I’ve been getting a lot of feedback on the Osprey post from Wednesday, which “speculates” on the Marines’ deployment to Afghanistan, and particularly why the service refuses to talk on the record about it in detail.
Well, I’ve got a little more “informed speculation” on the deployment from a variety of sources and I thought I’d throw them out to DT readers for their pass.
There may be a couple other reasons for why the Corps can’t or won’t talk about the details of the deployment…first of all, let’s get one thing straight: all indicators are that the 22 MEU, which has 10 MV-22s from VMM-263 (the squadron I embedded with in Afghanistan) will chop their birds to 261 for the deployment. It’s pretty weak sauce that the Corps can’t fly 261’s planes from CONUS to Afghanistan — the MV-22 is touted as being “self-deployable”…but I’ll admit it would be a LONG, grueling series of flights to do that.
Renting an amphib to ship them over would probably give the Navy heart palpitations on the costs — so that’s a no go after the political pressure of the “first” deployment is gone (remember, they shipped 263’s planes to Kuwait via a solo-mission amphib for the Osprey’s first ever deployment).
So let’s agree that the Ospreys are coming from the MEU. I’ll betcha fleet commanders are loath to admit that they’ll be losing all the ERG’s medium lift capability, so they’d prefer not to broadcast that fact too widely (though I think that’s a pretty weak argument too since they’ll have 53s to execute any contingency ops).
There’s also the potential CENTCOM angle. In order to get the Ospreys into Helmand, they’d have to fly over Pakistan. Now, it’s one thing to fly KCs and fighters over Pakistan at high altitude, but the Ospreys will have to fly well within visual range of some civvies who might not take too kindly to their airspace being used by US forces to eventually help kill Talibs. Maybe CENTCOM hasn’t finished a deal with Pakistan for overflight rights?
Anyway, I’m hearing indicators that jibe with DT commenter “Ed” insofaras Gates might have pushed this announcement ahead of the Corps’ readiness to talk about it. Get the damned thing over there, already! he’s saying. Well, let’s do it.
PS — Am still trying to line up a more detailed interview on this but all indicators are that the Remote Guardian system will be retrofitted to the Ospreys in-country.
He forwards some intel from the Rainman of all things Osprey, Rick Whittle, who covered the plane as a reporter for the Dallas Morning News and took the buyout a few years ago to write his upcoming book on the helo/fixed wing hybrid transport “The Dream Machine: The untold story of the notorious V-22 Osprey.”
I’ve worked with Rick a lot on stories back in his regular journalism days and I consider him a friend and colleague. He forwarded a note to Jamie giving his take on the deployment, which is now set for November, and I invite you to read the whole post at TLOD.
This is the first deployment to Afghanistan and it should be the acid test, given the terrain and climate and the fact that Al Qaeda and the Taliban will surely be gunning for the aircraft if they see it. The Osprey didnt get shot at much in Iraq because it was flying mainly in Anbar province, which was pretty peaceful at that time. It flew well in Iraq, even in searing heat, but most of that country is barely above sea level. Rotorcraft lose performance at higher altitudes and in hot temperatures, and Afghanistan is pretty high and hot.
Rick’s got a point, though I would caveat it with the fact that in all likelihood the Ospreys will be operating mostly in support of RC-South where the capitol of Helmand provide sits at around 3,400 feet in elevation. I’d be interested to see the inside scoop on whether the Osprey can take off and land in a full-on hover in the altitudes of RC-East, though I suspect like with lots of helos (even the CH-47) there are some weight and landing altitude restrictions that will bracket the Osprey’s operations.
But don’t get all excited about helicopter assault missions and stuff either. Yes, some Marine units deployed for combat operations via CH-53s earlier this summer, but I doubt seriously those chomping for a Robert’s Ridge style air assault test will get what they’re asking for.
I will say this however, the Marine Corps refuses to speak on the record whether VMM-261 is taking its own aircraft or will fall in on aircraft in the area (the 22 MEU has Ospreys aboard its amphibs). If the squadron takes its own aircraft, would it self-deploy them or ship them over? We all know the answer to that one.
