do I knkow this? There are so many "Watchdog" organisations out there that hate him that, by now, should have hard proof/evidence that he is benifiting from the war.

If you think he's manipulated evidence to go to war... think about congress. Look at the voting record of those that you champion now. Those that are calling for a "pull-out" of Iraq Voted for it at the time.
It's easy to be an "Arm-chair Quarterback" or a Coach that makes a tough decision as long as you think you're gonna win easy. If you think your job is on the line... you might play a little more conservatively... unless you truly know what you are doing is right.
The decision to send troops that you command into battle can never be taken lightly. It warms my heart to know that people care enough to protest the war... Because soldiers are dying. My problem is with those that protest the war because it is the decision that Bush made.
If you had voted for JOHN KERRY, you'd be in the same position. He... and every other liberal other than the few "kneejerk's, voted for the war when the vote came up. In fact... Kerry at one point said "If you think Saddam Hussein doesn't have WMD then you shouldn't vote for me".
So, now, he's against the war. The Clintons never say anything... Why? Hillary has her sights on the 2008 elections... and if she wins or loses... Good old "slick willy" is gonna go for Kofi(not sure of the spelling) Anon's position. They can't stand to rule the U.S. for 8 years... they want to rule the world.
Now.... Criticize Bush intelligently... but back up your data with facts. You know... sources... The stuff you didn't hear from your brother's uncle's cousin's, baby's daddy's, momma's, best friends grandpa. Show me the money!!! I know I say a lot without backing it up... but he's the incumbent president and he's had a few grenades lobbed at him already...

I SAY DO YOUR WORST.... PROVE HE'S A BBBBAAAAADDDD PRESIDENT. PROVE THAT HE TRICKED CONGRESS INTO GOING TO WAR. Fuc it... prove anything. Good luck and best wishes!

Posted by: Patriot at November 25, 2005 03:16 AM


lilspitfire,

Nice post you have there. I had the privlage of a joint training exe. with the BRM @ Camp LeJeune NC back in 1996. Your right, you guys have always been thier, seems like your the only other backup out there worth anything besides Israel. I do see Japan becomeing closer. Whats your take on that? I dont know what you may hear over there but I know that Japan would be a great addition to the family. I have always admired the SAS, very high speed and when it comes to fu#*ups, there realy isnt any, and the BRM's can hold thier liquore very well LOL. I got to know a marksman pretty good from the BRM while they were training with us. The sniper skills these guys have are very impressive. I know I shoot at the hip with alot of my posts and most of them are just out of fun due to the anger it causes the kids on here but hell, we all want the same thing when it comes down to it. Well have a good one and know that the US Marines hold you guys in high honors along our side, God bless

Posted by: Dennis at November 24, 2005 10:01 PM


Can we have some of these weapons for the Brits please? Maybe the Marines could offer our SAS boys some spare ones, cause I bet they'd love to get their hands on this weapon. Anything shiny and new will definitely do!

There's only two countries in the world that get off their butts when the s*** hits the fan and does something about it. Why that's none other than the USA & Britain. I am right you know. We stick together. Always have and always will do because we got that strong connection.

Where would everyone be right now if it wasn't for our troops putting their lives on the line to give someone else the chance to have these things that we in the Western world take for granted..Freedom, Democracy & Liberty. Yes that's right. We take that for granted.There's people out there in the world that don't have the same luxuries as we do.

What did we have recently? Veteran's Day/Armistice Day/Poppy Day. Think about all those people who sacrificed their lives in so many wars and campaigns so that we could be able to do what we want to do. And that's what is happening right now. Troops sacrificing their lives for us.

I'm proud to be a Brit. I would rather stand up and fight than sit with my head between my knees and kiss my a** goodbye thankyou very much! And yes I am a female too so it makes it more relevant to me. I was brought up learning about my country's history and how we've been around for centuries and fought lots of wars. I am proud of that. That's the British Empire..And I am thankful that someone right now is out there defending my rights,freedom and liberty. Thankyou so very much!