The excuse given is that alternatively the Marine Corps is worried about “operational security” by talking about how and when the planes will get there. Don’t worry folks, I cried foul on that one, but was still denied any details. I was then told that the Corps was hoping to reduce the stress any media attention would have on the squadron so best not to say anything which would prompt more questions…
Why the paranoia? Does the Corps worry about opsec when it talks F-18, Harrier, Cobra, 53 and 46 squadron deployments…yes, to some extent, but there isn’t a media blackout on it like there is here. Just what is the service worried about? Didn’t Iraq prove that the plane could do what it was billed to do? Why still the first time jitters? Or is it, as my boss suspects, that there’s something to hide here? Miserable mission capable rates, poor maintenance support, deteriorating parts etc.
I’m still on it, but let’s energize the grid to get some answers folks.
Also, one last thing — still checking up on the deployment of the Remote Guardian gun system. We reported that the Corps planned to arm the Afghanistan MV-22s with the underbelly gun, but now there’s some doubt based on the mystery surrounding which planes will be part of the deployment. The 22 MEU birds don’t have the guns, and I’m not sure if the 261 planes have it either…so can the system be retrofitted in country?
DoD Buzz contributing editor Greg Grant has a great piece running on our sister site about maneuvering restrictions placed on Osprey pilots that could make them more vulnerable to MANPAD encounters in combat.
GAO also said: The V-22 had maneuvering limits that restrict its ability to perform defensive maneuvers. The wording in that sentence sounded odd. Is GAO saying the plane cannot perform defensive maneuvers or is there some regulation against it performing certain maneuvers? Not the same thing.
I asked a Marine officer who is very knowledgeable on the subject of V-22 survivability about the GAOs findings. The officer requested anonymity so as to speak frankly about a politically charged issue and I thought it important to at least present another voice in the Osprey debate.
The officer said the maneuvering limits in the official Naval Air Training and Operating Procedures Standardization were set by engineers who did not carry out the full battery of tests on the plane because of money shortages during the operational test phase. The Ospreys troubled developmental history meant the focus was on keeping the plane in the air, not on testing it in battlefield situations.
Read his entire story HERE to see what led to the NATOPS restrictions on radical pitching of the V-22 to lure surface to air missiles into countermeasures and more on why those restrictions were put into place and whether the Osprey can actually endure the maneuvers anyway.
But I also wanted to point out here a great comment that followed the story in the Buzz discussion session.
According to a current V-22 pilot (seems from AFSOC) the critics are full of it:
and lacks the maneuverability to evade hostile ground fire.
Compared to what? A helicopter? A C-130? A fighter? It is none of theseso how can one say it lacks sufficient maneuverability? Ignorance and drinking too much kool-aidthats how.
I have been flying on this aircraft for 5+ years. Before that, I spent 8 years on the MH-53 Pavelow. The CV-22, like the MH-53 is designed (IR and RF countermeasures) to go into anything up a medium threat environment. Very few aircraft go into a high threat environment. Those that do, do it with a gorilla package of support (SEAD, CAP, ect). Further, to my knowledge NO tactical transport aircraft today or ever, go into, intended or otherwise, a high threat environment without lots of support and even then, the threat is usually degraded beforehand.
You take my word for what it is worth
The V-22 or at least the CV-22 is perfectly capable of operating in a medium threat environment. The combination of defensive countermeasures, speed, altitude, noise signature, IR signature and yes, maneuverability makes the aircraft very capable in a combat zone.
Most of these hacks are just repeating what some anti-V-22 lobbiest said to them or some biased report contains. The bottom line here is that this just another effort to cancel the V-22. NEWS FLASHit wont happen.
The USMC has retired over half of its H-46s and is fully invested in the transition to the V-22. USSOCOM is fully behind this aircraft and what it willis bringing the SOF war fighter. Additionally, there is WAY too much support from members of congress, on both sides of the aisle, to keep this program going.
I will agree, however, reliability leaves a lot to be desired. However, I have seen marked improvement over the last 12 months. The issue we are dealing with has to do with partsnot the capability or safety of the aircraft. The biggest issue has been parts that arent supposed to break, breaking. Parts that are supposed to have a 500 hour life breaking at 250 hours and all of this with a VERY immature supply system. The positive side of things here is that he engineers have been very responsive and effective at improving their parts. The aircraft is very capableat least from my USAF/SOF perspective. I will concede however, that if reliability continues to be a problem in the long term, eventually capability will be impacted.
We have put almost 60,000 hours on the V-22 since we returned to flight in 2003. To date the V-22 has been on only 4 combat deployments over the last 20 months. Simply put, we are only in the 1st quarterthere is long way to go.
You all well know I’m a minority supporter of the V-22 for various reasons, not least of which for its superior performance. Most of the critics of the plane have never flown in one — and have particularly never flown in one in a combat zone under austere conditions. I have.
But don’t take my word for it, take the word of AFSOC pilot “Jim” who says the plane is more capable than its helicopter predecessors and that the problems that critics cling to are being worked out as the plane increasingly flies in the hands of combat-veteran pilots throughout the services.
A retired Marine who also happens to be one of the most powerful defense lawmakers, Rep. Jack Murtha, has begun raising questions about the future of the Osprey MV-22 The chairman of the House Appropriations defense subcommittee said that he plans to go down to Camp Lejeune in the next few weeks to do a reality check. Thats where Im going to find out what the hell is happening, the ever-blunt Murtha said.
The military tends to give you nothing but optimistic portrayals, he added. They have been telling me the V-22 was doing fine. Well, not so much, as was made clear at yesterdays hearing of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee. The Osprey does face severe maintenance problems, Murtha said, adding that they are to be expected in the early stages of an aircrafts deployment.
While he said its just too early to know just what to do about the aircraft, Murtha also made pretty clear that he does not think it necessary to shut down production of the MV-22, as his colleague, Rep. Edolphus Towns (D-NY), chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said yesterday. At this point we are committed and we have to go forward with the V-22, he said.
Meanwhile, the Marines began their counterattack designed to rescue the hostage MV-22. I spoke for about an hour this afternoon with Lt. Col. Rob Freeland, an Osprey pilot with about 1,000 hours on the plane.
He made it very clear that the Marines are doing everything they can to bring down maintenance costs. The GAO report presented at yesterdays hearing claimed the current cost per flight hour of the MV-22 today is over $11,000more than double the target estimate and 140 percent higher than the cost for the CH-46E. Freeland said the flying hour cost for the B model the plane that is flying in combat is closer to $9,700 and will come down over the next two to four years as the Marines implement a range of engineering change orders and craft a maintenance contract.
Among the engineering changes the Marines have recently made to save money, Freeland listed infrared suppressor panels. We used to replace those at $110,000 a piece. Thats because we didnt expect them to break, he said. Now the service is repairing them for $10,000 per unit. In addition, they have developed $10,000 repair procedures for flaperons that they used to replace $280,000 a pop. And Coanda valves will be repaired for $5,000 instead of replacing them for $27,000.
We know we are on a path that will get us there, to lower maintenance costs, he said. The performance based maintenance contract currently being negotiated will lead to the longest lasting and most substantial savings over time, he predicted. Due to be signed in 2010, that contract should start showing substantial savings after three years.
The Marine Corps is taking the Osprey to its fight in Afghanistan and its a more lethal version than the MV-22 the Corps top aviation officer credited with helping tame Iraqs Anbar province.
Pending successful testing, the Corps plans to deploy a contingent of recently developed weapons system kits that will provide the MV-22 Osprey with 360-degree firepower, according to Lt. Gen. George J. Trautman III, deputy commandant for aviation.
But Trautman confessed the Corps wont rack up body counts with the new weapon, which is defensive in nature, designed for fire suppression during high-speed infil and exfil missions.
I wouldnt expect to kill a lot of people with this system, Trautman said. Its a very difficult challenge without sophisticated fire control technology to be precise in your targeting.