Another thing...I would rather we Brits stood alongside the US if anything did happen, at least I'd know who's protecting our backs than alot of nations who stab you in the back when you turned around. Yes that's right there are countries in the Western world who'd do that just to save their own lives.

So can we have some of those AWESOME weapons too? I'm sure we could accommodate the US Marine Corps. :0) Always Faithful!

Thanks guys you are doing one great job out there. Keep up the good work..keep winning!

lilspitfire

Posted by: lilspitfire at November 24, 2005 04:49 PM


Well if you ask me, the whole idea of using the SMAW-NE is a great idea, yea you more than likely will cause some serious harm or even kill innocents, but those are just two components/ facts about war, and have always been. Besides, one more thing about war that has always been there, and in the civilian world, that being risking the few for the many, somethin H.R.A's dont understand, they are under the impression, that everyone deserves to live, no matter the crime, until that kind of situation happens to them, and they lose a loved one, then they say "kill them" they are nothing but hypocrites if you ask me. Where in the military, when we lose one of our own, no mater what service, affects us personally, because we are all one big family, and like with any family, when you mess with one, you mess with the rest, and when you do, stand by for an ass kicking. As I have previously stated, in my personal oponion, the use of the SMAW-NE is a great idea.

Schmidt,Jonathan,E.
LCPL / USMC

Posted by: Lcpl Schmidt J E at November 24, 2005 02:34 PM


Loveyourenemy & youcantseeme,

Ya know, I looked up the defanition for dumbass and guess what? Your names were right their! A couple of kids, oh well whatcha gonna do.(The Bush admin brought us 911) Ok, and did you know Bush is at fault due to my pen running out of ink? everyone has an asshole therefor we all have________ (fill in the blank.)Maybe you 2 are right in what you say. Maybe you are realy following everything that is going on. Maybe you have a relative that is being slaughterd by the US. I do not know........ I agree on one thing that you both say however,(what goes around comes around) Lets take the US completely out of the picture. Say we do leave Iraq, say we stop paying the UN, say we close off all of our import/exports to all the countries. Say we use our own fuel and oil or another source and stay out of everyones land. Now, what then will happen when jihad takes over in France, UK, Africa ect? We should stay out of it and let them defend therselves. We should not contribute money to feed other countries and we should make every Country pay us back for the Aids reasearch we have supplied. We should do away with the (seven bridges)policy we have. If you dont know what that is, well, research it, you 2 seem to know all anyway. When a new Saddam pop's up we should rejoice when he uses biologial weapons on innocent people, but stay away and let the people of that nation deal with it on there own. I think the US should be more like Afganistan, if our wemon question us, they should be bitch slapped, if they cheat on us, a public execution is in demand. Wemon should be clothed, head to toe, and if not mark them as a harlot by carving things on their bodies! We should have professional rapeist like Odae, we in the US know that that will work on anyone who dissagrees with Bush. We should put into law that when you get caught stealing, we should put a tire around your body and light you up in the middle of the street, one of you is in Africa, tell me this does not happen and I will be glad to give you the site where this form of public punishment is. Lets also allow our men who have HIV to have sex with a 4 year old girl, we in the US know that thats the cure for aids. Do you assholes see where I am going with this? Fortionatly for you we are involved, and while the US alone cannot end any of this the world needs a country with enough balls to say (Hey, thats not right) and ask the UN who we pay to get the rest of the world on the right path. You guys fail to mention the timelines that the UN gave Saddam during the investigation. You fail to compair your so called facts with other facts that even things out. This is called bias, please look up that word and try to use it in a sentance. And last, if you realy wanna tell me about how dumb I am and how I have no heart or whatever, stand in front of a mirror, I bet if ya do that the asshole one the other side would love to talk about you feelings. Have a wonderfull Thanksgiving.( I am thankfull for all the idiots who keep me entertained and the highschool kids who visit this site with their vast knowlage of the US. Amen)

Posted by: Dennis at November 24, 2005 01:22 PM


hurray !!!
i have read all the comments i can from a (bloody) lot of insanely non-realistict-menopsyhic-revolutionaries on this site and never before, have i seen so much hatered and fustration from people resident in "The land of the FREE".
The important thing u "nuke troting" americans should rememder is what goes around comes around.
Believe it or not the gorvernment of the united states recriuted and trained most of us to do what they now call TERRORISM,then it was simple esspionage and S&D missions.
Am in Africa right now and its a perfectly good place to view the end of the WORLD from...your world that is...huh huh ha ha ha aha ha. fall off strangers.