The Corps has ordered nine of the so-called Remote Guardian System kits, but hopes to buy scores more to outfit the entire fleet of MV-22 aircraft. The 7.62mm rotary cannon in the RGS is mounted in the belly of an Osprey and is controlled by a crewman with a video game-like joystick and video monitor.
The service is also working to upgrade the Ospreys ramp-mounted machine gun to a .50 caliber version from its current M240 7.62mm machine gun.
The Osprey, Trautman boasts, will redefine the Afghan battle space where Leathernecks tangle with insurgent and Taliban forces in small units separated by 8,000-foot snow-capped mountains and vast rocky badlands.
Were incredibly confident [that] having the Osprey in that environment is going to pay dividends for our forces, and thats why we are intently focused on getting the aircraft into that theater, he said during an interview with military bloggers.
Trautman said the Corps aim is to deploy a handful of RGS detachable mission kits armed with surveillance capabilities on an MV-22 squadron bound for Afghanistans harsh environment this fall.
Thousands of Marines are expected to join in the increased American troop presence in Afghanistan following President Barack Obamas call for 10,000 more boots and rifles to wrest control from a resurgent Taliban.
We’re working the details now, but apparently a loose bolt was found in an area near the rotors on deployed MV-22 Ospreys which was worrying enough to Red Stripe the entire fleet.
Colin’s banging out all the information he could get in a piece for DoD Buzz, but for now, that’s what I’ve got.
Be sure to check over at the Buzz for more information in a few minutes.
UPDATE:All 84 Ospreys were temporarily grounded following the discovery of loose bolts in a V-22 in Iraq.
“This is a temporary grounding bulletin issued strictly as a precautionary measure,” NavAir spokesman Mike Welding said Tuesday evening. “If one of those came lose in flight, the worst case scenario you would lose control of the affected prop rotor,” he said, adding that no planes had been affected in flight. “Our priority first and foremost is safety.”
Four planes have had problems with the bolts, which help control the rotors. Two of those are back in the air, Welding said. The repairs take two days, he said.
All the affected planes are in Iraq, he said, adding that the cause of the loose bolts is not entirely clear yet and investigations are proceeding to figure out why they came loose.
The Marines expect the “red stripe” notice “to have a minimal impact on operations,” said Maj. Eric Dent, a Marine spokesman in Washington.
There are a couple more things from the MGen. Kelly interview that I wanted to throw out there for you all to ponder.
First, Kelly showered pretty high praise on the MV-22 Osprey in his theater. He added more to the “higher, farther, faster” argument that most proponents (and some reporters like yours truly) say about the bird, and took on the argument that the MV-22 wasn’t really tested in the Iraq deployment — namely because it wasn’t dropping into hot LZs.
“When I got there there was some criticism that the airplane was untested and all that and that the Marines are protecting it and the commanders won’t let it go into hot LZs,” Kelly said. “Well, the fact is, you don’t intentionally ever go into a hot LZ. If you go into a hot LZ knowingly, you’re probably not playing smart baseball. … Gen. Odierno and Gen. Petraeus fell in love with it … because it zips around the way it does it was doing a lot more VIP lifting that I thought it should, so I took it out of the VIP business and got it dirty.”
So this is the argument I was bandying around last year when I came back from Iraq (I spent a week with VMM-263 in the first ever Osprey deployment). Kelly understands the logic behind exchanging speed, altitude (and th ability to attain altitude very quickly) and reduced audio signature (he said the aircraft can come down rapidly from 9K feet to a vertical landing with a lot less noise than a CH-46 or 53) with .50cal machine guns. And he knows than when a commander can, he’ll try to avoid a hot LZ every time because it ain’t like a Phrog or a Shitter can do much better — they’d be sitting ducks too.
And here’s some more he said about the reliability argument:
“The availability numbers when I first got there hovered around 65 percent or so and by the time I left it was pretty standard at about 85 percent the Marines that fix and work on it understand what parts go sooner rather than later … the young mechanics learned what needed to be done to keep it up, so I think it’s fully tested.”
This is a point I really can’t shed any light on other than to say that maintainers I talked to in Iraq at the time said the down time for the Osprey wasn’t any more than any other aircraft they’d maintained, and was much less than the 46. There were some problems with things going bad before expected and things not going bad that were expected to fail sooner (resulting in parts surpluses and shortages), but that’s what you learn during a first deployment, right?