Posted by: ucant seeme at November 24, 2005 10:01 AM


I suggest we create a division, lets call it the Sheehan division. We will send these crack troops in to dangerous areas to use the time-tested tactics of dialogue and appeasement to try to defeat America's enemies without a shot being fired. If the Neville Chamberlain style attack fails, the hippies can break out the ultimate weapon: Flower Power.

What are all you pinko hippy peaceniks doing reading www.defensetech.org? Shouldn't you be off dining with dictators or snuggling with suicide-bombers? Thugs can only be dealt with in one way: superior firepower combined with the will to use it. No other way has ever worked, and if you ever read a real history book, you would know it.

Unfortunately, I doubt the Pentagon will ever come out swinging in relation to a new weapons system, or indeed anything designed to actually *gasp* kill people or break things. Indeed, every spokesman for the Armed Forces seems to shy away from the idea that we actually kill anybody, and to try to obfuscate the fact that we are wildly succeeding in killing terrorists.

How about we stop saddling our soldiers with rules of engagement so strict that a terrorist must have already detonated his car bomb before he can be fired upon? How about we stop prosecuting our guys for any minor accident, and start pinning medals on them for killing these terrorist thugs?

Trying to evade the truth in these matters makes us look weak-willed and squeamish. Come out and say it. This is a great weapon, that will be used to send as many Islamofascists to their 70 virgins in paradise as quickly as possible. The more brutal and painful, the more they can feel that they earned it. Praise the Lord and pass the SMAW-NE!

Posted by: PubliusJunior at November 24, 2005 04:36 AM


To all the soldiers: thank you, from a mom in Oklahoma, and a beautiful 9 year old girl who just might get to be an adult in a country of freedom thanks to your efforts.

I know the mainstream media has become an ad-hoc governing-propaganda-program run by what amounts to the enemy. I know the socialist and anti-government propaganda fed particularly to the coast and urban populations for the last few decades has really paid dividends in their converts. I know that you see what is said and done here and it must seem very surreal to you, even enraging on a bad day, and in some ways, must make you feel even farther from home.

But home is where the heart is, and millions of Americans here at home think of you guys every day, and wish you success and safe journey back. For all the people out there so in need of therapy that they hate themselves, their country, their government, and ignore 30 years of open statements and terrorisms and publications all so they can pretend it's all one President's fault, please know that these pansies are by no means the majority. You know what they say, there's one in every family--our country may have a few more armchair moralists than most (not counting France of course) but we've also got strong and honorable kick-ass soldiers like you.

Ooh RAH! From the heartland, wishing you good weapons and another day to fight.

Posted by: McTANK at November 23, 2005 10:18 PM


Let's face it wars are very profitable for some people, our VP comes to mind. Besides it's happening over there so we can't see the pain and misery we cause. Like all the wars we had up to date.
Reading this made me think -
"The bomber pilots came, unopposed, safe and cosy in their state-of-the-art aircraft, pressing buttons to drop bombs, to kill, destroy and maim. And then they fly back to their comfortable quarters and celebrate 'Mission Accomplished'.
"Who are the terrorists? The people, in most cases civilians, who were bombed, or the bombers?

Posted by: Tom at November 23, 2005 11:31 AM


The U.S.U.cK alliance will be booted out of Irak just as the US has been booted out of Vietnam, Libanon, Iran and Somalia. That would be a laughing matter if it werent for the 120.000 Iraki civilians and 6 millions Vietnamese civilians and the thousends of grain-washed American low class soldiers butchered because of American stupidity, greed and hatred.

Dont forget it is the Bush administration who brought you 911. Do some research.