For the first time ever, a detachment of V-22 Ospreys deployed from its home base in the United States, flying across the Atlantic Ocean to an exercise in northern Africa.
Four CV-22 Ospreys from the Hurlburt Field, Fla.-based 8th Special Operations Squadron lifted off in October from the sand dunes and palm trees of their Gulf coast base and flew more than 6,000 miles to the rock-strewn deserts of Bamako, Mali.
The aircraft operated for about three weeks there in support of Operation Flintlock — a joint 10th Special Forces Group and North African commando exercise intended to sharpen combat skills and build military-to-military relations.
But it was also a coming out party for the special operations version of the Osprey.
“We were really able to validate the direction we were going — in training and development-wise — [and] that we were on track,” said 8th SOS commander Lt. Col. Eric Hill in a Dec. 18 interview with Military.com. “We’re ready for anything at this point. We’re ready as a squadron and we’re ready as a capability.“
An earlier plan to self-deploy a squadron of MV-22s from Marine Medium Tiltrotor Squadron 263 to combat duty in Iraq in 2007 had to be scrubbed because of worries that some of the onboard systems weren’t robust enough to accommodate the grueling long-distance flight.
Critics pointed to the Osprey’s finicky de-icing system, designed to shed frozen water from the aircraft’s wings on cold, high altitude flights, as the main reason why the Marines’ Ospreys were shipped to Kuwait by boat rather than giving the plane a chance to prove its advertised capability.
But after months of training and meticulous planning to avoid nasty weather, the pilots and crew from the 8th SOS made it to Mali after two overnight stops and multiple mid-air refuelings — a major achievement for an aircraft the Air Force is purchasing to replace the venerable MH-53 Pave Low.
“Since this was the first time we’ve flown trans-Atlantic we did do some rehearsals,” Hill said. “Not as long in duration, but to rehearse and refine [techniques] to execute that deployment.”
Here is some supporting documentation from the JAGMAN I obtained. I have only scanned a few pages, including the Opinions and Recommendations, testimony of the command pilot, the airframe change notice and some pictures of the aircraft.
A catastrophic fire that nearly engulfed a Marine Corps MV-22B Osprey late last year was sparked by a leaking hydraulic line in the left-side engine nacelle, investigators found.
The fire broke out about half way through a nearly five-hour training mission, when fluid from a key hydraulic system that powers landing gear, opens the rear door and helps filter the air inlets to the Osprey’s engines poured out of the lines after spikes in pressure fractured the thin-walled tubes.
The fluid drained onto the infrared suppressor section of the nacelle — where hot exhaust from the engine is cooled to cut down on the plane’s heat signature — sparking the mid-air fire which caused more than $16 million in damage to the aircraft, according to the Judge Advocate General Manual Investigation report obtained by Military.com.
Both pilots and three crew members who were aboard the MV-22 for the Nov. 6 night vision goggle training flight survived the incident after landing the aircraft in Landing Zone Phoenix at Camp Lejeune, N.C. The aircraft has not been repaired and returned to flight status, the Corps said.
The fire occurred about seven months after the service admitted another blaze in the same part of the aircraft had ignited just before takeoff. The Corps called the earlier incident a “minor nacelle fire” in a news release at the time, and told Military.com in an email response to questions regarding the November fire that the service “was in the process of implementing appropriate aircraft modifications when this incident occurred.“
“All Ospreys in flight operation have the modifications, including those that are deployed,” wrote Maj. Eric Dent, a spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters in Washington. “The modifications have also been fully incorporated into the V-22 production line so that new aircraft will not require further modification after leaving the factory.
The investigation report, which was released to Military.com after a Freedom of Information Act request, also cites the maintenance control division of the New River, N.C.-based Marine Medium Tiltrotor Training Squadron 204 for allowing the MV-22 to fly a nearly five-hour training mission before undergoing an inspection of the engine air particle separator — the area where the hydraulic lines failed.
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