Posted by: Love your enemy at November 23, 2005 09:50 AM


I continue to be amazed at how some talk about this situation as if we were at war with someone who had attacked us. There never was a connection between Iraq and 911. Never. One of Iraq's neighbors, Israel, has nukes but I don't recall anyone ever suggesting we bomb the hell out of them over it. Getting back to 911, would some military genius out there explain to me how a commercial jet could enter the pentagon without leaving something on the ground, or a hole bigger than it did? What would those who think it's ok for the US to do what it has done say if someone more powerful than us came along and threatened to destroy us unless we disarmed? What in the hell ever happened to common sense. How can anyone ever, under any circumstances justify killing men, women, and children who have done nothing to us? Can anyone with the attitude that what the US is doing is right justify their right to inhabit any place on this planet?

Posted by: humanbeing at November 23, 2005 01:08 AM


OOOORRAHH!!!

The spirit of our Marines is to enter a fight expecting to win, & still be able to score a 300 on the upcoming Physical Fitness Test, eventually get some liberty/leave.

--Not pussyfoot around, settle for less, compromise safety/security of fellow warriors & innocent people who are depending upon them to be Victorius.

All new weapons are controversial (i.e. Gatlin Gun). It is the tactics & strategies of the terrorists that jeopardizes innocent bystanders,
civilians, & hostages.

HUGE Efforts & GREAT Pains (just short of sacrificing of our own lives & mission) are a standard policy/procedure among all our military activities these days (Just ask some of the endangered wildlife on any military base.)to prevent Any harm to Any Innocent Entity. Nevertheless, there is room for error---certainly exploited by the enemy.

That said, anything that can give us the edge in battle is the first thing that should enter the professional warrior's mind. Training helps us to properly apply this in concert with our Law of War.

I wager that the entities complaining are clueless when it comes to Military Ops On Urban Terrain. The fact that a cmdr must consider losses of his own forces of near 75%.... just to enter a built-up area. Don't know about you, but I never would ask anything of my troops that I would not do myself; and, letters home about life loss under my leadership are not something to toy with. No, THIS IS A GOOD PIECE OF GEAR.
Thanks be to God! It sure beats the old stuff by far.

HOPEFULLY, many of those troops on our side whose lives were spared because of the employment of this weapon will return home &
RUN FOR POLITICAL OFFICE here in this nation.

HOOOAH!!!

Posted by: Worms-Eye-View at November 22, 2005 07:11 PM


First of all, America and Britain were not the only countries who went to war in Iraq. Atleast half of the countries in the U.N. wanted the war and are participating in the war in some form. Secondly, Hussein did have WMD. He hid them and destroyed some of them before we invaded. He had plenty of time to do this. If he didn't have them, then why was he so reluctant to have weapons inspectors in Iraq? What would everyone have said if he gassed innocent Iranians again or some other country's innocent civilians and we had that same intelligence? You people would be lining up to take pop shots at Americans and Britains for failing to act on it. If you don't believe he had WMD, then you don't believe in anything. You are foolish.

Posted by: Al DiDomizio at November 22, 2005 03:42 PM


The Iraq war would be over and many more civilians would have been spared if the U.S. had just carpet bombed Iraq. We'll remeber that next time we have to bail a country out.
To all of you anti-U.S. folks out there, remember we bailed you out in every war that threatened world peace and your way of life. You still have your freedom, and I wouldn't doubt you have more freedom since then thanks to us Amercians who are willing to sacrifice our lives for ungrateful people like you that are thousands of miles from us.
If you don't like U.S. policies, then stop dealing with us. We'll stop contributing to 25% of the U.N. budget and invest that money back into an alternative fuel source that doesn't pollute. We won't share it with you either so that you will become the so-called biggest poluters on earth, and we'll watch your economy go to the toilet. Mark my words, all these things I say will come true because the U.S. is ruled by the people and for the people, and we are sick and tired of you!
One more thing, we don't want to rule this world, and we sure as hell are not going to let you rule it either.

Posted by: Al DiDomizio at November 22, 2005 03:26 PM


In WW2, both sides killed civilians - many, many civilians. Strategic bombing by the